[topic removed]

Philandering_Bastard

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive on AB Forum with a very well-known developer of excellent AUs who was trying to provide him with technical information.

Before that, the App Store description for the JAF Collection accused AUM of having nonsensical logic for displaying AU parameters -- which the dev posted without actually checking with Jonatan (AUM's developer) to understand the criteria -- when the issue was the dev's unfamiliarity. He posted that in the app store description when people reported to him that parameters weren't showing up in AUM.

He has sometimes replied very graciously to bug reports and sometimes not so much. Some of his apps are great and some are unfinished in problematic ways (like Convolutor Pro which he abandoned because it wasn't selling enough copies).

Yup. This. The forum is about as mild mannered a place as you will find.

Philandering_Bastard

@Skyblazer said:
@Philandering_Bastard I agree that pointing issues like that out is actually helpful, but Jens made a post poking fun at the AudioBus forum, and it's natural that people want to vent their frustration in response. It's natural, but...I don't see how making jokes or saying "i agree, horrible apps" contributes in any productive way, to the goal of convincing a sensitive app developer to not take criticism of his apps so personally...in order to get him to fix bugs or change his approach to UI design.

Maybe we could try to outline what exactly we would like to see changed, so that if he decides to change his tune, he'll have a clear path to "being respected by the AudioBus forum",

and if he'd still rather reduce the narrative to "Hero vs. Arch Enemy" after we make our good intentions clear, then so be it.

If you thought I was just saying "Awww, be nice to him!" then...that wasn't my point. The criticism of Fundamental is also valid, but it's a slightly different situation, and if anything, I worry that we were too passive with SonicLab, because they trusted that anybody who teams up with an artist/influencer to make something science-y, surely must be willing to "finish" their work.

@klownshed Very well said.

I hope you don’t think that I’m criticising you. It’s just that it’s nigh about impossible to point out issues with an app without actually pointing them out.

Jens initially struck me as just an opinionated guy, some of whose communication got garbled by the language barrier. Now there seems to have developed some sort of fixation. No idea what to do about it. I like the apps that I have of him. Wish the UI would do them justice.

cian

@espiegel123 said:

Some of his apps are great and some are unfinished in problematic ways (like Convolutor Pro which he abandoned because it wasn't selling enough copies).

I'd forgotten about Convolutor Pro. That really wasn't cool and I think when I decided I didn't trust him enough to give him any more money.

oat_phipps

@Skyblazer said:
@Philandering_Bastard I agree that pointing issues like that out is actually helpful, but Jens made a post poking fun at the AudioBus forum, and it's natural that people want to vent their frustration in response. It's natural, but...I don't see how making jokes or saying "i agree, horrible apps" contributes in any productive way, to the goal of convincing a sensitive app developer to not take criticism of his apps so personally...in order to get him to fix bugs or change his approach to UI design.

Maybe we could try to outline what exactly we would like to see changed, so that if he decides to change his tune, he'll have a clear path to "being respected by the AudioBus forum",

and if he'd still rather reduce the narrative to "Hero vs. Arch Enemy" after we make our good intentions clear, then so be it.

If you thought I was just saying "Awww, be nice to him!" then...that wasn't my point. The criticism of Fundamental is also valid, but it's a slightly different situation, and if anything, I worry that we were too passive with SonicLab, because they trusted that anybody who teams up with an artist/influencer to make something science-y, surely must be willing to "finish" their work.

@klownshed Very well said.

Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety, sometimes a guy is just a jerk. And the important thing is he's unrepentant about it. There's plenty of other options on iOS at this point to be babying developers. There's not much needed to do all basic tasks, and he's not attempting to do anything that fills the small holes, just releasing another crappy version of something there's already crappy versions of.

Skyblazer

@oat_phipps said:
Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety

Nice, I see what you did there.

Well, if babying is what you want to call it, then I guess that's what I'm in support of, to an extent.

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive

I certainly don't think abusive behavior should be tolerated on a public forum. And to be fair, I didn't see his comments.

It's just strange to me when the reaction to seeing somebody doing the wrong thing, is to just say "Screw that person" instead of "Hey, wouldn't you rather do the right thing and be loved and respected by people? What's wrong, what's got you upset?" So as you can see, this is a radical perspective. I am that kind of musician. But too many people in 2020 are traumatized and taking out their pain on others to excommunicate them all.

It actually doesn't feel to me like there plenty of options on iOS for much of anything, it feels like that is becoming true as of this year, but of course opinions will differ on that. It's entirely subjective. Bottom line, I would rather see the apps on my devices improve over time, not get deleted from the app store because "When somebody is rude I call them childish" or "We shouldn't support bad people with our money" unless Jens Guell murders somebody.....and hey, you never know, he might.

oat_phipps

@Skyblazer said:

@oat_phipps said:
Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety

Nice, I see what you did there.

Well, if babying is what you want to call it, then I guess that's what I'm in support of, to an extent.

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive

I certainly don't think abusive behavior should be tolerated on a public forum. And to be fair, I didn't see his comments.

It's just strange to me when the reaction to seeing somebody doing the wrong thing, is to just say "Screw that person" instead of "Hey, wouldn't you rather do the right thing and be loved and respected by people? What's wrong, what's got you upset?" So as you can see, this is a radical perspective. I am that kind of musician. But too many people in 2020 are traumatized and taking out their pain on others to excommunicate them all.

It actually doesn't feel to me like there plenty of options on iOS for much of anything, it feels like that is becoming true as of this year, but of course opinions will differ on that. It's entirely subjective. Bottom line, I would rather see the apps on my devices improve over time, not get deleted from the app store because "When somebody is rude I call them childish" or "We shouldn't support bad people with our money" unless Jens Guell murders somebody.....and hey, you never know, he might.

Just saying for the record that I have no clue what I did there with 'pie in the sky nicety', so I can't be ascribed credit for it whether it was lame or clever (I'm guessing the former).

Skyblazer

@oat_phipps said:

@Skyblazer said:

@oat_phipps said:
Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety

Nice, I see what you did there.

Well, if babying is what you want to call it, then I guess that's what I'm in support of, to an extent.

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive

I certainly don't think abusive behavior should be tolerated on a public forum. And to be fair, I didn't see his comments.

It's just strange to me when the reaction to seeing somebody doing the wrong thing, is to just say "Screw that person" instead of "Hey, wouldn't you rather do the right thing and be loved and respected by people? What's wrong, what's got you upset?" So as you can see, this is a radical perspective. I am that kind of musician. But too many people in 2020 are traumatized and taking out their pain on others to excommunicate them all.

It actually doesn't feel to me like there plenty of options on iOS for much of anything, it feels like that is becoming true as of this year, but of course opinions will differ on that. It's entirely subjective. Bottom line, I would rather see the apps on my devices improve over time, not get deleted from the app store because "When somebody is rude I call them childish" or "We shouldn't support bad people with our money" unless Jens Guell murders somebody.....and hey, you never know, he might.

Just saying for the record that I have no clue what I did there with 'pie in the sky nicety', so I can't be ascribed credit for it whether it was lame or clever (I'm guessing the former).

It was a clever pun on my forum handle, Skyblazer. And "pie in the sky nicety", not the worst thing to be accused of, and probably accurate.

king_picadillo

Don’t worry gents, I got this! @Jens

Ailerom

@klownshed said:
Direct quote from the developer’s website (and yes, he is talking about us!) ;-)

*“This forum, kind of frustrated old-men rambling space, was a sort of enemy from the first day of our releases and we will continue to ignore it actively. While we have got a quite solid customer base and many active supporters in the meantime, some members inside this forum (obviously always the same) will not end their hating triads against us and tell everyone not to buy anything from us. They most likely will skip into any thread about us and our releases and rumble around. But they initially actually loaded ANY of our free plugins and apps released like burned.

Donald? Is that you?

Gavinski

@Skyblazer said:

@oat_phipps said:
Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety

Nice, I see what you did there.

Well, if babying is what you want to call it, then I guess that's what I'm in support of, to an extent.

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive

I certainly don't think abusive behavior should be tolerated on a public forum. And to be fair, I didn't see his comments.

It's just strange to me when the reaction to seeing somebody doing the wrong thing, is to just say "Screw that person" instead of "Hey, wouldn't you rather do the right thing and be loved and respected by people? What's wrong, what's got you upset?" So as you can see, this is a radical perspective. I am that kind of musician. But too many people in 2020 are traumatized and taking out their pain on others to excommunicate them all.

It actually doesn't feel to me like there plenty of options on iOS for much of anything, it feels like that is becoming true as of this year, but of course opinions will differ on that. It's entirely subjective. Bottom line, I would rather see the apps on my devices improve over time, not get deleted from the app store because "When somebody is rude I call them childish" or "We shouldn't support bad people with our money" unless Jens Guell murders somebody.....and hey, you never know, he might.

I know where you're coming from, Skyblazer. It's called 'non-violent communication' and is generally a better way to get people to come round to your way of thinking than being abusive and belittling. There is, I think, a time and a place for harsh words, but only very rarely.

oat_phipps

@Gavinski said:

@Skyblazer said:

@oat_phipps said:
Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety

Nice, I see what you did there.

Well, if babying is what you want to call it, then I guess that's what I'm in support of, to an extent.

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive

I certainly don't think abusive behavior should be tolerated on a public forum. And to be fair, I didn't see his comments.

It's just strange to me when the reaction to seeing somebody doing the wrong thing, is to just say "Screw that person" instead of "Hey, wouldn't you rather do the right thing and be loved and respected by people? What's wrong, what's got you upset?" So as you can see, this is a radical perspective. I am that kind of musician. But too many people in 2020 are traumatized and taking out their pain on others to excommunicate them all.

It actually doesn't feel to me like there plenty of options on iOS for much of anything, it feels like that is becoming true as of this year, but of course opinions will differ on that. It's entirely subjective. Bottom line, I would rather see the apps on my devices improve over time, not get deleted from the app store because "When somebody is rude I call them childish" or "We shouldn't support bad people with our money" unless Jens Guell murders somebody.....and hey, you never know, he might.

I know where you're coming from, Skyblazer. It's called 'non-violent communication' and is generally a better way to get people to come round to your way of thinking than being abusive and belittling. There is, I think, a time and a place for harsh words, but only very rarely.

I grew up on sports culture and am by nature someone who appreciates brutal honesty, so I treat others like I'd wish to be treated. There is a flaw in the brutal honesty route; it depends upon whomever is receiving the criticism to "take it like a man" so to speak and both good and harsh approaches are dependent on the person not letting ego get in the way of valid criticism. But that's the way I believe in doing things; in most cases, it shouldn't be all my responsibility to be the soft, understanding one in a conversation. Sometimes people need uncomfortable prodding or outright antagonism.

Gavinski

@oat_phipps said:

@Gavinski said:

@Skyblazer said:

@oat_phipps said:
Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety

Nice, I see what you did there.

Well, if babying is what you want to call it, then I guess that's what I'm in support of, to an extent.

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive

I certainly don't think abusive behavior should be tolerated on a public forum. And to be fair, I didn't see his comments.

It's just strange to me when the reaction to seeing somebody doing the wrong thing, is to just say "Screw that person" instead of "Hey, wouldn't you rather do the right thing and be loved and respected by people? What's wrong, what's got you upset?" So as you can see, this is a radical perspective. I am that kind of musician. But too many people in 2020 are traumatized and taking out their pain on others to excommunicate them all.

It actually doesn't feel to me like there plenty of options on iOS for much of anything, it feels like that is becoming true as of this year, but of course opinions will differ on that. It's entirely subjective. Bottom line, I would rather see the apps on my devices improve over time, not get deleted from the app store because "When somebody is rude I call them childish" or "We shouldn't support bad people with our money" unless Jens Guell murders somebody.....and hey, you never know, he might.

I know where you're coming from, Skyblazer. It's called 'non-violent communication' and is generally a better way to get people to come round to your way of thinking than being abusive and belittling. There is, I think, a time and a place for harsh words, but only very rarely.

I grew up on sports culture and am by nature someone who appreciates brutal honesty, so I treat others like I'd wish to be treated. There is a flaw in the brutal honesty route; it depends upon whomever is receiving the criticism to "take it like a man" so to speak and both good and harsh approaches are dependent on the person not letting ego get in the way of valid criticism. But that's the way I believe in doing things; in most cases, it shouldn't be all my responsibility to be the soft, understanding one in a conversation. Sometimes people need uncomfortable prodding or outright antagonism.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Thing is though, everyone is different. 'Treat others as I wish they'd treat me' - not sure if this is a reference to the biblical injunction, but if it is, it's not in the same spirit (I'm not religious by the way, just pointing this out). But the spirit of that message is to treat people with regard and sensitivity, in my view. For example, if someone were a masochist, following this message wouldn't give them the right to go around inflicting pain on others just because they themselves enjoy that, 😂.

Since not everyone might have the same robust nervous system and imperviousness to criticism that you clearly do (and you're lucky to have that, in some ways but I'm sure it has downsides too), it makes sense to tailor our behaviour to our environment and the people we're interacting with. That would certainly be my view anyway. Good day to you, sir.

Gavinski

And especially when dealing with strangers. I mean, for all any of us know, someone we toss our words at carelessly here could be on the verge of a nervous breakdown and these words could be the straw that breaks the camel's back etc etc. Just saying... Proceed with caution

espiegel123

@oat_phipps said:

@Gavinski said:

@Skyblazer said:

@oat_phipps said:
Man, get over the pie in the sky nicety

Nice, I see what you did there.

Well, if babying is what you want to call it, then I guess that's what I'm in support of, to an extent.

@espiegel123 said:
If anyone thinks this dev has been harshly criticized here, they haven't seen some of the things he said to other devs here before he had his account removed (perhaps at his own request). He got very aggressive

I certainly don't think abusive behavior should be tolerated on a public forum. And to be fair, I didn't see his comments.

It's just strange to me when the reaction to seeing somebody doing the wrong thing, is to just say "Screw that person" instead of "Hey, wouldn't you rather do the right thing and be loved and respected by people? What's wrong, what's got you upset?" So as you can see, this is a radical perspective. I am that kind of musician. But too many people in 2020 are traumatized and taking out their pain on others to excommunicate them all.

It actually doesn't feel to me like there plenty of options on iOS for much of anything, it feels like that is becoming true as of this year, but of course opinions will differ on that. It's entirely subjective. Bottom line, I would rather see the apps on my devices improve over time, not get deleted from the app store because "When somebody is rude I call them childish" or "We shouldn't support bad people with our money" unless Jens Guell murders somebody.....and hey, you never know, he might.

I know where you're coming from, Skyblazer. It's called 'non-violent communication' and is generally a better way to get people to come round to your way of thinking than being abusive and belittling. There is, I think, a time and a place for harsh words, but only very rarely.

I grew up on sports culture and am by nature someone who appreciates brutal honesty, so I treat others like I'd wish to be treated. There is a flaw in the brutal honesty route; it depends upon whomever is receiving the criticism to "take it like a man" so to speak and both good and harsh approaches are dependent on the person not letting ego get in the way of valid criticism. But that's the way I believe in doing things; in most cases, it shouldn't be all my responsibility to be the soft, understanding one in a conversation. Sometimes people need uncomfortable prodding or outright antagonism.

There is of course a difference between being forthright/honest and being needlessly harsh in expressing one’s thoughts.

"This is

0tolerance4silence

To me, living in UK is a very strange experience. Surrounded by this over the top politeness. This - from my experience - way too often fake expression evokes the opposite reaction from me most of the time. I can sense many times the surprise or offence yet I can't and don't want to adjust, because where I'm coming from, many of these expressions considered impolite. This is what I can bring to the table and how I wish to be treated back. Respecting someone's different opinion starts with admitting the difference - being able to express it unmasked.
Of course the dev has the right to pursue his vision. Is he making these for himself? I believe the best apps (or anything) are born out of passion and not for profit... so I think yes, he's making something he would like to have/use/enjoy/maybe even share... but how does it make him feel that many struggle to enjoy his creations? aaaanyway

Gavinski

@0tolerance4silence I know what you mean. There is a lot of passive aggression under the table in a society like the UK where people often mask their true feelings, usually quite poorly. I never said it was easy to find the right balance 😋

oat_phipps

@Gavinski said:
And especially when dealing with strangers. I mean, for all any of us know, someone we toss our words at carelessly here could be on the verge of a nervous breakdown and these words could be the straw that breaks the camel's back etc etc. Just saying... Proceed with caution

You make good points as well, and I do try not be brutal unless it is necessary or I know the person can take it. But I'm very capable!

In this case I judge it to be a guy talking trash stemming from his disappointment in the relative lack of an iOS market. However, the market IS full enough to have alternatives to his UIs.