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Comments
@steve99 clearly I’m overthinking it. So I guess let’s say you can have a bank of 50 TH-U presets that are custom made. You can assign two buttons to go up and down the bank, but then are the remaining buttons assigned to toggle every pedal in every preset in the bank? Or do you only have the exact number of leftover switches to assign to exact pedals in specific presets??
I will come back to you more fully on this, but yes things are good as you describe them. For example, I have CC80 set as global on/off for overdrive and have one in the majority of my Th-U presets. If, say, I have a fuzz rather than overdrive in a particular preset then I can set that as CC80 in that individual preset.
I guess it pays to stick to something of a pattern. My trusty old line 6 pod pedal goes Stomp (ovr/dist)/Mod/Delay/Reverb, so I try to stick to that foot switch order, with fixed sequential CC numbers (80-83) and then a couple of further CCs (96,97) assigned to wildcard pedals on the end (regardless of what position they are in the FX chain). Then I change like for like within that structure. Two different Overdrives wouldn't need a change in assignment as Th-U groups them together for midi control, but what I think of 'Mods' are in different categories (e.g an Octaver and a chorus), so you'd need to manually reassign there.
Yes! That is is great example, I think I get it now. So you can assign something like CC80 to a specific footswitch button, but you can assign the CC80 command to all the distortion pedals across different presets. That’s brilliant.
I’ve been reading both manuals and watching more videos, I think having CC only midi functionality on the X is actually better, more streamlined, and more freestyle, whereas pc/cc on tsm actually makes it confusing and limiting. I’m sure many people have figured out how to make tsm work for them though.
So the X has 3 groups of 7 switches (counting pedal) and you can long press a button to access each group and go between them, making for 21 freestyle CC parameters. On top of that the X has 3 modes which are pre-programmed for certain guitar apps, these modes work separately from the 3 groups. It’s just a mode that takes care of the programming for you. So for our purposes we can stay with 21 parameters across 3 groups to use as we want. In addition, as has been explained by @steve99 , you can map just one button globally to all of the different distortion pedals inside TH-U that exist across all the presets and banks in the app, so it’s not even that you have 21 total parameters, it’s that you can have up to 21 parameters all at once to use at any time in different ways. Not sure if that makes sense but it’s a lot more than just 21 pedals or amps, it’s more like 21 commands. Not to mention they can be programmed as short click, long press, momentary hold, etc...
With TSM you have two host modes, first mode is for the preprogrammed apps. Second mode has 3 sub groups, 1 for program change commands 1 through 10. And the other 2 for custom CC commands that cancel out pc commands? And the buttons that are abcd vs 1234 seem to do different things. There seems to be a less freestyle method to this implementation, based on the manual, seems like certain buttons already have fixed pre determined functions beyond just a CC#. But it does seem like one may be able to switch banks and use more than just the 10 switches at a time. I think it depends on the mode, it’s unclear. Anyway, both of these devices will have a learning curve with the midi, but the X is more straightforward in that regard. The only disadvantage of having CC only and not having Program Change is if you want to control a real guitar amp or other piece of hardware that only has PC option, then you can’t. Otherwise CC already can do what PC does, but that’s not really the case the other way around. I’m writing about these devices based on their manuals and videos, so since I haven’t actually used them yet I can’t claim 100% accuracy on this. The one big advantage I could see tsm having, besides separate gain input and separate output level knobs, is that you can play guitar and sing into a mic at the same time and run those channels out to the house as separate outputs, one as XLRr out and the other as Left channel out. It’s unclear if the Xtone’s L/R monitor is dedicated to each input or if it’s a combined stereo. It does have the advantage of the combined XLR out though. I think that could be the big difference between them, one combines both signals and matches all 3 output routes, and the other can level them independently and separate them. At least that’s how it reads on paper. Obviously playing into a DAW and separate channel multitrack recording is going to be pretty much the same with both, and you can adjust input/output settings on the interface or inside the DAW to achieve the same results.
I mean, this dude really nails it. He has the monitor L and R split and running his acoustic and electric separately, one out to a house PA and the other to an actual amp. He has pedals, Loopers, tap tempo, and even sheet music page turning programmed at the same time. He even has a boost pedal and volume pedal running pre Interface. This thing can handle it all.
And this dude shows how this is useful as an interface for mic and guitar, but also that it’s the perfect device for making GE Labs rig captures of real amps. What great tech!
I’m planning on using this as my 2 channel interface as well, not just as a smart stomp for guitar. I’m sure both of these devices would get the job done, but I’m drawn to the X, aesthetically as well. There are so few devices like this on the market, maybe just these two and the IK stomp which doesn’t compare, different form factor, it has just one combo input, lower audio specs, and no XLR out, though it does come with an attached exp. pedal. Another intriguing device is the Audient Sono which is a $400 interface with an actual tube preamp and so many other badass features, but it doesn’t have any footswitches, which is the whole point of these combo devices that’s so appealing...
.> @JoyceRoadStudios said:
The manual from the manufacturer leaves a bit to be desired. That’s why it’s so great to have a venue like this forum and people like you helping others get a handle on this fantastic technology we have for creating music these days. Thanks again!
Yes using it mainly on iOS. Sample rate switch no problem. I usually use it in 48000.
Midi momentary is not supported but I definitely need all of the 8 foot switches when I play guitar.
Also using it with an expression pedal.
As I said I really like the converter and preamp quality. I expected it to be a bit muddy or noisy but it sounds very clean and high res. Had the IK Stomp I/O before which sounded awful was super bulky and heavy and had very little features compared to the Toneshifter. That’s why the TS blew my mind quite a bit.
Only downside is the occasional display freeze (which is not effecting any audio or midi functionality).
I can’t say anything about the Xtone but I would miss some features on it and I’m not sure how the sound quality compares.
@JoyceRoadStudios
I’m wondering how you were doing with your new xtone pro pedal. I finally had a chance to play with mine today. Big learning curve for me. I’ve been able to figure out how to setup the midi bindings in gelabs and Bias FX for for some reason haven’t had much success with TH-U in stand-alone or as an Au3 inside AUM. I know I’m a little shaky when it comes to Midi and the setup inside TH-U IOS is a bit different from the setup inside TH-U for Mac/PC. As far as I know there is no manual for the IOS version, only the Mac/PC version. I’ve been able to control changing from preset to preset but haven’t been able to control individual pedals. It’s a work in progress.
My first impressions with the pedal weren’t all that favorable. I still don’t know exactly what happened. I made all my connections (guitar, usb cable into the provided CCK3 into my iPad, headphones) and the resulting sound quality could be best described as horrible. Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of patience when it comes to things like this so I was ready to return the unit. I stuck with it and unhooked everything and tried again and it seemed fine. Sounded great, even. I then unhooked the ipad and tried my iPhone but it wouldn’t power the xtone even though I had a usb power cable into the CCK3. I put it back into my ipad and it still wouldn’t power the xtone (or charge my iPad). Fortunately I had an original apple CCK3 and replaced the one that came with the unit and everything was fine. I’m guessing the CCK adapter that came with the unit was defective.
One thing I’m still attempting to work out is trying to reign in the overly hot guitar signal that seems worse in TH-U than some of the amp sims. It seems to work quite well with Nembrini’s apps.
As I said, it’s a work in progress. I need to do some work on my patience, though.
Sorry about the long and rambling post.
There’s a little trick for the midi in TH-U. You’ll notice that the “next preset” learning window has “press 127 only” chosen and this command works. But all the pedal learning windows have “footswitch” chosen and it doesn’t work. All you have to do is switch those pedals commands to “press 127 only” and it will work flawlessly. Also, I’ve found out that TH-U global midi works in categories, so once you map a footswitch to turn on and off an overdrive pedal, that footswitch will do that for ALL overdrive pedals across all presets. So you can map your midi in categories of pedal types or action types, it’s pretty neat. Let me know if that works for you.
TH-U doesn’t have an input gain control, Xtone doesn’t have an input gain knob, and AUM/Audiobus/Cubasis/etc have their input gain control disabled by the Xtone. It’s a nightmare. So essentially you need to turn down your guitar volume knob, or only use apps like GE Labs or Nembrini where you can lower the input gain, and even then I think it’s just lowering the volume of the received input signal and not actually lowering the input gain of the interface. It’s kind of a deal breaker. Professional interfaces have gain knobs for each input. This one doesn’t and it disables AUM/AB. At least a gain trim would have been nice. So I can’t use my Les Paul but my Peavey Predator stays out of the red. FWIW I contacted Overloud and they said they will probably add input gain soon to iOS. I think it already exists on desktop. Still, I’m not quite sure what lowering input level in apps like GE or Bias is doing to the XTone, because running those apps in AUM, the AUM input meter still shows 0db and red dot. It’s weird.
Makes sense that the camera connection kit thingie wouldn’t work or would cause problems. I have an iPad Pro with USBc so no problems there. It powers up just fine and sounds really good if the input isn’t being clipped. The mic preamp also sounds great, and that does have a gain knob.
Nevertheless, I actually returned the unit yesterday. Several reasons:
I was picking up a radio station with just my headphones plugged in and no other cables plugged in. Tried several headphones and different places in the house. I think there’s an unshielded wire in my unit.
I find that the headphone volume has too much background noise with the knob only halfway, and since Xtone disables the iPad’s volume buttons, this is the only volume control you have. It just seems noisy unless it’s set to whisper quiet.
I found that when you press the footswitches you can actually hear it when you play and record. So I wonder if this being a combo unit makes that happen, rather than when midi controller is on the floor far away from the recording device.
My device arrived not brand new. And there’s no input gain knob. So for now I sent it back as a defective unit, but I’m strongly considering getting a replacement unit or downgrading to a regular Xtone. It’s still a great mobile solution for iOS to stage. But as a recording interface, I don’t think so. Give me a Motu with a separate midi foot controller. In any case I felt that I had to return this unit, but don’t let that discourage you. I’m still thinking about getting another, or trying to TS Mega.
Thanks for the great info. I still have a couple weeks to make a decision about whether I want to keep it our not. On the surface it seems like a great little unit with enough midi flexibility to be used in a number of different scenarios. I think where it will help me most is, it will force me to finally wrap my head around Midi and all its benefits. Certainly the midi technology has been around a long time and I’m still in the infancy stages of coming to grips with it. You’ve helped a lot. Thanks again!
@JoyceRoadStudios
Hate to bother you with this one again as I know you returned your xtone pedal. It’s been a bit of a struggle with the Midi Mapping inside THU. I realized that I had only been working with the Au3 version inside of AUM without success. Just couldn’t get any switches on my xtone to work with it. Finally I tried the standalone version and low and behold, it worked perfectly. The problem is that it still doesn’t work as an audio unit. I mapped it the same way and it seemed to accept the correct CC numbers just like the standalone, but nothing worked. I’ve reached out to overloud but haven’t heard back yet. I know I can use it as a standalone but really want to be able to use it as an Audio Unit inside AUM. Just wondering if you had any similar experiences.
Have you confirmed that you have routed things correctly in AUM to make sure the midi from the xtone is going to the AUv3 ? it can be worth using a midi monitor AUv3 to see if the midi is what you expect.
If you turn on the midi learn in the Th-u AUv3, does it learn the midi command you send it?
@espiegel123 @JoyceRoadStudios
Thanks. I finally had that aha moment a couple minutes ago when I realized I didn’t have my Xtone pedal selected in AUM’s midi sources. I guess what threw me was, I’ve been using the xtone as my audio interface and everything else worked. I was able to connect my guitar and play it through THU in AUM but lost sight of the need to select it to be able to map it. Sometimes it’s the little things. Thanks again!
@Philh0954 What I really liked about combining Xtone pro with TH-U is that with Xtone you have 6 footswitches but you get 18 footswitch controls at once (6x3 groups), or 21 if you have exp. pedal (7x3), and TH-U puts their pedals in categories like “Distortion” “Overdrive” “Reverb” “Delay” etc... so you can map just 1 footswitch to control an entire group of pedals across all your different presets. Essentially this opens up a huge palette of midi control, where instead of having 1 specific pedal per footswitch you can have entire pedal groups per 1 switch. So the same footswitch can control Brunetti Vanilla pedal in one preset and FatMuff pedal in another preset. Of course you can manual map any audibles as you like. The problem is TH-U doesn’t have input gain slider and AUM’s is disabled, kind of a dealbreaker for me.
Tell me something, when you turn on Xtone’s direct “monitor” by long pressing E switch, does strumming guitar distort badly in your headphones? The “mon” setting was unusable on mine. Also, when you record something and press the switches while recording, are the clicking or switching sounds audible in your recording? There appeared to be crosstalk in my device.
I haven’t yet tried recording with the pedal because I’ve been trying to work out the midi mapping issues I was having. As it turns out, so far all the issues have been user related. It’s actually pretty easy once I wrapped my head around it. I’ll let you know if I have the same crosstalk issues when I finally get to recording with it. Were you going into an audio interface to record into a Mac/PC or just recording into an IOS daw using the built in interface. Maybe that wouldn’t even matter.
I haven’t used the monitor much because I haven’t really had a problem with latency. There was one time that I did notice just a hint of latency (I don’t remember my setup at the time) and turned on the monitor but didn’t have the problem your describing. It sounded fine. I remember you saying that your pedal was shipped to you in somewhat less than new condition so maybe that was the reason for it. I’m glad you were able to return it. I actually sent in a return request to Amazon because I was having various other issues which all turned out to be user error. Amazon then contacted XSonic with my issues and I have been emailing back and forth with them. They weren’t going to make it easy to return it and I guess now that I’ve worked out some of the kinks, I’m ok with it.
Like you, the lack of an input gain in THU & output control from the xtone has been a considerable downside but I’m trying to work around it. As you had detailed, the flexibility you can get with this pedal, so far outweighs the negatives. Thanks for the great tip on grouping the pedals into categories. That’s pretty huge. Have you decided on a different pedal?
I ordered a Motu M4 to act as my interface, and I will address my midi and live needs in short order. I may just order a regular Xtone because 12 switches and 1 input would be enough for me, but I don’t foresee using this product line as an actual recording interface, which is what I really needed. I could simply pair the Motu with a midi controller, that’s the move at least for a home studio. I could look at TS Mega or Xtone at a later date. But in the meantime I had to return this particular unit, and you’re right they don’t make it easy, they stand behind their product, but my reasons were more than enough. It really comes down to whether you’re happy or not. It’s actually a very good product, but I got spooked by too many discrepancies and functionality issues. You may very well find it perfect for you. I could easily give it another try later...
Disregard, I'm dumb
I think a BIG issue on the Xtone Pro is that the switches send MIDI commands only on "release" of the switch and not on the "pressing" of them (I confirmed this with a MIDI monitor utility that shows you the exact timestamps and all details of the MIDI messages: MIDI-OX on PC and MIDI Check on iOS) this creates extra latency and it's useless to assign it to loopers, The manual details how to access several MIDI modes (latching, momentary and toggle) plus the 3 banks for a total of 18 switches, all is great and the audio quality is good too but the switches issue makes it unusable for what I need, even the IK multimedia Blueboard is better for that: on the BlueBoard it correctly registers a MIDI command on "Pressing" and another one on "Releasing" the switch (as most MIDI controllers do!) and as I said, the Xtone pro "momentary" mode (mode 2) has an error as it sends 0 and 127 at the same time rendering useless the momentary mode!, the switches should be sending MIDI data BOTH on pressing them and also on release!
Anyone else has also experienced this?, Is this a hardware issue with the way the switches are manufactured or is it a software issue that can be corrected via an update? I emailed xtone support and they never replied
Can anyone with the xtone pro confirm that?
Ok here is a little update on the Tone Shifter Mega vs XTONE Pro topic.
I ordered the XTONE Pro to see if it's better than the Tone Shifter Mega and decided to send it back.
Here is why:
The TS Mega has symmetrical TRS outputs (L+R) so no DI box is required to connect it to a mixer and you can use proper symmetrical TRS cables when connecting it to studio monitors.
The XTONE Pro doesn't (only one mono XLR). So you need to organize DI boxes or connect it with unsymmetrical TS cables to your monitors (potential extra noise).
The TS Mega has a lower noise floor than the XTONE Pro.
The TS Mega has 8 midi foot switches. The XTONE Pro only 6 (+12 if you dare to hold down certain switches and risk the confusion)
It's true what @Alex_Zvook writes. The TS Mega foot switches react on pressing down while the XTONE Pro switches only react on release.
The midi data capture/time of the expression input of the TS Mega is seamless while the XTONE Pro is skipping midi data while moving the expression pedal which creates an unwanted stutter effect.
The cable management on the TS Mega is better due to the location on the back while the cables all around the XTONE Pro can get a bit messy and in the way.
These 6 points prevented me from switching.
But of course the TS Mega also is not prefect and has some downsides.
Here are some points that bother me about it and that are better on the XTONE Pro:
The TS Megas XLR mic input only has 12V phantom power which is not enough to drive most studio microphones. The XTONE Pro has the normal 48V.
The TS Mega is slightly bigger and a tad heavier than the XTONE Pro.
I get occasional display freezes on the TS Mega that don't effect it's functionality but can be distracting. The XTONE Pro doesn't have a display which in my opinion is better.
Still the TS Mega in my opinion is the better overall device if you don't need to use it with a studio mic.
I hope that helps anyone that still is unsure. And maybe the devs can improve these things..
This is very helpful, thank you. I’ve never tried the TS Mega, but for me the main drawback would be the mere existence of a display on the unit, something that could freeze in a live situation.
Since it’s meant to be used for guitar on the floor, the absence of real phantom for a condenser wouldn’t bother me. In fact, I downgraded from an xtone pro to a regular xtone because I didn’t need it. And then I got rid of the regular xtone as well.
Another thing worth mentioning, TS Mega has a gain level knob for the input, so hot pickups or hot signals can be dealt with at the source without having to turn down the guitar volume knob. Xtone doesn’t have an input gain knob, and this is ludicrous. Half of the guitars I own are too hot for it, and I had no interest in rolling off the volume knob on the guitars and therefore losing treble. On top of that Xtone blocks all apps from controlling the input gain, so can’t lower it in AUM. I actually liked the midi implementation on the xtone, but what legit audio interface doesn’t have a gain knob or at least a trim button??
Thank you for the comparison. I hope there’s a company listening that will one day release a floor audio interface midi foot combo unit that’s perfect..
Hey @jacou Thanks so much for updating this!, I totally agree with you on all the points!, I actually did more research after my post and after the USELESS customer service of Xtone replied (a guy named Elroy C Hu) saying that those "bugs" are actually "features" and that they don't plan on fixing any of these I decided to sell it (returning it all the way to China from Spain is too expensive) ... Also, the MIDI continuos control on the Xtone does not fully sends 0-127 as it skips every 7-8 steps, so if you see it on a MIDI monitor you'll see going in values of "0-8-16-24-32-48" etc instead of "0-1-2-3-4-5" and so on, this creates a horrible "stepped" effect if you assign it to a volume control or something that requires fine continuos values as you'll hear the values "jumping" instead of a smooth transition from 0 to 127, this is USELESS for MIDI continuos control!... Also, the Xtone has a fixed audio limiter and High-Pass Filter on the instrument input!, I confirmed this running it trough an audio analyzer (SMAART) and the audio limiter is there because there's no input level control (besides the PAD switch) and I guess the HPF is there to reduce the processing power needed for the AD conversion... so after the Xtone customer service also said "that's the way it was designed", so no fix for those either!
So, because of the issues you also mentioned on the T.S. Mega (besides being more expensive here in Europe) is why I decided for neither of them, I rather keep my "not-so-portable" but TRUSTY rig of iPad with a Behringer UMC404HD interface and a Behringer FCB1010 MIDI controller that gives me excellent audio quality and full MIDI control and customization, in the end these "portable-do-it-all" solutions are not professional and lack many essential qualities most amateurs don't even care or don't know about them...
Now I understand why so many YouTubers were giving good reviews about it: SPONSORED PAID commercials!
Thank you for this. I gave xtone two chances, the pro and the regular. And I dealt with their customer service as well, over Facebook messenger, because that got through to them. I brought up at least a half dozen issues to them that were hallmarks of a bug, defect, or questionable design choices, and just as with you they told me it was all deliberate. I hope one day some company will release the perfect unit in this form factor…
You’re absolutely right! I forgot about that!
That’s actually another downside. I use the expression input with an expression pedal to do volume swells and they sucked a lot.
I’ll add that to my list 😄
TS Mega doesn’t have that problem. So another reason to go for TS Mega.
In terms of a good all in one device. The TS Mega always worked well for me in live situations and never dropped out or crashed. So that display freeze problem is not a problem for me. I don’t care about that little midi monitor cause I see all changes on my iPad. I wouldn’t want to change the TS Mega for another bulky setup since I can fit everything into one guitar bag (plus a little messenger bag) which always was my goal 😄
I bought my TS Mega branded as Harley Benton MP-500 on Thomann for 250€ which went down to around 200€ now.
https://www.thomann.de/de/harley_benton_mp_500_interface_foot_control.htm
So more or less same price as XTONE Pro.
The TS Mega here in Europe (Spain) is sold as the "Harley Benton MP-500" it looks exactly the same and same specs, I'd like to find out if there are actual differences besides the name, it's about 198 Euros (224 U.S. dollars) with tax and shipping, The imported TS Mega is about 280 dollars plus shipping and another 21% of tax so that's out of the question... I don't really care about the phantom power of the TS Mega and I'd like to give a try to this Harley Benton MP-500 once I get some extra cash, since I don't play live too often I'm ok for the moment with my Behringer setup I previously mentioned but I agree that is nice to have a portable solution for iPad, Cheers!
Ah, you live in Europe too?, yes, right now is 198 euros tax and shipping included in Thomann
How's the quality of the switches compared to the Xtone Pro?, I liked the quality of the switches on the Xtone Pro, they seemed rugged BUT they were too noisy!, like a ringing spring after hitting them and with high gain distortion you could hear the switches...
Since I plan to use the switches for loopers inside iOS (Enso, QuantiLoop, Gauss) I want the switches to be precise and as I mentioned, I need them to transmit on both the press and release as some looping functions I assign them to "momentary" (doing short loops while I hold the switch) so I need them to transmit MIDI on both press and release, do the Harley Benton does that?
Also, does the MIDI out also transmit the same MIDI data?, Can you send Control Change and Program Change?, MIDI Notes?, how configurable are the MIDI options?, I like that it has 2 expression pedals and if the do full 0-127 it'd be great
Hope you can comment on that now that you have tried both, Thanks!
Another question regarding the Harley Benton MP-500: How's the audio quality of the instrument input compared to the Xtone Pro?, I was just seeing the detailed specs of it and it says the instrument input is only 200 Ohms, the Xtone Pro is 1Mega Ohms which is the same as in professional amplifiers and preamps and that gives more headroom and better dynamics to the guitar sound, lower resistance on the input creates a duller or muffled effect specially on high output pickups... Have you experienced issues on that?... I guess that's why many people comment the TS Mega/H.B. MP500 having a "low signal level"... I also just read the MIDI implementation of the MP500 and seems ok as you can also create 2 custom banks of your own MIDI commands, BUT it does not says if it transmits on BOTH pressing and releasing of the switch, can you confirm on this please? I can't believe manufacturers doesn't publish the full specifications, I know most people don't care or don't read them but some of us do... Thanks @jacou
Hey @Alex_Zvook thats a lot of questions
I’ll try my best. Yes I’m from Europe too right from the Thomann country to be exact 😄
That’s why I got the MP-500 instead of the TS Mega. But I never had any doubt that it’s the same. They surely just put on the Harley Benton branding.
The TS Mega or MP-500 unfortunately doesn’t have any momentary function. So you only get press and no release afaik. I also use it with Enso looper and it can get tricky to get the timing right but works more or less with pressing for start and for stop again. I use the pedal in Midi CC mode where I can activate and deactivate each switch (with led) independently rather than having one activated at a time. Sorry I forgot the technical terms. I hope you get what I mean.
The quality and style of the foot switches is similar to the XTONEs ones. I’ve been using the pedal for more than 2 years now and the switches became a bit softer and quieter which I appreciate. Yes they where a bit too loud and clicky. But that’s pretty ok now.
The whole device is solid including the foot switches.
The audio quality IMO is superb. I’m using an Apogee Duet 2 at home and was very surprised that the MP-500 converters are pretty close to it. Very detailed and clean. The guitar input volume or dynamic range never gave me a problem. Neither too quiet nor clipping. So all good there.
And as I wrote before the Signal to noise ratio is audibly better on the MP-500 / TS Mega compared to the XTONE.