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Comments
I would definitely go Motu M4. Didn't know those were class compliant!
DC coupled outs too.
I think it’s unbeatable for what you get, at that price point. I’ve had it a few days working with iPad Pro, the audio quality, latency, headphone driver, all stellar. Probably best in class. Metering on the device a nice bonus. Preamps and converters top notch. Great with guitar direct.
There’s one thing worth mentioning: the loopback feature functions with mac/pc only, if there’s a way to make it work on iOS I don’t know of it. Motu offers free driver download for mac/pc to get loopback, but there isn’t an iOS app or firmware equivalent. I emailed customer support about it and they said while there’s no immediate plan to bring loopback to iOS, they are looking into it. So class compliant yes, but missing this one function with iOS (unless there’s some workaround I don’t know about). Worth noting that Audient devices that feature loopback include iOS.
The metering screen on the device’s face is beautiful and helpful, but it doesn’t feature numbers so I think I’ll add a sticker with my own.
If you are mainly a synth guy with no need for guitars or vocals there’s also the 1010 Bluebox mixer.
And if you want the whole enchilada but with a STURDY portable, flexible, esoteric interface look into Keith McMillen K-mix. It’s a bus powered beast.
Do you know if they added audio interface functionality to the 1010 Bluebox? Is it even out yet?
It (still) only records to its SD card. It isn’t out just yet.
Loopop vid
Thanks @audiblevideo. The Tascam Model 12 is afaik the only other multi-track mixer/SD recorder/audio interface with MIDI I/O, but that takes up a lot of real estate for a small portable rig.
That looks nice and compact. So many choices.
I have a 2020 iPad Pro. I have and love the MOTU M2. I used to have a Apogee One...I don’t miss it.
From the info and opinions on this thread, I narrowed my choices down to the Audient EVO 4. I want something bus powered because my setup will be moving around the house frequently. I don't want a "desktop" setup, so the Motu M2 and other similar setups are out. I've also given up on the built-in mic of the Apogee One or the Line 6 XV as the former won't work with USB-C and the latter has so many mixed reviews. There just aren't any other mic/instrument combinations out there that I can find.
I thought the Xsonic Xtone Pro was the ticket until I learned that there is no gain control for the guitar input (and it disables the gain control in AUM), which is a deal breaker. I know, from experience, that I require a gain control on my interface as the guitar volume knob does not simply control volume and my array of guitars have vastly different inherent volume levels.
So, the EVO-4 with the option of later adding something like the Blueboard foot controller is where I'm leaning. One thing I'm wondering is how bad it will sound to plug a guitar directly into the EVO's XLR/1/4" TRS combi jack. I do have a stereo guitar that splits the strings (bass/treble) to two different outputs, so I do want the availability to plug in two different guitar inputs simultaneously. The fact that the EVO provides a 3rd input just for guitar gives me pause.
Please talk me out of it if I'm missing something or some other option that might be better.
I expect the mic inputs can handle anything the DI can.
https://evo.audio/products/evo-4/specs/
Well, any idea why they would include the extra DI input in limited real estate? Seems like they think plugging a guitar into the combi jacks is not ideal for some reason.
Probably the high input impedance that matches a guitar/bass passive pickups better.
Looking at the Evo 4 Mic/Line input specs, and looking at Motu Mic/Line/Instrument spec in the manual, the input impedance is different. This would lead me to believe that the input impedance on the motu combo input is indeed mic/line/inst, and on the Evo 4 it’s just mic/line, therefore necessitating a dedicated DI input for instruments. A guess based on the input impedance differences stated in the spec sheets, doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t plug a guitar into the Evo 4 combo input but perhaps it’s just not matched as well for Hi-Z.
The Evo 4 reads like a great product with a great price point. It scores very well with Julian if that makes any difference. These videos on the Evo 4 are worth watching if you haven’t already.
It also scores very high on the headphone input and driver, compared to others. It’s worth noting that Evo 4 works best with high impedance headphones, 150ohm or above. It ranks 3rd overall in this video, with motu coming in 1st.
Not sure what you mean about “desktop” setups, the motu is also bus powered via usbc cable and I’m finding my m4 very portable. It is bigger than the Evo but also has a sturdier build. It also features dedicated knobs for different settings and several output routes. The Evo 4 has one rotary knob and you access different functions by first pressing a button, so you don’t have access to several knobs at the same time so to speak.
Worth noting that the Evo 4 loopback is available on iOS but the motu loopback is currently only for mac/pc.
I guess the DI is added as a low-cost alternative to adding another XLR (the interface promises 4 inputs). Compared to a full XLR-combi, it is a less expensive connector, it does not have phantom power, it takes up less space, it services a narrower range of input.
@Sabicas FWIW I took @steve99 advice and got a used Shortboard mkii midi floorboard plus the Yamaha UD-BT01 dongle to make it Bluetooth, and it works beautifully! So as an alternative to a Blueboard, the Yamaha UD-BT01 dongle can really make any midi device Bluetooth, whether a foot pedal or a keyboard.
The Xtone pro was a neat idea combining interface and midi foot, but I returned it because of the lack of gain knob on the instrument input as you say, and the other input was only for mic. That and having the interface on the floor was weird. You could consider the MeloAudio tone shifter mega for a interface/midi combo, it does have gain knob for the instrument input, but, the phantom power on the mic input is only 12v and not 48v.
Even if m4 is out of stock, you have to consider the m2 compared to Evo 4, and what you get for the extra $40. Mainly the midi i/o, additional rca outs, more Hi-Z inputs, better headphone driver. And the m4 is worth waiting a few weeks for. The audio quality between m2 and Evo 4 is probably nearly identical which makes the Evo really appealing as well.
I didn't realize the Motu was bus powered, but the size would also be an issue.
My general usage:
1) I might be sitting at a desk while recording, or
2) I might want the box sitting on the limited space above the strings on my pedal steel guitar console where I'll also have my ipad mounted
3) I might be sitting on the couch with guitar and my ipad next to me while improvising over chords in iRealB.
If all I ever needed a DI for was #2 and #3, I'd just get something like an Apogee Jam. I currently have a Sonoma GuitarJack, but don't have a USB-C adapter and it requires a barely supported app to adjust input gain and change modes. No XLR input either. Time to get something new.
I'm going to look further into the Motu now but I think it's size and knob placement makes it a primary candidate for #1 only.
You can see my pedal steel setup here in the first post. I have my guitar-jack velcro'd to the back of the ipad stand. I was thinking the EVO could be velcro'd above the string or to the endplate of the instrument.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=320715&sid=3bf925566d08f167828bc48d4f6d594c
I see what you mean, you need a very small interface.
I also have the apogee jam plus, I have two of them actually. The xtone pro and later the motu were upgrades and I’m very happy with M4. However you can’t beat the jam plus for portability, and the sound quality is superb. I had it velcroed as well. It can take a guitar input and also a dynamic mic with a little $15 hi-z low-z Shure adapter. Apogee themselves recommend it. Anyway one of the issues, besides having only one input, is there’s only the headphone Jack so no real monitor out. But it does come with 3 different cables to connect (usb, usbc, lightning), it’s very plug and play, and it doesn’t disable gain settings in any apps nor the volume buttons on the iPad. I just needed more ins and outs and a more desktop setup.
Maybe the Evo 4 is your perfect device... it does rate very highly.
Thanks for staying with me on this as I'm learning a lot. You mentioned a loopback feature on the EVO which I've seen mentioned elsewhere. How and why is that put to use?
I don't really know how I would use the RCA or MIDI outputs on the Motu. I don't see using midi for anything other than a foot controller which can be done wirelessly (and would be my preference) or internal midi for use with other iPad apps. Maybe I'm just not thinking of all the possible uses for these features. I don't know what I don't know.
So, as it stands, the Motu has two guitar (hi-z?) inputs where the EVO has a preferable footprint (I could use the hi-z low-z adapter you mentioned on the Evo for a second guitar input?). I guess the features above could tilt the scales if I ever have a use for them.
The adapter I was referring makes low Z high Z not high Z low Z, so it’s the opposite of what you’d need. It takes a low Z xlr like a dynamic mic and makes it possible to plug into a high Z input like the apogee jam plus.
Shure A85F Transformer; Low Z, Female XLR to High Z 1/4-Inch Phone Plug https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006NMUHW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabt1_JadVFb9E75T87?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
There are many adapters just like this but essentially they are used for plugging a mic into a guitar amp or another high Z input, so the adapter matches the impedance. Either way, in your case an adapter has nothing to do with this because it doesn’t change what the actual input is on the device, which is a mic/line level low impedance input. What you need is the opposite, something that takes your high Z guitar and makes it low Z to be plugged into a mic/line input. And for that you get a Direct Box. You can get a passive DI that may be able to be powered from the interface’s own 48v phantom power, or an active DI which needs its own power supply. Either way a direct box takes your guitar 1/4 unbalanced and makes it come out a balanced xlr low Z that can be plugged into a mixer or line level input.
So if you actually really need two guitar inputs, I’d contact Audient and double check. There is no way you can plug a high Z guitar into a line level input, it’s an impedance mismatch. The guitar pickups will not act accordingly and conduct really weakly, and you will also get a disproportionate signal to noise ratio. Yes they’re both 1/4 connectors but not the same at all.
Another thing worth noting is the Evo 4 is not as small as you think. It measures 5.51x2.63x2.63, and the motu measures 7.5X4.25x1.75. So the Motu is actually shorter than the Evo 4, and the Evo is 2 inches narrower and shallower. Is 2 inches width and length that important. Yes the knob is on the top on the Evo which might be important to you. The very very small interfaces are single input like jam/jam plus.
RCA inputs are just an additional monitor route and midi i/o can be used for foot controller or keyboard, though as you know blueboard and airturn devices are battery powered and Bluetooth (airturn doesn’t have expression pedal input). The Yamaha UD-BT01 Bluetooth dongle needs a power source.
I’m sure you know this, but iOS can’t aggregate audio interfaces, so you can only use one at a time. You can’t use Evo plus apogee for example.
I’ve researched interfaces for months. Essentially you want to know exactly want you need, and exactly what you may expand to. You can always figure out how to mount things in a set up. The important thing is that you have exactly what you need and nothing less. It’s worth noting that the motu is not the only game in town. SSL, Focusrite, and many more, are extremely similar in features and quality. In this $200 range, size, and form factor, motu seems to be considered the best overall, especially the headphone input and driver, but many of the differences are minuscule.
I just wrote Audient and will report back when i get an answer in case anyone searching this forum has this specific question. As for the adapter, I should have specified that I looked and found what seems to be the inverse of the one you mentioned (XLR Female to 1/4" female). I was thinking this could work, though it's twice as expensive. The questions asked in this link and the reviews suggest that it may not work.
https://www.amazon.com/Shure-A95U-Transformer-Connector-Mating/dp/B0006IXJ5O/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=transformer%2Blow%2Bz%2Bhigh%2Bz&qid=1606172385&sr=8-2&th=1
Well, I think this adapter is still meant for microphones, and it seems that the negative reviews are from people who expected this adapter to make a low impedance mic plug into a high impedance input, which is what the Shure A85F does. It allows you to plug in a low z dynamic mic into a guitar amp or high z input. I used this adapter to plug my shure sm58 into the apogee jam’s high z input, and it sounded great. Anyway, that adapter you linked does seem confusing, maybe it can match the impedance both ways? The point is, to plug a guitar into a line level input, you just need DI box. They’re actually quite cheap and very useful, for example when you want to go guitar direct into a line level input in a studio or a PA. But once you add a DI to the Evo 4 you’re taking up more space.
I use an iPad 7 which still uses a lightning port, not a USB-C port. Can anyone confirm that the MOTU M4 can be powered via USB-C to USB-A adapter -> CCK? Without power into the CCK?
Also, is everyone connecting the M4 outputs to balanced gear? I don't understand this bit from the manual.
I'm old and been plugging gear into other gear for a long while. I've never heard of "cross-coupled" or "not floating the negative terminal". What sort of cable and/or adapter does one need if they wanted to plug this into an unbalanced input?
DC coupled outs are definitely part of the appeal for me but I don't really get how it would work in practice. https://motu.com/techsupport/technotes/testing-analog-outputs-for-control-voltage-compatibility says the output range is +/- 3.6v. Don't most eurorack inputs expect +/- 5v? I'm new to this modular stuff so I'm sorry if I'm missing something simple. I get how they could be used for triggers/gates but not so much CV. Does 3.6v mean it can adjust a control input 72% of its possible range?
I pulled the trigger on a Motu M2 after much appreciated info from this site (thanks JoyceRoadStudios). In the end, size was the only issue with the M2 and I can get around that. However, I want to be sure this can connect directly to a new iPad Air 2020 (not PRO) with the USB-C to USB-C cable that comes with the iPad and that don't need anything else to make them work together.
This discussion leaves some doubt:
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/37093/ipad-pro-with-motu-m2-power-consumption
Is the power or consumption of the iPad Air and the iPad Pro different? Maybe someone can confirm, but I’d assume they’re the same.
I use the white usbc cord that came with my iPad Pro, directly into the Motu M4, and it works beautifully with more than enough power for phantom as well. So the usbc to usb chord that comes with the motu isn’t useful to me, unless I want to use a usb hub or have a usbc-usb adapter which is common. Keep in mind that bus powered interfaces will drain your iPad battery, so be mindful of your screen brightness and disable other battery sucking background features on the iPad. I don’t see why you’d possibly have any problem powering the M2 with your iPad, they are class compliant and bus powered. Before I bought the m4 I asked others if the bus power can handle phantom power, and it was confirmed.
Check page 17 of the manual here https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/usb-c-audio/M_Series_User_Guide.pdf
According to the manual you have to use a powered hub with a Lightning connector based iPad.
It may actually work without one, sometimes USB interfaces do. But, it depends on the iPad side deciding if the device is drawing more power than the Lightning spec allows.
I feel like I’m missing something when I bought and use the bus-powered Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 3rd gen with my 2020 iPad Pro but don’t see anyone typically mentioning it. Why is it out of favor? Hard to tell how these alternatives differentiate themselves.
The new iPads don't use lightning at all. The following suggests that this is going to work. They use the word, "should"........
https://motu.com/techsupport/technotes/m-series-ios-power