Off-Topic discussion about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency.

ExAsperis99

I mean, I get that you're trying to be glib, and it's clever rhetorical way of dismissing a system that is (inconveniently, for your argument) successful by linking it to Nazism. But do you know any Germans? Do you have any idea how postwar generations of Germans have dealt with the Holocaust?

richardyot

@ervin said:

@richardyot said:
To be fair people have been saying for over 200 years that machines are going to replace people in the workforce, but that's not how it pans out. What happens is that as new technologies emerge we find new jobs to go with them.

One hundred years ago there were no computer programmers or air traffic controllers - as technology displaces people from some jobs it simultaneously creates new ones.

Personally I don't think there will ever be a world where there is no work for humans to do. We will always find new ways of working.

I actually agree with you Richard - which is why I pointed out it was a thought experiment, with no regard to how likely the scenario was.

I think it's still a valid question - how do you deal politically with a large number of people who feel they are losing out and their only remaining weapon is their vote. The rather wild experiments conducted in this area in the UK and USA over the last 5 years are not exactly promising.

Yeah it is a valid question, and one that doesn’t have any easy answers. The US is in real danger of drifting towards authoritarian minority rule, and was prevented from doing so last year only by the judiciary and a handful of officials with integrity. Next time things might not work out so well.

I think some part of the solution is to address people’s economic concerns. Large parts of western economies have been hollowed out by globalisation. People need meaningful and well-paid work, and without that then you leave a gaping void that can be filled with cultural grievances.

espiegel123

@richardyot said:

@ervin said:

@richardyot said:
To be fair people have been saying for over 200 years that machines are going to replace people in the workforce, but that's not how it pans out. What happens is that as new technologies emerge we find new jobs to go with them.

One hundred years ago there were no computer programmers or air traffic controllers - as technology displaces people from some jobs it simultaneously creates new ones.

Personally I don't think there will ever be a world where there is no work for humans to do. We will always find new ways of working.

I actually agree with you Richard - which is why I pointed out it was a thought experiment, with no regard to how likely the scenario was.

I think it's still a valid question - how do you deal politically with a large number of people who feel they are losing out and their only remaining weapon is their vote. The rather wild experiments conducted in this area in the UK and USA over the last 5 years are not exactly promising.

Yeah it is a valid question, and one that doesn’t have any easy answers. The US is in real danger of drifting towards authoritarian minority rule, and was prevented from doing so last year only by the judiciary and a handful of officials with integrity. Next time things might not work out so well.

I think some part of the solution is to address people’s economic concerns. Large parts of western economies have been hollowed out by globalisation. People need meaningful and well-paid work, and without that then you leave a gaping void that can be filled with cultural grievances.

In the US, the slide towards authoritarianism is less the result of economic divides than a combination of cultural divide and a political system with structural weaknesses (anti-democratic mechanisms coming into play in a way they have not in the past at this scale due to a confluence of factors).

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:
Your qualifier ". I was referring to individual and family decisions which no government or mob of people should influence."

The government in a democracy is how society expresses its will and determines the laws. You continue to imply that the individual gets to pick and choose.

It appears you do not understand how constitutionally protected individual rights work in the US. I’m not addressing the failings of other countries. In the US, individuals have protected rights. Not mobs, not groups, not crowds.

I said nothing about mobs determining rules. You implied that the individual gets to be the arbiter of whether the government is within bounds or not. Societies don't work that way. The individual isn't the final arbiter.

I have no idea what you mean that groups don't have rights...or what that has to do with what you are saying. Can you explain?

NeuM wrote: " It appears you do not understand how constitutionally protected individual rights work in the US."

I disagree.

You can disagree all you want, but it appears you do not understand. Individual rights are foundational in the US.

https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/bill-of-rights

I haven't said that individual rights aren't foundational. I am saying the individual is not the final arbiter. Society/government/judicial system is the arbiter. A society can't function otherwise. It is the nature of things for there to be tension between society and some individuals. If the tension grows widespread , the result is foundational change. I

The website you linked to presents a right-wing libertarian (Koch brother funded) interpretation of the constitution. You are entitled to any beliefs you want. That interpretation of the constitution is an interpretation that grows from a particular political belief system. You are certainly entitled to those beliefs. In my opinion, it is not correct to treat your interpretation as the single correct interpretation of the constitution. Or to accuse people of ignorance for not sharing your interpretation.

I don’t mind if you take issue with that particular source, since it was merely meant to inform. However, the full text of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights are readily available for examination by anyone. Individual interpretation may vary, but it is through Supreme Court challenges that those details are addressed.

The US Constitution is a restraint on the Federal government, not a free pass.

wim

So? Anyone still feel like talking about Bitcoin and crypto currency? I thought that part was kinda interesting ... while it lasted.

Gavinski

@wim said:
So? Anyone still feel like talking about Bitcoin and crypto currency? I thought that part was kinda interesting ... while it lasted.

Yup, I would prefer we got back to the crypto thing, the broader economic / political discussion is going nowhere, no one from one side in this case is going to be influenced by the other, we've been here before many times.

AudioGus

Has any system been able to run long enough to even be declared any sort of real winner? Asking for a friend who never went to school.

NeuM

@wim said:
So? Anyone still feel like talking about Bitcoin and crypto currency? I thought that part was kinda interesting ... while it lasted.

LOL. Whaddya got? Let’s discuss it.

wim

I got nothin'. Seems like nobody else does either. I think I'm gonna just move on.

dendy

@wim
There was a lot of food for thought in the video about people in the US using Bitcoin to more safely send funds back to relatives in El Salvador. Much positive and some not so much in the light of the recent valuation fall.

It's this, i already mentioned at some previous page :
https://strike.me/

They're working of adding support fir EU. Zero fees instant payment. It runs on lightning network so theoretic transaction capacity is few orders magnitude higher than VISA for example. (lighning is capable of pricessing millions of transactions per second)

It's really amazing tech, it's even capable of realtime cent-level micropayments (like you ageee with somebody on payment 1 cent per second his work and then it streams money during defined time frame with that speed. Sick tech)

Most importantly - you are sending fiat and recipient receives fiat too, bitcoin network with lightning is used just as transaction settlement layer. Which means users are totally unaffected by Bitcoin price. Soon they will release also physical card.

Of course it was dismissed by Richard, according him it has no advantages over PayPal :-)))

@colonel_mustard
It's broken past 35, anyway, which seemed to be a sticky number.

I'm absolutely confident without any doubt we will see 6 digits at the end of this year ;-) Pity i haven't free euroshitcoin at the moment, to buy more 🥲

It may go short term even lower and it will look like shit probably during whole summer. But wait for autum :-)

richardyot

@wim said:
So? Anyone still feel like talking about Bitcoin and crypto currency? I thought that part was kinda interesting ... while it lasted.

To be fair Bitcoin is essentially an ideological project, based on hard-money economics and libertarianism, so those subjects aren't really off-topic

I'm sure we'll get back to the market moves once the price shifts in one direction or the other.

dendy

When we are in area of philosophy and subjective thoughts. I have one golden rule.

In case i'm not sure what should be my opinion on some topic, i look who are opponents with negative approach. (This is how my Bitcoin journey began few years ago)

Now, who is fighting against Bitcoin most loudly, banning it and trying to prevent people use it using law ?

Nigeria, India, China, North Korea, Iran,.. Basically less democratic and more totalitarian regime, harder fighting against bitcoin. Countries with high level of propaganda, brainwashing using state owned media (like that video hownwe all gonna die when bitcoin goes mainstream i shared here), strong totalitarian regimes which tends to supress human rights and uses all available tools to make from their citisens average obeying herd.

This is no cooncidence.

Bitcoin opponents should think twice if they aren't on wrong side of history ;-)

essentially an ideological project, based on hard-money economics and libertarianism,

as a opposite of ideological keynesian project of elastic money and market twisted and controlled by socialistic ideas

basically freedom vs. enslavemet

richardyot

@dendy said:
as a opposite of ideological keynesian project of elastic money and market twisted and controlled by socialistic ideas

Economics is always ideological, there is no escaping that. Economic policies will always favour one group of people over another (borrowers vs lenders, workers vs capital, investors vs rentiers etc), so economics far from being a hard science is always based on ideology and political beliefs.

That's why economics is always at the heart of political ideologies, because economic policies have a huge impact on political outcomes.

And that's also the reason why Bitcoin is popular with libertarians and Austrians: it embodies their monetary and economic beliefs.

dendy

And that's also the reason why Bitcoin is popular with libertarians and Austrians: it embodies their monetary and economic beliefs.

lol most bitcoiners i know didn't had idea about austrian economics (or economics at all) when they started with bitcoin.. including me.. i just studied code and as coder saw inherit beauty in in, still admire how beautifull and timeless it's desin and code is. From beginning i loved idea of monetary network which is not possible to be controlled by goverment or any individual or organisation. His solution of Byzantian generals problem is just amazing.

Started to learn about economy just later (and realized how shitty and unsustainable is keynesianism in long term) probably 2-3 years after i learned about Bitcoin..

And no, fact that random tweets of some eccentric billionare are affecting price in short term really doesn't mean he has any level of control. Price has nothing to do with control. There was lot of big egos trying to get control over Bitcoin in recent 12 years - all of them failed and faded. Bitcoin is still here, just every 10 minutes generates new block and doesn't give a shit about people's philosophic arguements.

Gavinski

@dendy why do you think the price is going to stay low for a long period after it comes down, rather than having a very short fall followed by a long rise?

dendy

@Gavinski said:
@dendy why do you think the price is going to stay low for a long period after it comes down, rather than having a very short fall followed by a long rise?

it's all just guesses, but i think we may see short wick down to 25k followed by fast return above 32k.. for now it looks like we're going into 2-3 months of ranging and accumulation between 40-30 .. Actually to be honest i HOPE that will be the case, i don't want to see too fast return above 42k ... acumulating and ranging for some time whre we are now would be most healthy scenario

when i get my paycheck, going to set limit buy orders on 28.5k and 24.5k, just in case :-))) not a financial advice!!!

but you know.. it's all just guesses, nobody knows shit :-) i'm really interested just in long term trend (years). There my super-bullish view is untouched. On oher side STILL following my golden rule to put there just money i can affort to loose.

Also in lomg term very good for Bitcoin is enormous level of wasting of money which is planned by Biden's administrative :-)))

Carnbot

You can still be interested in crypto and blockchain without being libertarian as I think it's useful as a means of decentralising control of some information which can be a healthy thing and can possibly inject some vibrancy in a culture. But only as an addition.

Libertarians, in my view generally aren't creative people (or scientific), so they have very little ability to imagine what their ideal society would actually be like in reality (hideous). So they cherry pick the best of what they can see without seeing the consequences.

Strong culture and science comes out of a societies with a healthy mix of public and private investment and countries with high government spending do best here. The very best culture and science, in my view, comes from places with heavy public spending.

But I see blockchain as a useful tool for independent artists when governments fail to invest properly and the private sector has too much control.

dendy

Why then literally all currently available COVID vaccines were developed by private companies and not by goverments ? Actually most smart people are always working for private sector not for goverment simply because private sector is capable of pay them better.

Also government does not "invest" really. It essentialy just redistributes money from hands of people who are more productive to hands of people who are less productive, loosing (consuming) significant part of those money for managing this transfer.

Also goverments tens to spend lot more money to build army than for science and education.

colonel_mustard

@AudioGus said:
Has any system been able to run long enough to even be declared any sort of real winner? Asking for a friend who never went to school.

Monarchy's been running the longest, obviously.

Unless you count tribal elders (and who does these days!).

It's still going in a few places. The Dragon King of the Kingdom of Bhutan is hugely popular.

I wouldn't choose a monarch myself, mind you, even if it meant that my enemies were crushed. I'd rather have a trustworthy advocate/manager up there than a benevolent dictator/overlord.

Recently, I've started to worry that AI will usurp human governance.

"Once it’s demonstrably true that you can have an AI that has far better business judgment, say, what will that do to human leadership?"
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/may/16/daniel-kahneman-clearly-ai-is-going-to-win-how-people-are-going-to-adjust-is-a-fascinating-problem-thinking-fast-and-slow

Carnbot

But where were these scientists trained? and where does their knowledge come from? a dynamic combination of public investment and private investment.

Since the pandemic there have been over 5 X the amount of applications from artists to get public funding support from the arts council in UK. Without public investment culture will suffer and so will science. We are only getting through the pandemic and building a potential future with public support.

Yes governments fail to do their jobs all the time (especially ours now). But I think a strong society can dynamically shift their investment where it's needed the most.

@dendy said:
Why then literally all currently available COVID vaccines were developed by private companies and not by goverments ? Actually most smart people are always working for private sector not for goverment simply because private sector is capable of pay them better.

Also government does not "invest" really. It essentialy just redistributes money from hands of people who are more productive to hands of people who are less productive, loosing (consuming) significant part of those money for managing this transfer.

Also goverments tens to spend lot more money to build army than for science and education.

dendy

But where were these scientists trained?

No idea how it is in other countries, in Slovakia public education system is complete shit. Basically designed to produce average people with average knowledge, based on memorising shitload of useless information, effectivelly killing creativity, individualism and uniqueness in kids from first class. Building grey mass, herd, designed to obey.

People mexcellent, unique, in some area are usually excellent not thanks to publick education system but despite they went throug it 😂

Also all science depends strongly on private sector donations and public healtcare is shit quality (many personal experiences), if you want to get good healtcare you need to pay for it in private sector.

Maybe i other countries public services do have better quality, don't know.

ervin

@Carnbot said:
But where were these scientists trained? and where does their knowledge come from? a dynamic combination of public investment and private investment.

Well, let's take the case of the covid vaccines which multiple commenters brought up as brilliant examples of corporations over government:

• The development of the AZ vaccine was made possible by gigantic payments and commitments made in advance by the EU and the UK government.
• The genius Turkish German scientist couple behind Biontech obtained their education in the famously laissez-faire German system 😉, where Social Democrats have been in government for 19 of the last 23 years.

Weird how real life is not black and white.

dendy

Osho nailed it

https://twitter.com/drbitcoinmd/status/1398092086654668808

richardyot

And the alternative to democracy is?

Carnbot

@ervin said:

@Carnbot said:
But where were these scientists trained? and where does their knowledge come from? a dynamic combination of public investment and private investment.

Well, let's take the case of the covid vaccines which multiple commenters brought up as brilliant examples of corporations over government:

• The development of the AZ vaccine was made possible by gigantic payments and commitments made in advance by the EU and the UK government.
• The genius Turkish German scientist couple behind Biontech obtained their education in the famously laissez-faire German system 😉, where Social Democrats have been in government for 19 of the last 23 years.

Weird how real life is not black and white.

Exactly, scientific communities are better where there is significant public investment.
And it's not exactly rocket science to see why

u0421793

Although, rocket science was stimulated by government investment - a] to win some war or other, then b] to get to space first, and when the incorrect people got to space first, then c] okay, we meant the moon

dendy

@richardyot said:
And the alternative to democracy is?

where i said democracy is wrong ? I'm shitting on socialism (or so called social democracy oxymoron), goverment represented by politic parties and politicians.. Thanks technology it is
more and more possible to make those parasites obsolete. liberal democracy is good, but direct democracy not representive one. Importantly, when democracy will be deeply interconnected with maximum possible level of decentralization - that would be great.

It is crucial to remove centralization of power and especially remove centralized nature of money and control over them by selected elite (politicians, bankers)

dendy

@u0421793 said:
Although, rocket science was stimulated by government investment - a] to win some war or other, then b] to get to space first, and when the incorrect people got to space first, then c] okay, we meant the moon

And it died slowly when there was clear this is not the way how to win over "enemy". Luckily today main driver of space exploration is private sector, especially some billionaire who wants to make us interplanerary species (even through he is sometimes out of control on social nerworks lol)

dendy

Back to topic. This is interestin, currently far away most selling pressure comes from Bitfinex. Whuch is kinda weird becuaee i don't think it is used too much by whales or institutions (big players are usimg mostly Coinbase, biggest retail exchanges are Binance and FTX)

https://twitter.com/byzgeneral/status/1399004832506257408

But we know who has same owner than Bitfinex. Tether. I bet they are selling BTC reserves.

Of course this is just my absolute conspirstion - speculation :-)

richardyot

@dendy said:

@richardyot said:
And the alternative to democracy is?

where i said democracy is wrong ? I'm shitting on socialism (or so called social democracy oxymoron), goverment represented by politic parties and politicians.. Thanks technology it is

I dunno man, the clip you showed is saying democracy is government "for the retarded by the retarded", I don't see any reference to socialism or social democracy in that video, but maybe you're just trolling? 🤷‍♂️