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Tascam model 12 - Mixer with midi clock!
Hi,
I just stumbled onto the Tascam model 12 mixer/recorder/interface. I am pretty excited and wanted some feedback.
https://tascam.com/us/product/model_12/top
I wanna stay away from laptops or computers as I sit in front of one all day at work. So I moved to iPad for music. But a mixer sounds even better, no screen... I looked into Zoom L12 and the like, but a crucial piece was missing for a “solo” recording scenario, no midi and no midi clock.
In this scenario I’m aiming to use the iPad as a sound source, be it synths, drum machines, amp sims, etc... and the mixer (Tascam) as a recorder/daw/mixer. Midi clock seems like a must, to be able to use drum machines, arpeggios, delays or whatever and keep things synced. Btw I also own the great Digitakt which would need sync as well.
The Tascam model 12 is the first of its kind (and price range) that I see can do that.
Is anyone using it in an iPad based scenario?. I was looking to upgrade my iPad, but now I see this as a great dawless option. There’s something very appealing about committing a track “to tape”, and be able to keep adding stuff (AUM or Zenbeats) in sync. It’s got aux sends so I’m guessing I could use a bigmuff as an insert... and I’m guessing I could route tracks out/in to process channels with AUV3 fx (dry guitar -> Nembrini + nurack -> commit to mixer channel) I’m really liking it in my mind...
Any comments?. Anyone using it?. I’d really appreciate some feedback, use cases, routing, setbacks... You guys are always helpful.
Cheers!.
Comments
Do Tascam own IK Multimedia or vice versa now?
Tascam are owned by TEAC. I thought IK were independent?
So did I. But look at the pictures, there’s a Ik uno drum machine, an Ik keyboard and an Ik IRig pad.
ha, ok. Didn't notice ;-)
I have no idea. I do know that I don’t own The Tascam
Why are standalone recorders/mixers missing midi?. Specifically midi sync...
I find it an absolute must for a home-alone setup.
Yes, you can lay down a drum machine (iPad) track and play over it but that implies:
Those limitations were ok in the 80s but I think it’s just stupid nowadays. The Tascam is the only model I’ve found that implements this. Any others that I’m unaware of (in this price range, I know the Behringer Wing and such have midi but they’re a different league).
Or how do you keep things in sync?. Maybe I’m just not getting it...
I'm not sure I understand the workflow you're envisioning, but the thing that jumps out to me is: iOS apps often suck at following midi clock, if they do so at all. So, if you're planning to use the Tascam as a clock source, that may not work out as well as you like. It seems like generally people end up using iOS as the clock source for hardware, not the other way round.
If you do try to use a hardware clock as the master, Audiobus is a great help. It can work as a really good bridge between clock and Ableton Link, and has timing offset adjustment for every destination.
How odd. I’ve been watching quite a few YouTube vids of this machine lately and this thread pops up.
I’ve not seen a single one that demonstrated midi clock. Seems to be most guitarist using it as an updated portastudio.
Yeah, me neither, haven’t found a video demonstrating this.
@wim it must be one of those things that seem incredibly obvious to you and you wonder why no one else is complaining like a madman!.
I’m talking about a multitrack recorder to substitute a daw for tracking and basic mixing, using the iPad as a sound source.
Say you make a beat with Poly2 or Rozetta, anything pattern based... print it to a channel.
Then you want to add an arpeggio, or a bass riff made in DigiKeys, or a Fuguee machine riff... you can’t do it. It’d be out of sync. You’d be fine adding a guitar track, where tempo drifts are up to your precision. But you can’t do that with a sequence/pattern. You know what I mean?. You’d have to hit “play” on AUM or whatever exactly on beat, by ear, and hope... and do that every single time. The timing would probably drift away over time. It’d also be virtually impossible to overdub parts without glitches... all that would work with midi sync.
Am I going crazy?. It seems like a no brainer to me.
One not-perfect but maybe workable situation would be if the “record-play” button on the multitrack recorder would trigger play on the iPad (AUM or whatever), since these things work as audio interfaces and have mackie-control like transport buttons... but again I’ve never seen it. I have seen some diy complicated click-tracks through headphone jacks to sync Electribe...
Bare minimum?. To press play on AUM (or Whatever) and trigger record on the multitrack at the exact same time, a poor-mans sync.
Looking into this too; very little info re. ipad and TM12, however I did find this:
"I'm a fan after two weeks. It's so convenient. DAW controler mode works great, even with Auria on an iPad, works great as an Interface. You put it in SD-Reader mode and can send a stereo-mix to dropbox via the iPad or load wave-files out of Dropbox into the Model 12... " https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1295288-tascam-model-12-a-7.html
Hoping someone else can tell us more about how these units work together on the ipad; I'm interested but not quite yet ready to bite...
@tahiche Over the years, I have learned to have a closer look whenever I read 'MIDI clock support' which itself basically says nothing.
The Tascam specs say:
Now first of all, there is no MIDI clock input so without reading the manual, my guess is that the recorded audio tracks won't automatically time stretch or compress when you change bpm on the mixer - which is what you want if you like the idea of recording a challenging guitar part at lower bpm.
If you want it to follow any iOS app that sends MIDI clock or use hardware (groove)boxes that do, that simply won't work.
All this box seems to deliver is a constant clock source including SPP (song position pointer) and hopefully also MIDI Status messages that include transport start, stop and continue.
This for itself is not too bad already as there are a few outstanding iOS apps that can follow MIDI clock quite well, like BM3, Gadget 2, Groove Rider, Loopy HD, Audiobus, Genome MIDI, most SugarBytes apps, apeMatrix and a few others.
But you'll have to say goodbye to AUM because for whatever reason, all the users crying for MIDI clock input in AUM are waiting, waiting, waiting... and still waiting.
Zenbeats might be a good alternative if you don't like BM3 but I haven't tested it in a MIDI clock slave setup.
Had a quick browse of the manual. It only sends MIDI clock, it dos not receive it. But it does do DAW control via MCU so this could possibly be a very nice fit for Auria Pro if anybody was still interested in going down that rabbit hole. It sends MIDI Clock, MTC and MIDI SPP (song position pointers). the faders aren't motorised though so it's OK as a DAW controller, but not ideal.
@tahiche I think, if I understand what you're saying, judging from what I read in the manual that this desk could do what you're proposing. With the suggestion by @wim to use Audiobus as the intermediary you could very well use this desk to control and record parts from the iPad in sync and as @rs2000 mentioned there are a host of apps that will sync with this directly if you wanted to go down that route as well.
I know it might add to the expense, but if this thing had ADAT ins and outs as well that you could send aux sends out to...OK, it could be a really interesting piece of gear...
I researched the Tascam DP-24/32 a few years ago as they were the only multi-track recorders with MIDI I/O, but the new models (DP-24SD) removed the MIDI I/O. iirc, there were sync and timing issues, which affected the audio recordings.
https://tascam.com/int/product/dp-24
https://tascam.com/int/product/dp-24sd
@tahiche : Someone called resistorman, in response to a very similar query to your own, had this to say on the Sound On Sound forum: https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php
“Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?
Postby resistorman » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:34 pm
I have one, I’ll try it out and let you know. I don’t think it filters anything.
EDIT
Just came down to the studio and fired up Pigments with my Linnstrument in MPE mode. Works perfectly. So it's passing multichannel data including four finger pitch bends simultaneously. It would not make any sense at all to put in a limited midi interface.
I really love this mixer/ recorder/ interface. It's clean, quiet, has fine EQ and surprisingly useful compression. The EFX are serviceable. And it's features are well chosen and implemented. There are two things I don't like though:
1) You can't decouple the headphones from the main fader, which is just stupid. I have to turn my speakers off to just listen on headphones.
2) It's a 12 out/ 10 in interface, so you have to use channels for playback, there's no two channel return to master.
But considering it's a real Jack of All Trades, these are minor quibbles.”
This has now picqued my interest too...
Since I wasn’t quite sure, I purchased a ZEDI 10, which I’m quite happy with. I’d hate to expend the extra cash and mostly the extra size if it doesn’t really fit my needs. I actually bought a Soundcraft Notepad 12 and had to return it cos the usb in/outs options didn’t make to sense to use with an iPad.
But I will jump and get it as soon as I’m more convinced.
One thing that’s really appealing is to Route tracks to the Tascam and apply eq, compression, etc on board. But I really don’t know if you can do this with Zenbeats, which is what I’m currently using as I love the clip mode. In ZB I believe you only have a “master” output and can’t send individual tracks to outputs.
@tahiche I would think twice about the exact setup of all your gear and if that really helps you getting a better workflow overall.
Using FX on the Tascam will give you no advantage over the better FX on iOS plus you won't have the audio tracks on your iPad for editing.
How easy will it be to save and recall your recorded songs with everything included?
Do you really want to mix down your tracks on the Tascam while you have the great plugins on the iDevice and could save everything inside the same project in, say, Zenbeats?
Using a digital mixing desk as a multichannel audio interface and controller is certainly fine but I would personally prefer to have all tracks on one workstation, everything else feels like back to the 70s.
Yes, that’s why I held back. I find the Tascam “old school” ways very sexy, but I think I’d end up bouncing back to ipad or desktop to edit so it’s a bit pointless. Also, i am currently in love with “clip mode” ala Ableton, and that’d be impossible with the Tascam.
Again I think I find myself in between electronic musicians and analog “instrument players” (you know, guitar, vocals and stuff). I’m bored of linear recording, and would like even less screens and more hardware. Audio capable stuff is hard to get across.
Anyone having luck with connection to the Tascam Model 12 Midiclock on the iPad. I am having partial success. Meaning, I can get the link from the Clock tp AUM and other apps but not the start or stop messages. When I activate MTC and the Clock the tempo gets messed up.
Careful, MTC is not clock. They're both transmitted over MIDI but completely different sync mechanisms.
MTC sends absolute time position, clock sends incremental clock pulses.
Clock is usually more precise but also more challenging to follow for the receiver.
Start and Stop are MIDI status messages.
It might be a good idea to read some documentation about what to expect from which.
Ah, I got confused by the terminology - even though I have read that before. Right! Thank you. I will brush up on my terminology. Hopefully I can figure out the procedure for connecting the M12 to the iPad with Midi clock.
If you suss it out let us know the midi settings required on the tascam. I don’t have a M12 but I do have a DP24 with midi.
Glad I found this thread - I’m another one one about to pull the trigger on purchase of the Model 12. As a multi-instrumentalist with interests in all types of music, electric and acoustic, this unit certainly could fill a vital role. But I absolutely need to sync midi start times, & I thought the basic MIDI functions on this unit would be perfect for me. Is there a way to send a Clock start message? Can MTC be used to ‘stripe’ a track for this purpose? Kudos to Tascam for adding the midi, but no start clock msg sorta makes it pointless.
I’m in the same boat, been pondering over this unit. As an Ableton and iPad user, I took the plunge and ordered one today. I’m drawn to it as an Ableton interface with analog mixer feel. Also as a multi-instrumentalist it "seems" to be what I’m looking for. Guitar, bass, Handsonic, Push 2, using a foot controller to loop and record. I of course use my iPads to accompany all those things all the time. All the great synths I’ve collected and effects and AUs must be vital to my setup. I will probably run an iPad with separate interface plugged into model 12 channels. And another iPad either into model 12 direct or through Idam. I will definitely experiment with model 12 to iPad, but as an Ableton user is not my main focus, but its great to hear of its use with Auria Pro. I just want to be able to have everything sync up, LOL. Isn’t that what we all want? LOL... That is my goal...Ableton DAW, Ableton linked iPads, instruments and everything in harmony with Model 12. Fingers crossed HAHA! (a laugh filled with nightmarish scenarios running through head, but YOLO) I like recording songs, but song/jamming live performance in one take is more satisfying. I will report on my findings once I have the unit and can experiment further. Will also be testing audio with my zoom camera with video/audio and OBS as well.
@Scottzilla82 I'm curious how well this is going to work out for you as I haven't found a setup that would work together seamlessly.
Please keep us updated 😊
@rs2000: if it’s about getting hands on with Ableton, I can totally recommend the Behringer X Touch and it’s expander.
I’m still waiting for my XR18 rack mixer with IPad interface to arrive (Brexit/pandemic delays) but I’ve had the X Touch combo I got to go with it a couple of months now in use with Ableton only (you can toggle control back and forth between the mixer and the DAW) and it is fantastic as an Ableton controller, giving me instant 16 (with expander) simultaneous channels of control with motorised faders straight out of the box.
I have it, a Launchpad Pro, my Keystep and Beatstep Pro all plugged into my mid 2012 Mac Book Pro, and they all ‘just work’ right off bat, immediately recognising the current Ableton session with no complex configuring or anything. I just plugged the Behringer in in Mackie mode, plugged the expander into it... and that was that. An instant ‘real live’ mixer front end to Ableton, 16 simultaneous channels available hands on without any bank switching. Astonishing, and for not much more than the Faderfox I’d been looking at before to give me hands on. (£335/£246, X touch/Expander).
Downside? It’s a bit plasticky, a couple of minor quality of life functions are not currently implemented if used with Ableton (e.g. multiple simultaneous solo button select) as it is optimised for use with Cubasis, oh and the fader tops are prone to popping off, but as I am strictly home studio only, I can live with that.
Still seems like witchcraft when the faders exactly replicate the on screen faders with full automation, and all the key functions are supported.
Good point @Svetlovska, I'd rather stay with a hardware controlled DAW as well. So much more straightforward than trying to integrate a hardware mixer with built-in recorder. No proper MIDI sync, no automatic transfer of audio recordings to my DAW, and limited track editing and automation. When recording music, I prefer to go through as few steps as possible.
😄
@Svetlovska Don’t suppose you know if that thing works with Nanostudio 2 do you?
Short answer, no, I don’t. It is just basically a big MIDI controller though, so in theory it should, if Nanostudio lets you address it that way. I have successfully managed AUMs fades and pans using my existing LaunchControl XL for example, so the ipad/hardware controller route is certainly doable. And the cheaper Behringer expander can work standalone as a general purpose controller too, though I seem to recall there’s a couple of important differences between the X Control and the expander. I’d check out their manuals online and see if they do what you need. There is also a Compact model. All have subtle differences.
This review was helpful to me when I contemplated my purchase:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/behringer-x-touch-x-touch-compact
Also, this from gearslutz:
“The X-Touch EXTENDER lacks transport controls, but you would already have those on the full size X-Touch. An added benefit of X-Touch COMPACT is that is can also be used as a fully fledged MIDI CC controller in addition to just the Mc Control protocol.”
Thank you! 🙏