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O.T.: An extraordinarily dark day in American history...
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What does what you said even mean?
Yes, multi-culturalism is still a thing. Some people are comfortable living in a community with people that share different beliefs and cultural backgrounds and don't feel that their identity is threatened by such. Some people don't feel that white European culture needs to be the dominant one in the U.S -- and don't feel that society is made weaker when culture changes in response to those influences.
Cultural appropriation is another issue entirely.
What I mean is how can culture change for the better if some influences are off limits and attempts to adopt/adapt them are attacked as being cultural appropriation?
Huh?
You are confusing multiculturalism and the issues of cultural appropriation.
In many parts of the country, people of different cultures live together and the people living there don’t feel threatened by it and don’t feel like their culture is the “correct” or true culture. In those parts of the country, people don’t feel that the country is made worse when the amount of Western European influence declines. They don’t view white Americans or farmers or Christians as somehow more American than people that aren’t those things.
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The issue of cultural appropriation isn’t about being influenced by other cultures, it has to do with taking ideas and work of disempowered peoples and claiming them as your own and profiting from them (when the people the ideas were taken from have not profited at all) and taking credit for them.
I am sorry Max. You are way off-base with both what is meant by cultural appropriation and the history behind the issue. As I wrote earlier .. and have mentioned in other conversations with you... it is not about influence.
I think it is easy for white Europeans to have no idea of the social and economic impact that intellectual theft (not influence) has had on artists who had no access to the marketplace but whose work was generated huge profits for decades for people that simply repackaged that work and presented it as their own with access to a marketplace to which the creators were denied.
There is a difference between influence and theft.
In addition to the economic impact, there is a social impact. One hears white supremacists talk about the superiority of European culture to other cultures completely unaware how the music they listen to is largely the fruit of non-European and non-white influences.
Sorry Max, there is more to music than the tuning system.
If you really feel that rhythm and structure and harmony aren’t equal partners, you are missing out on a lot..also if you don’t recognize the richness of various styles and eras of composition and orchestration., I don’t know what to say.
It is hard for me to believe that you really believe all music is the same and that creators shouldn’t be entitled to profit fairly from their creations or be given credit.
If you think jazz sounds the same as baroque music, that’s your loss.
Not what I said or relevant to what I said. It is hard for me to see how your response is germane to anything that I said.
You are the person that argued that the distinguishing characteristic of music is the intonation system and dismissed rhythm as being important.
Max just ejaculates words and when it is pointed out that they make no sense, his response is always the same: LOL.
Aren’t we going off-topic here?
Not at all. Honestly, it doesn't seem like you are even making an attempt to understand the point I am making. It is hard for me to see how anything I said relates to me or some other individual having made money or not.
If that is how you interpreted my comments, that was not my point.
You seem uninterested in the fact that generations of artists were denied an ability to be compensated fairly for their work or even given credit for it -- you also seem to be totally dismissive that their work had a fundamental impact on modern music.
Now, of course, you didn't use those words because your responses have all been semi non-sequiturs
Such as:
And what is the defensiveness about European culture? I am simply pointing out that you as a person from the dominant culture are not in a place to be so dismissive of the legitimacy of arguments put forth by the people's that have made the case that their cultures have suffered as a result of generations of uncompensated and uncredited use of their work. You have seemed in this discussion and others totally dismissive (and uneducated) about the possibility that people of non-European cultures (African Americans, indigenous peoples, whatever) have been denied the compensation and credit which is their due.
Not really. In the end this is all about a group of very special people marching to the beat of their own drum. Sometimes you just gotta go zen and let the Orwellian rhythm of boots stomping on human faces wash over you. I mean what is the sound of one drum beating anyway? Not much!
Why don’t you go back to the hole you came from??? Jesus don’t you have anything better to do then badger America???
You keep side-stepping and confounding the issue raised. You don’t seem interested in exploring the question.
A brief goog seems to indicate there were tons of European owners but sounds like they kept most of that dirty business across the pond...?
Maybe I can offer a reverse example to make a point. When Wynton Marsalis plays or records Bach, he does so with reference to the culture that produced Bach's music, i.e. the western twelve tone system developed over several centuries. When Eric Clapton pulls out his acoustic guitar and does a solo performance of a Robert Johnson or Bill Broonzy composition, he does so with praise for those performers and the culture that they were heir to, both its artistic positives and social constraints.
Another example in American culture shows the cultural appropriation model more clearly. In the early days of rock n' roll, black songwriters and performers often languished (or stagnated) in obscurity while white performers of their material (i.e. Elvis Presley) topped the charts. Racism and discrimination played a huge part in that situation. However, the black artists in those days dressed as white western culture did at the time. Shirts and ties, dresses, etc.
With the cultural awakening of the 60s, black artists and intellectuals began to explore the roots of their African heritage in dress, food, music, and artistic style. They did so in recognition of the fact that their adoption of western dress had been culturally imposed as a condition of their enslavement (and later segregation). A white person adopting African derived hairstyles or dress isn't getting in touch with their ancestral culture. Indeed to do that, a white person would just revert to dressing in an earlier western fashion from a previous century. (Doublets and stockings, anyone?)
Given the long sad history of slavery, segregation, discrimination, abuse, and murder, yes, murder inflicted on people of African descent, it should not be surprising that any attempts by white artists or social climbers looking to be "cool" by adopting now perceived "cool" black fashionable dress or artistic moves would be seen by the black community as offensive, and not a tribute to black "coolness".
Disclaimer: I'm not a person of colour so this view may be lacking. Maybe contributors to this thread who have experienced this directly can provide a more focused view (and/or correct my errors, omissions, etc.)
Semantic dance. I suppose by ‘have’ and ‘had’ you mean serving tea and biscuits on Downing street?
My goog seemed to indicate the existence of tons of official legal european documents that said they were owned by Europeans. to ‘sell’ someone you claim to ‘own’ them, so you ‘have’ them. I ‘have’ funds in an offshore bank etc. Yeehaw, Semantic Dance!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/africa_article_01.shtml#four