Off topic Q about Ableton 11 and midi

Gavinski

Is Ableton 11 capable of the kind of flexible midi handling that we are used to in an app like AUM? Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc.

If anyone knows whether this is possible and how to do this a short vid or a few screen shots would be much appreciated. 🙏

soundtemple

I’d say no not quite as flexible as AUM.

My understanding is...
A midi device can’t send midi out to multiple channels from track where it is inserted.

Midi tracks can filter incoming midi by source and by channel, but not multiple channels. It’s all or one channel.

What does work quite well is sending midi from AUM to Ableton with an IDAM connection (and Ableton Link). So, you can have your midi app in AUM which sends out on 10 channels to Ableton Live and each midi channel in Live can receive a single midi channel.

Carnbot

It's not as flexible as AUM in this way unfortunately, but there'll be ways to filter midi channels with M4L devices.

maybe this works, not sure...https://maxforlive.com/library/device/3003/live-midi-router-and-receiver

There are hacky workarounds where you send the midi outside of Ableton, through a midi routing app and then back into Ableton on a certain channel.... But it seems that direct track to track sending of midi loses channel info.

Gavinski

Thank you guys!

shinyisshiny

yah ableton is somewhat behind on midi. its a great program and is my daily grind, but it could still use some improvements.

Carnbot

Yeah this is why Ableton + audio/midi interface + iPad is such a great combination because there's not much you can't do when combined together.

Gavinski

It's pretty crazy that they haven't got round to improving this aspect by version 11 😂

GovernorSilver

Says a lot about how the Ableton customer base has actually been using Live.

Meaning, the overwhelming majority of Ableton customers are not MIDI power users like the OP

brambos

@Gavinski said:
It's pretty crazy that they haven't got round to improving this aspect by version 11 😂

It's not crazy if the majority of their customer base has different priorities, isn't it?

I mean, Live is pretty popular and I rarely hear anyone complain about their MIDI flexibility so they're doing something right

Carnbot

Yeah it's really the best at what it does, I think the use case is pretty rare but I'm sure they will get around to adding this...there's lots of things I would choose for them to do first before that. Especially as workarounds are possible

I personally can't think of a midi app I have in Ableton which needs this, the rack system is very powerful for building instruments so I guess it's not high on their request list yet.

bleep

This thread makes me love AUM even more. I had kind of assumed that surely Ableton could do all things available in iOS "toys"

gonekrazy3000

Um. I think you guys underestimate how much you can do with midi in ableton. Yes. It's not as fast as aum in midi routing but you can pretty much do anything the op is asking. I've created ridiculously complex midi processors using various vst plug-ins, Reaktor and ableton.

But basically every midi track you make can recieve a particular midi channel from a "master track" and send to a particular midi track. Filtering midi is as simple as making a midi track that has input from the master track (specific channel) and midi to the desired output channel. If you want a channel to recieve midi from multiple sources just set it to input.

Here's the manual @Gavinski

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/routing-and-i-o/

If you want me to make a dummy routing project to try and do exactly what you need I could probably do it and share the project with you.

You'd have to basically make a ton of "pipe" channels inbetween. I "group" those tracks so that I can hide the messy routing in my projects.

GovernorSilver

fwiw, I'm only recently got Live 11 myself and am learning how things work in it, including MIDI.

In the past I would have been quicker to just turn to Max for Live for any unusual MIDI needs.

michael_m

@gonekrazy3000 said:
Um. I think you guys underestimate how much you can do with midi in ableton. Yes. It's not as fast as aum in midi routing but you can pretty much do anything the op is asking. I've created ridiculously complex midi processors using various vst plug-ins, Reaktor and ableton.

But basically every midi track you make can recieve a particular midi channel from a "master track" and send to a particular midi track. Filtering midi is as simple as making a midi track that has input from the master track (specific channel) and midi to the desired output channel. If you want a channel to recieve midi from multiple sources just set it to input.

Here's the manual @Gavinski

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/routing-and-i-o/

If you want me to make a dummy routing project to try and do exactly what you need I could probably do it and share the project with you.

You'd have to basically make a ton of "pipe" channels inbetween. I "group" those tracks so that I can hide the messy routing in my projects.

That makes sense - I can imagine doing that and getting the result, but it does seem like a huge pain.

GovernorSilver

If I were the OP, I'd stick with what works for MIDI matters. In his case that would be AUM right?

Just go with a hybrid IOS-Ableton setup like so many other people here. Don't switch all your MIDI routings and other MIDI logic to Live 11 unless someone is paying you good money to do it.

Gavinski

@gonekrazy3000 said:
Um. I think you guys underestimate how much you can do with midi in ableton. Yes. It's not as fast as aum in midi routing but you can pretty much do anything the op is asking. I've created ridiculously complex midi processors using various vst plug-ins, Reaktor and ableton.

But basically every midi track you make can recieve a particular midi channel from a "master track" and send to a particular midi track. Filtering midi is as simple as making a midi track that has input from the master track (specific channel) and midi to the desired output channel. If you want a channel to recieve midi from multiple sources just set it to input.

Here's the manual @Gavinski

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/routing-and-i-o/

If you want me to make a dummy routing project to try and do exactly what you need I could probably do it and share the project with you.

You'd have to basically make a ton of "pipe" channels inbetween. I "group" those tracks so that I can hide the messy routing in my projects.

Thanks for the detailed response and your kind offer. I'll take a look at that section of the manual first, cheers

echoopera

FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.

You just need to get familiar with the workflow as with any other app. But as others have suggested the iPad with IDAM to macOS is a real joy to use as well. I love using Drambo and AUM to sequence Ableton and synths from time to time. This workflow has kept me from buying a Squarp Pyramid as well...though I still do love the idea of this particular piece of hardware

It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish and your mileage may vary

Gavinski

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.

You just need to get familiar with the workflow as with any other app. But as others have suggested the iPad with IDAM to macOS is a real joy to use as well. I love using Drambo and AUM to sequence Ableton and synths from time to time. This workflow has kept me from buying a Squarp Pyramid as well...though I still do love the idea of this particular piece of hardware

It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish and your mileage may vary

Yes, but did you get it to do what I described I was looking for in my original post?

Carnbot

Which midi app are you trying to use?

echoopera

@Gavinski said:

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.
Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc

For this sort of setup I’d just have the synths receive from the inputs you want them to receive from.

Which ‘midi’ app are you using? If you provide an example i can look into it. I own quite a few good tools on macOS.

Gavinski

@Carnbot said:
Which midi app are you trying to use?

@echoopera said:

@Gavinski said:

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.
Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc

For this sort of setup I’d just have the synths receive from the inputs you want them to receive from.

Which ‘midi’ app are you using? If you provide an example i can look into it. I own quite a few good tools on macOS.

It's unreleased so I can't say unfortunately 😂, thanks anyway

AlmostAnonymous

Midi has never been abletons forte. It didnt even have midi until ver4.
I just look at it as the near perfection of the software sampler. Thats it.
That being said...i also gave up on ableton around v5

Edit: you can always start messing around witht the dark arts available to you in logics enviroment window if you need that midi flexibility.....

gonekrazy3000

@GovernorSilver said:
Says a lot about how the Ableton customer base has actually been using Live.

Meaning, the overwhelming majority of Ableton customers are not MIDI power users like the OP

Its a bit strange to directly assume this. I am one of the people that did a ton of midi processing in Ios and find ableton pretty much as flexible if not more.

@Gavinski said:

@Carnbot said:
Which midi app are you trying to use?

@echoopera said:

@Gavinski said:

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.
Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc

For this sort of setup I’d just have the synths receive from the inputs you want them to receive from.

Which ‘midi’ app are you using? If you provide an example i can look into it. I own quite a few good tools on macOS.

It's unreleased so I can't say unfortunately 😂, thanks anyway

Could you send me a multichannel midi clip with example midi ? I could setup most of the routing for you.

echoopera

@Gavinski said:

@Carnbot said:
Which midi app are you trying to use?

@echoopera said:

@Gavinski said:

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.
Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc

For this sort of setup I’d just have the synths receive from the inputs you want them to receive from.

Which ‘midi’ app are you using? If you provide an example i can look into it. I own quite a few good tools on macOS.

It's unreleased so I can't say unfortunately 😂, thanks anyway

okie dokie. Just ask the SugarBytes team for help then

Gavinski

@gonekrazy3000 said:

@GovernorSilver said:
Says a lot about how the Ableton customer base has actually been using Live.

Meaning, the overwhelming majority of Ableton customers are not MIDI power users like the OP

Its a bit strange to directly assume this. I am one of the people that did a tin if midi processing in Ios on 5hi> @Gavinski said:

@Carnbot said:
Which midi app are you trying to use?

@echoopera said:

@Gavinski said:

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.
Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc

For this sort of setup I’d just have the synths receive from the inputs you want them to receive from.

Which ‘midi’ app are you using? If you provide an example i can look into it. I own quite a few good tools on macOS.

It's unreleased so I can't say unfortunately 😂, thanks anyway

Could you send me a multichannel midi clip with example midi ? I could setup most of the routing for you.

Maybe a few days from now, thanks for the offer

@echoopera said:

@Gavinski said:

@Carnbot said:
Which midi app are you trying to use?

@echoopera said:

@Gavinski said:

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.
Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc

For this sort of setup I’d just have the synths receive from the inputs you want them to receive from.

Which ‘midi’ app are you using? If you provide an example i can look into it. I own quite a few good tools on macOS.

It's unreleased so I can't say unfortunately 😂, thanks anyway

okie dokie. Just ask the SugarBytes team for help then

👻

aleyas

@gonekrazy3000 said:
Um. I think you guys underestimate how much you can do with midi in ableton. Yes. It's not as fast as aum in midi routing but you can pretty much do anything the op is asking. I've created ridiculously complex midi processors using various vst plug-ins, Reaktor and ableton.

But basically every midi track you make can recieve a particular midi channel from a "master track" and send to a particular midi track. Filtering midi is as simple as making a midi track that has input from the master track (specific channel) and midi to the desired output channel. If you want a channel to recieve midi from multiple sources just set it to input.

Here's the manual @Gavinski

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/routing-and-i-o/

If you want me to make a dummy routing project to try and do exactly what you need I could probably do it and share the project with you.

You'd have to basically make a ton of "pipe" channels inbetween. I "group" those tracks so that I can hide the messy routing in my projects.

I struggle with this in Ableton too. Basically, you have a plugin that can generate midi on several channels.. but then I have trouble routing those channels to individual tracks in Ableton. I checked the manual you linked to, but I still can't see how to have a plugin listen to a specific midi channel from the source.
edit: the channels all get merged at the receiving track

Carnbot

@Gavinski said:

@Carnbot said:
Which midi app are you trying to use?

@echoopera said:

@Gavinski said:

@echoopera said:
FWIW, I find the Midi Routing in Ableton pretty straight forward and infinitely configurable. I have yet to struggle to set up a scene to produce what I wanted to do.
Let's say I have a midi app in Ableton that is sending out midi on ten different channels. I then want to send that to 3 synths, having, let's say, synth 1 receive only a few of these channels, synth 2 receive another few etc etc

For this sort of setup I’d just have the synths receive from the inputs you want them to receive from.

Which ‘midi’ app are you using? If you provide an example i can look into it. I own quite a few good tools on macOS.

It's unreleased so I can't say unfortunately 😂, thanks anyway

Does the vst have any midi output settings in the plugin itself...eg so you can select hardware outputs etc?

gonekrazy3000

@aleyas said:

@gonekrazy3000 said:
Um. I think you guys underestimate how much you can do with midi in ableton. Yes. It's not as fast as aum in midi routing but you can pretty much do anything the op is asking. I've created ridiculously complex midi processors using various vst plug-ins, Reaktor and ableton.

But basically every midi track you make can recieve a particular midi channel from a "master track" and send to a particular midi track. Filtering midi is as simple as making a midi track that has input from the master track (specific channel) and midi to the desired output channel. If you want a channel to recieve midi from multiple sources just set it to input.

Here's the manual @Gavinski

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/routing-and-i-o/

If you want me to make a dummy routing project to try and do exactly what you need I could probably do it and share the project with you.

You'd have to basically make a ton of "pipe" channels inbetween. I "group" those tracks so that I can hide the messy routing in my projects.

I struggle with this in Ableton too. Basically, you have a plugin that can generate midi on several channels.. but then I have trouble routing those channels to individual tracks in Ableton. I checked the manual you linked to, but I still can't see how to have a plugin listen to a specific midi channel from the source.
edit: the channels all get merged at the receiving track

You basically use the "pipe" tracks you made send the channels you want to the receiver where it does indeed get merged. Say for example you want a chord track to only listen to tracks 2 and 5 from the original plug-in. You make a pipe channel that listens only to channel 2 then sends it to the chord track. You make another one that listens to 5 and sends it to the chord track. On the chord track you set it to "in" and don't have to select a specific channel channel listen to. The chord track will record all the midi only from channel 2 and 5. Yes it's merged. But only those specific channels.

Can you guys give me an example of what plugin you're using that generates multiple midi channels this way ? I need an example so I can show you guys the routing. I have personally split midi coming from my iPad over a single port in 16 midi channels this way so I know it can be done in Ableton. I just don't have a vst plugin that does it on my pc alone.

EDIT

Here's the article how to set the "pipe" tracks. https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209070189-Accessing-the-MIDI-output-of-a-VST-plug-in

But we do indeed seem to have have problem. Apparently with Vst plug-ins ableton merges the midi output into 1 channel. Which is actually awful. I mostly used multi channel midi from external gear like my beatstep pro or my iPad so never noticed this flaw. I guess to bypass this limitation you guys will have to dabble with virtual midi ports like loopbe or using loopback midi ports on your audio interface.

Will do some testing with Reaktor when I get free time later to see if I can figure out a workaround.

Carnbot

@gonekrazy3000 But this is exactly the problem as described earlier.
It's easy to do this from external sources like ipad and hardware, but not with VST plugins, which Ableton treats as one channel source and you can't split the channels.
Which is why you need to route the midi out and back in again with various workarounds.

Gavinski

@Carnbot said:
@gonekrazy3000 But this is exactly the problem as described earlier.
It's easy to do this from external sources like ipad and hardware, but not with VST plugins, which Ableton treats as one channel source and you can't split the channels.
Which is why you need to route the midi out and back in again with various workarounds.

Yeah, it's OK, if it is such a hassle it's something I'm going to skip.

Carnbot

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209070189-Accessing-the-MIDI-output-of-a-VST-plug-in

"Note: Live merges all MIDI channels to one channel when being routed internally from track to track. It is therefore not possible to send MIDI to separate tracks via separate MIDI channels."

Oh, didn't see that post earlier, same link