Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.

What is Loopy Pro?Loopy Pro is a powerful, flexible, and intuitive live looper, sampler, clip launcher and DAW for iPhone and iPad. At its core, it allows you to record and layer sounds in real-time to create complex musical arrangements. But it doesn’t stop there—Loopy Pro offers advanced tools to customize your workflow, build dynamic performance setups, and create a seamless connection between instruments, effects, and external gear.

Use it for live looping, sequencing, arranging, mixing, and much more. Whether you're a live performer, a producer, or just experimenting with sound, Loopy Pro helps you take control of your creative process.

Download on the App Store

Loopy Pro is your all-in-one musical toolkit. Try it for free today.

OK I’m and idiot. Why custom scales?

2

Comments

  • @richardyot said:

    @u0421793 said:

    @OscarSouth said:
    @u0421793 I also am assuming you're playing devils advocate, so I'm playing the devils advocate's devilish advocate here

    Oh no, that implies dualism, and I don’t know which side of that fence I’m on

    I do love your posts - they're often hilarious. I keep meaning to say this every time you drop one of these gems, so I've finally said it.

    👍

  • As far as I’m concerned there’s only three notes:

    The same as the one you just played, higher pitch than the one you just played, or lower pitch than the one you just played.

    And that, is music theory.

  • edited May 2021

    @u0421793 said:
    As far as I’m concerned there’s only three notes:

    The same as the one you just played, higher pitch than the one you just played, or lower pitch than the one you just played.

    And that, is music theory.

    This is actually pretty deep!

    I’ll take your three and raise you 5 notes though — repeat, step up, leap up, step down, leap down.

  • I keep seeing in various conversations that some people think you need scale modes to make music if you don't know music theory. Many great musicians have had little to no knowledge of theory other than knowing what sounds good to them. You might be shocked by how many excellent world-famous, revered musicians know nothing about music theory...not even the names of the chords they are playing or what key they are playing.

    All musicians that create music you would want to listen to, however, know what sounds good to them and will take time to find the notes that sound right to them...often those notes don't fit obviously into a theoretical framework (although after the fact one can usually figure out why they sound good).

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context. There is nothing wrong with using scale features of apps: but your music will get so much better if you spend time finding notes without relying on scale features...the notes that you find that aren't in the scale are often going to be the ones that make the difference between your song being generic and being interesting.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context.

    I actually see this as a strong case for a more fluid way of interacting with customisable 'scale' features. Perhaps a good way of looking at it is like rhythm quantisation.

    @OscarSouth said:

    @u0421793 said:
    As far as I’m concerned there’s only three notes:

    The same as the one you just played, higher pitch than the one you just played, or lower pitch than the one you just played.

    And that, is music theory.

    This is actually pretty deep!

    I’ll take your three and raise you 5 notes though — repeat, step up, leap up, step down, leap down.

    And it may get deeper: how big is a step and when does it start becoming a leap? My brain is too small for this profoundness. Need predefined scales to cope...

  • There are two kinds of music:
    1. Music I like
    2. Music I do NOT like

    Sometimes on further reflection done music will jump from 1 to 2 or 2 to 1.

    But generally most decisions are final and closely held. I tolerate a lot of #2 to avoid arguing over art.

    Scales are a bit of a trap. Running up and down makes people feel good but the magic tends to involve leaps, IMHO. More #1 in excellent leaps using new rhythmic ideas and more #2 in super fast scale displays.

  • @Cyndilov said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context.

    I actually see this as a strong case for a more fluid way of interacting with customisable 'scale' features.

    Both great points. Develop that ear. It’s the key aspect of musical growth.

  • @Cyndilov said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context.

    I actually see this as a strong case for a more fluid way of interacting with customisable 'scale' features. Perhaps a good way of looking at it is like rhythm quantisation.

    In my opinion, even better is spending some time with no quantization...even with fluid customizable custom scales you are relying on something other than your ears. It is similar to rhythmic quantization: too many people are reliant on it and so don't develop a "feel" for rhythm. That isnt to say they aren't sometimes handy and useful...but often they get in the way of people learning to find the notes that sound good to them in a unique way.

  • edited May 2021

    I play my sax in 12 keys and various modes, so it’s not about theory. Custom scales help me to play scales but mostly chords on iPhone/iPad touchscreen keyboards, they’re even quite playable and enjoyable to play that way. This also help to slide from note to note with proper melody.

  • @Cyndilov said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context.

    I actually see this as a strong case for a more fluid way of interacting with customisable 'scale' features. Perhaps a good way of looking at it is like rhythm quantisation.

    That’s what it is for me. I make scales by figuring out what notes I want to play, which is great for individuality, terrible for modulation. They occasionally fit into traditional scales, but usually don’t. When revisiting a composition, it’s a pain trying to remember what notes are in my custom scale, and I don’t see a big musical benefit to it. Things speed up and stay more creative when I can make a custom scale to save with the song. 🤷🏻‍♂️

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Cyndilov said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context.

    I actually see this as a strong case for a more fluid way of interacting with customisable 'scale' features. Perhaps a good way of looking at it is like rhythm quantisation.

    In my opinion, even better is spending some time with no quantization...even with fluid customizable custom scales you are relying on something other than your ears. It is similar to rhythmic quantization: too many people are reliant on it and so don't develop a "feel" for rhythm. That isnt to say they aren't sometimes handy and useful...but often they get in the way of people learning to find the notes that sound good to them in a unique way.

    This is actually what I'm getting at. For the record I see the 'grid' on the piano roll limiting, but productive in a particular way, just like musical notations are productive. I'm happy to see for example that Patterning 'gets it' in terms of some of the many many conceptualisations of rhythms.

    On the other hand though, I would say that the ears aren't everything (disclaimer: I'm a big advocate of ear training and taste development myself). Much of developing one's musical language (either seeking a unique artistic style or fitting inside of a musical idiom) is chunking together pieces. Shapes on a guitar fretboard for example. Ears guide the decision while the chunks holds the music in comprehensible form (here in music software would be the built-in 'theory' but for the non-theory brilliant artist it would be all their favourite chords, licks and embellishments), is how I understand it.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Cyndilov said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context.

    I actually see this as a strong case for a more fluid way of interacting with customisable 'scale' features. Perhaps a good way of looking at it is like rhythm quantisation.

    In my opinion, even better is spending some time with no quantization...even with fluid customizable custom scales you are relying on something other than your ears. It is similar to rhythmic quantization: too many people are reliant on it and so don't develop a "feel" for rhythm. That isnt to say they aren't sometimes handy and useful...but often they get in the way of people learning to find the notes that sound good to them in a unique way.

    I agree, as your playing will improve if you rely on picking the correct notes in a scale by ear and learning how to play in time by using your ears.

    While various tools are useful for people with few initial musical skills, they can became a crutch. Take up thy instrument and walk!

  • @Cyndilov said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Cyndilov said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    This is a long way of saying: even if you don't know music theory, spend some time figuring out what notes sound good to you in a context.

    I actually see this as a strong case for a more fluid way of interacting with customisable 'scale' features. Perhaps a good way of looking at it is like rhythm quantisation.

    In my opinion, even better is spending some time with no quantization...even with fluid customizable custom scales you are relying on something other than your ears. It is similar to rhythmic quantization: too many people are reliant on it and so don't develop a "feel" for rhythm. That isnt to say they aren't sometimes handy and useful...but often they get in the way of people learning to find the notes that sound good to them in a unique way.

    This is actually what I'm getting at. For the record I see the 'grid' on the piano roll limiting, but productive in a particular way, just like musical notations are productive. I'm happy to see for example that Patterning 'gets it' in terms of some of the many many conceptualisations of rhythms.

    On the other hand though, I would say that the ears aren't everything (disclaimer: I'm a big advocate of ear training and taste development myself). Much of developing one's musical language (either seeking a unique artistic style or fitting inside of a musical idiom) is chunking together pieces. Shapes on a guitar fretboard for example. Ears guide the decision while the chunks holds the music in comprehensible form (here in music software would be the built-in 'theory' but for the non-theory brilliant artist it would be all their favourite chords, licks and embellishments), is how I understand it.

    Keep in mind -- my point is not "don't ever use scale features" -- they can be liberating or entertaining or fun -- my point is that they should be an adjunct to one's process not a substitute for learning to find the notes that sound right to you.

    I am going to disagree about how shapes on guitar, for instance, fit in. Learning shapes AND the sounds that correspond to them is a valuable learning tool -- but ultimately is only successful in helping one be an expressive musician if the shapes are a waypoint learning the fretboard and where the various sounds are. People that learn to play shapes but don't progress to knowing what those shapes will sound like are going to be very limited. If one pays attention to the sounds created by the shapes then before long, the shapes were just a pathway to discovering the fingerboard -- and your mind (usually without your being aware) will be able to translate a sound to a shape -- and you won't be restricted to the shapes you learned. Somehow, you will just know where to find the notes.

    In my opinion, people that rely entirely on scales features without spending time a fair amount of time plunking notes out unrestricted by scale trying to find ones that sound right to them -- are in the long run reducing likelihood that they'll consistently come up with non-generic sounding music.

    Patterning is an awesome app AND one will create much more interesting and varied and expressive music in the long run if one also can play unquantized rhythms on one's own -- even one uses drum machines a lot.

    I think too many musicians think you need theory when you you need above all else is ears. Lots of great songwriters (and even soloists) have no knowledge of theory. Without exception, they can take a musical fragment and find notes that sound good to them. A lot of folks get stuck using scale tools without spending time working on the facility to find those notes (which can be just singing or whistling them or whatever),

    That doesn't mean being able to spontaneously play anything you can hear -- it just means being able to play or sing some notes that sound right to you and (even if it takes trial and error) find the note you hear in your head. This is even true if one ultimately ends up making largely algorithmic music.

    That's my take anyway.

  • As an individualist, it doesn't matter what (custom)scale you use, you can even use different scales in time to alter the emotion of a track, as long as it sounds good for your and others ear.
    As soon as you play in a group, you have to communicate in the same musical language, and that's scales. If you agreed to the same scale, the sound of all members are coherent, even with improvisation (jazz).
    When different scales are used in a group, it has to written down on sheet music or by practising together, as long as each other know when a different scale comes along.

  • @OscarSouth said:

    @u0421793 said:
    As far as I’m concerned there’s only three notes:

    The same as the one you just played, higher pitch than the one you just played, or lower pitch than the one you just played.

    And that, is music theory.

    This is actually pretty deep!

    I’ll take your three and raise you 5 notes though — repeat, step up, leap up, step down, leap down.

    And it may get deeper: how big is a step and when does it start becoming a leap? My brain is too small for this profoundness. Need predefined scales to cope...

    Found this thread while doing some market research for microtonal scale apps for an upcoming project (Shoom and Entonal look good).

    Anyway, to answer your question I’d say that it’s a step if it feels smooth when you’re singing it and a leap if it feels like a vocal jump. Entirely based on that and there’s a degree of subjectivity involved.

  • I’m either too ignorant or too lazy to know what scale I’m on when improvising. And the “lazy” part is due to ignorance, someone with proper musical training will know the scale right away whereas I have to switch to “math mode” to find out, and that kills the vibe.
    So custom scales are a great option. You just try out the notes and pick the ones you like. Which is exactly what @OscarSouth eloquently stated. You’ll probably end up at a “known” scale, but it’s yours… some ignorant romanticism in that. Versus being aware that you’re playing in mixolidian mode, ( which as we all know is the fifth of the Ionian mode 🤯), that’s just scary.

  • Custom scales are also a nice to have feature when you want, well, custom scales?

    or note intervals?

    The list of included scales varies a lot from app to app, so what do you do if you want a sequence in Eb Hirajoshi? Or constraint the choices to 6, 5, 4 or 3 notes?

    Specially with sequencing and generative styles, you don't always want the 7 notes in a common scale, so it is good to be able to choose.

  • Custom scales are way to keep the chaos at bay. Discipline until purposefully broken for special effect. It helps keep me on track and forces me to think of creative solutions using a limited amount of notes, that may or may not all play well together. It’s also an excellent way of using traditional scales and slightly altering them, which can be fun. I know a bit of music theory, but I like scales as an organizational tool, so I don’t have to think too much about it. Plus, I prefer the piano roll over midi input in many cases, and custom scales are a great addition to other note manipulation tools.

  • As Identor mentioned, theory is about clear communication, it's not a list of rules for creating music. When I play with other musicians I have always needed to be able to immediately understand and communicate about the keys, scales, and chord progressions being used.

    But I think different genres require different amounts of understanding of theory. If you don't play in a group with other musicians or improvise with other musicians, it may not be a skill that is needed.

    Music theory is VERY easy, the important bits can be learned in under an hour. But not from YouTube where the presenters make it seem impossibly difficult so you will have to watch many of their videos, or buy a course, to try to understand. (Avoid any YouTube video that starts with the circle of fifths as, imo, that is no place to begin learning theory.)

    On the other hand, my friend is taking music classes in college and the discouraging, tricky maze of ideas they are forcing her to learn is just a sad justification for the professor's salary. They have turned a simple, beautiful language into a complex web of nonsense terms and unusable concepts. If you haven't checked out a modern college music theory course lately, you'll be surprised and very disheartened.

  • wimwim
    edited February 10

    I'm extremely proud to say that many of the notes in my songs are the very same notes used by the greatest composers of all time. I've found that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Mahler ... and countless other great composers even to this day have seen fit to use notes I use every day. This is a profound accomplishment that I've no doubt holds just about everyone here in awe.

    Please don't hate me because I'm among the greats. You all may be too some day.

  • hahaha

    Thinking about this a bit more-
    How do you use embedded scales to solo over chord changes? A common example like using a Gmajor then a Gminor chord as a "turnaround" at the end of a phrase. A major scale won't do in that event, chromatic notes are needed.

    Mainly I think people should express themselves however they see fit, and if and when they want to learn more, the information is available.

  • @wim said:
    I'm extremely proud to say that many of the notes in my songs are the very same notes used by the greatest composers of all time. I've found that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Mahler ... and countless other great composers even to this day have seen fit to use notes I use every day. This is a profound accomplishment that I've no doubt holds just about everyone here in awe.

    Please don't hate me because I'm among the greats. You all may be too some day.

    And at least you don’t suffer from the ‘too many notes’ problem like Mozart.

  • @wim said:
    I'm extremely proud to say that many of the notes in my songs are the very same notes used by the greatest composers of all time. I've found that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Mahler ... and countless other great composers even to this day have seen fit to use notes I use every day. This is a profound accomplishment that I've no doubt holds just about everyone here in awe.

    Please don't hate me because I'm among the greats. You all may be too some day.

    😂🤣

  • I find it difficult to stick to a scale. Whether my own compositions or just tunes I like, I feel like there’s almost always a little modal interchange…just because it is so common in minor if for no other reason. And secondary dominants are also pretty common.

    Even with a surf inspired tune where I was intentionally using the “double harmonic” scale, the C section ended up in Phrygian dominant.

    (Sorry for the jargon to anyone not familiar with it. But that’s the advantage of music theory. It makes it orders of magnitude simpler to talk about music topics than without it.)

    Not that I would begrudge anyone else having access to a “scale mode” if they find it useful.

    That said, at some point I want to try writing something using a non-twelve equal temperament.

  • @abf said:
    hahaha

    Thinking about this a bit more-
    How do you use embedded scales to solo over chord changes? A common example like using a Gmajor then a Gminor chord as a "turnaround" at the end of a phrase. A major scale won't do in that event, chromatic notes are needed.

    Mainly I think people should express themselves however they see fit, and if and when they want to learn more, the information is available.

    In modal music, you don’t need chromatic notes. But more generally, I like the effects I can create on a diatonic kb like Animoog. I especially like to dial in a three or four or five-note scale of only the best notes.

  • @abf said:
    Thinking about this a bit more-
    How do you use embedded scales to solo over chord changes? A common example like using a Gmajor then a Gminor chord as a "turnaround" at the end of a phrase. A major scale won't do in that event, chromatic notes are needed.

    That’s the downside of not having a chromatic scale available to you.

    Just using a scale that is appropriate for the underlying diatonic chords isn’t always going to make your soloing sound good - good soloing should include chord tones, and it’s always good to be familiar with arpeggios and being able to select good passing tones when they’re needed.

    Playing non-chord tones is what is going to provide tension and add color, so there really are no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ notes in a solo.

  • @michael_m said:

    @abf said:
    Thinking about this a bit more-
    How do you use embedded scales to solo over chord changes? A common example like using a Gmajor then a Gminor chord as a "turnaround" at the end of a phrase. A major scale won't do in that event, chromatic notes are needed.

    That’s the downside of not having a chromatic scale available to you.

    Just using a scale that is appropriate for the underlying diatonic chords isn’t always going to make your soloing sound good - good soloing should include chord tones, and it’s always good to be familiar with arpeggios and being able to select good passing tones when they’re needed.

    Playing non-chord tones is what is going to provide tension and add color, so there really are no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ notes in a solo.

    Well said. It took me far too long in my musical journey to realize that.

  • edited February 11

    I know the theory behind scales, modes, etc.
    Truth is for the most part, the diatonic scales (major/minor plus harmonic) are what I use 99% of the times. Sometimes I might try something new, but there really isn’t much depart from diatonic.
    A subject that interests me much more is microtuning, scala files and the like, but that’s another story.

    What I do like is restricting keyboard to specific notes. Never mind the scale I’m playing, these are the notes I want. That’s the kind of “scale” support I want from apps

  • wimwim
    edited February 11

    @pedro said:
    I know the theory behind scales, modes, etc.
    Truth is for the most part, the diatonic scales (major/minor plus harmonic) are what I use 99% of the times. Sometimes I might try something new, but there really isn’t much depart from diatonic.
    A subject that interests me much more is microtuning, scala files and the like, but that’s another story.

    What I do like is restricting keyboard to specific notes. Never mind the scale I’m playing, these are the notes I want. That’s the kind of “scale” support I want from apps

    You might like to take a look at the Simple Scaler Mozaic script. You can pick which notes you want and then save up to four sets of notes to recall as needed.

    Another one that could be helpful: https://patchstorage.com/dynamic-scale-quantize/

  • What if you don’t know the name of the scale but can identify the notes?

Sign In or Register to comment.