Off topic Q about Ableton 11 and midi

aleyas

@gonekrazy3000 said:
EDIT

Here's the article how to set the "pipe" tracks. https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209070189-Accessing-the-MIDI-output-of-a-VST-plug-in

But we do indeed seem to have have problem. Apparently with Vst plug-ins ableton merges the midi output into 1 channel. Which is actually awful. I mostly used multi channel midi from external gear like my beatstep pro or my iPad so never noticed this flaw. I guess to bypass this limitation you guys will have to dabble with virtual midi ports like loopbe or using loopback midi ports on your audio interface.

Will do some testing with Reaktor when I get free time later to see if I can figure out a workaround.

Yes, this is precisely the problem. All midi data sent out from a VST plugin will become merged at the pipe track / destination plugin.

So if I have a sequencer plugin making a kick sequence on MIDI Channel 1, snare sequence on MIDI channel 2, hihat sequence on MIDI channel 3, and melodic sequence on MIDI channel 4. When I create a kick device in Ableton, have it listen to my sequencer plugin, it will receive all channels, 1-4. All devices receive all channels from the sequencer plugin.

I've since switched to Bitwig, where midi channel filtering is built in. I don't have Ableton 11, just 10. I heard that MPE was included in the latest version, so was also wondering if this particular limitation was 'fixed'.

aleyas

@Carnbot said:
https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209070189-Accessing-the-MIDI-output-of-a-VST-plug-in

"Note: Live merges all MIDI channels to one channel when being routed internally from track to track. It is therefore not possible to send MIDI to separate tracks via separate MIDI channels."

Oh, didn't see that post earlier, same link

Case closed

Carnbot

Also Ableton midi learn doesn't have midi channels either, which is a real pain.
They do have a problem with channels.
But Daws always have many issues and each have their own.

gonekrazy3000

@aleyas said:

@gonekrazy3000 said:
EDIT

Here's the article how to set the "pipe" tracks. https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209070189-Accessing-the-MIDI-output-of-a-VST-plug-in

But we do indeed seem to have have problem. Apparently with Vst plug-ins ableton merges the midi output into 1 channel. Which is actually awful. I mostly used multi channel midi from external gear like my beatstep pro or my iPad so never noticed this flaw. I guess to bypass this limitation you guys will have to dabble with virtual midi ports like loopbe or using loopback midi ports on your audio interface.

Will do some testing with Reaktor when I get free time later to see if I can figure out a workaround.

Yes, this is precisely the problem. All midi data sent out from a VST plugin will become merged at the pipe track / destination plugin.

So if I have a sequencer plugin making a kick sequence on MIDI Channel 1, snare sequence on MIDI channel 2, hihat sequence on MIDI channel 3, and melodic sequence on MIDI channel 4. When I create a kick device in Ableton, have it listen to my sequencer plugin, it will receive all channels, 1-4. All devices receive all channels from the sequencer plugin.

I've since switched to Bitwig, where midi channel filtering is built in. I don't have Ableton 11, just 10. I heard that MPE was included in the latest version, so was also wondering if this particular limitation was 'fixed'.

It does indeed have mpe which sends each note on a seperate midi channel. So curious to see if I can make a workaround using mpe mode and external instrument plug-ins. I love bigwig ,don't get me wrong. But I just prefer ableton for some of what it does. I started missing a lot of my max4live add-ons. In an ideal world if bigwig could run max4live plug-ins I'd be super happy.

auxmux

The issue of merged midi channels is not solved in Ableton 11 from VSTs. My use case is using Maschine to sequence VSTs outside or hardware. In Ableton, this just isn't possible, which is super annoying. Can't believe this is still not implemented after all these years.

It works as noted in Bitwig and also VCV Rack. Both have super flexible midi routing from VSTs. I much prefer using VCV these days when I'm using desktop.

aleyas

@auxmux said:
The issue of merged midi channels is not solved in Ableton 11 from VSTs. My use case is using Maschine to sequence VSTs outside or hardware. In Ableton, this just isn't possible, which is super annoying. Can't believe this is still not implemented after all these years.

It works as noted in Bitwig and also VCV Rack. Both have super flexible midi routing from VSTs. I much prefer using VCV these days when I'm using desktop.

I completely forgot about VCV hosting. That's a paid module upgrade right?

I just installed 1.1.6 the other day after giving VCV a break for about a year. My MacBook still gets super loud before I even add a single module. Is my laptop gonna catch fire using VCV Rack? In all seriousness though, the percieved cpu weight of VCV is what put me off it for all this time. How do you feel it performs on mid-specced computers? Also when running a few plugins?

auxmux

@aleyas Yeah, it's a paid upgrade ($30 I believe) to the Host add-on, which was updated about two months ago with additional modules for midi out. I don't use it on MBPro either. it's a 2014 model and goes crazy too.

For VCV, I ended using my old desktop Windows PC with a dedicated GPU. The PC is even older, but the GPU makes the difference. I've read about better performance with more recent Macs, but a GPU is a big factor. I can get on the PC with a reasonable setup of 2-3 oscillators, and 4-5 fx plugins, and running Maschine with midi and audio out.

GovernorSilver

@gonekrazy3000 said:

@GovernorSilver said:
Says a lot about how the Ableton customer base has actually been using Live.

Meaning, the overwhelming majority of Ableton customers are not MIDI power users like the OP

Its a bit strange to directly assume this. I am one of the people that did a ton of midi processing in Ios and find ableton pretty much as flexible if not more.

I did say "overwhelming majority of Ableton customers"

Seems like you're assuming all other Ableton users are using MIDI processing to the same degree of sophistication as yourself. I have my doubts.

aleyas

@auxmux said:
@aleyas Yeah, it's a paid upgrade ($30 I believe) to the Host add-on, which was updated about two months ago with additional modules for midi out. I don't use it on MBPro either. it's a 2014 model and goes crazy too.

For VCV, I ended using my old desktop Windows PC with a dedicated GPU. The PC is even older, but the GPU is what makes the difference. I've read about better performance with more recent Macs, but a GPU makes the biggest difference. I can by on the PC with a reasonable setup of 2-3 oscillators, and 4-5 fx plugins, and running Maschine with midi and audio out.

Ugh, yeah, mines a 2014 MBP, i7. It's really tempting to dive in, but I doubt I'll be able to get much milage out of it until I upgrade. I'll need to do some research to see how the new M1s handle VCV.
Thanks for the info!

echoopera

I dunno. It sounds like the setups are overly complicated and confusing but everyone’s workflow is different.

Which VSTs are you all using which allow you to send notes over n# midi channels? For drums vsts like Playbeat and DrumComputer just send Notes over a single midi channel so the example of Kick on Channel 1, Snare on Channel 2 is foreign to me. Which VST does this in a DAW?

Cheers.

auxmux

@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

echoopera

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

auxmux

@echoopera said:

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

No worries. I think the use case varies for different people. For me, the idea is to use one sequencing source, Maschine etc. to send multiple channels to multiple instruments hosted on different tracks in Ableton. But since Ableton (shamefully) merges all midi channels into one channel (Channel 1), there's no way to do this.

https://hy-plugins.com/ - HY has some cool sequencer plugins I've demo-ed in the past. Might get one for multitrack sequencing to try in VCV or Bitwig. Also, saw the developer recently released a new multi-osc polysynth, which looks great. Big fan of HY's interface design.

aleyas

@echoopera said:

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

Yeah. Consider a typical AUM workflow: Load up Fugue Machine as a midi generator. The 4 playheads of Fugue Machine each send on different channels. Then you direct those playheads/channels to 4 different audio units - a piano, a synth, some strings, and a drum machine. You expect each instrument to be sequenced from a different playhead / midi channel.

In the case of Ableton, the data from the 4 playheads would all be merged together. So the 4 audio units would all receive the same mix of midi data (from all 4 playheads). There's no easy way to filter data by midi channel once it has left the Midi Generator VST in Ableton.

Cubase, Bitwig, and VCV Rack have built in midi filters though. So this issue has been a plague on midi routing in Ableton for a while. The reason it may not get brought up much in these parts may be due to survivorship bias - the people that require this ability in their workflow likely no longer use Ableton.

Basically, something like this is what's currently missing from Ableton in regards to midi routing:

Carnbot

Yeah, quite soon we'll see VCV rack Vst which will need this ideally and so would Sunvox Vst.
Drambo would also need this when used on desktop as a plugin.
Perhaps the OP is referring to sugarbytes new upcoming modular plugin daw which has multiple sequencers outputs etc.

It's not a dealbreaker for me currently because I prefer sequencing hardware synths or ipad synths and then recording the audio into Ableton, and expect most of the user base has hardware to audio workflow as well which is why they haven't added it yet.

I do hope they fix this though.

Carnbot

A more preferable thing would be to support multiple midi out ports so then midi channels aren't necessary.
But even on iOS a lot of developers don't seem to want to support this feature yet.

echoopera

@aleyas said:

@echoopera said:

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

Yeah. Consider a typical AUM workflow: Load up Fugue Machine as a midi generator. The 4 playheads of Fugue Machine each send on different channels. Then you direct those playheads/channels to 4 different audio units - a piano, a synth, some strings, and a drum machine. You expect each instrument to be sequenced from a different playhead / midi channel.

In the case of Ableton, the data from the 4 playheads would all be merged together. So the 4 audio units would all receive the same mix of midi data (from all 4 playheads). There's no easy way to filter data by midi channel once it has left the Midi Generator VST in Ableton.

Cubase, Bitwig, and VCV Rack have built in midi filters though. So this issue has been a plague on midi routing in Ableton for a while. The reason it may not get brought up much in these parts may be due to survivorship bias - the people that require this ability in their workflow likely no longer use Ableton.

Basically, something like this is what's currently missing from Ableton in regards to midi routing:

Hrmm. I do this often. I setup Fugue Machine to play on 4 different Midi Channels and then in Ableton i have 4 different instruments receiving Midi on Channels 1-4 so they play just their part.

I’ll show what i mean in a few. I do this with Drambo and BeatMaker as well when i use them as sequencers for Ableton.

Carnbot

@echoopera said:

@aleyas said:

@echoopera said:

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

Yeah. Consider a typical AUM workflow: Load up Fugue Machine as a midi generator. The 4 playheads of Fugue Machine each send on different channels. Then you direct those playheads/channels to 4 different audio units - a piano, a synth, some strings, and a drum machine. You expect each instrument to be sequenced from a different playhead / midi channel.

In the case of Ableton, the data from the 4 playheads would all be merged together. So the 4 audio units would all receive the same mix of midi data (from all 4 playheads). There's no easy way to filter data by midi channel once it has left the Midi Generator VST in Ableton.

Cubase, Bitwig, and VCV Rack have built in midi filters though. So this issue has been a plague on midi routing in Ableton for a while. The reason it may not get brought up much in these parts may be due to survivorship bias - the people that require this ability in their workflow likely no longer use Ableton.

Basically, something like this is what's currently missing from Ableton in regards to midi routing:

Hrmm. I do this often. I setup Fugue Machine to play on 4 different Midi Channels and then in Ableton i have 4 different instruments receiving Midi on Channels 1-4 so they play just their part.

Yeah, but Fugue machine from ipad to Ableton works fine because you can split channels from external sources, but Fugue machine as a vst couldn't run in Ableton properly

aleyas

@echoopera said:

@aleyas said:

@echoopera said:

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

Yeah. Consider a typical AUM workflow: Load up Fugue Machine as a midi generator. The 4 playheads of Fugue Machine each send on different channels. Then you direct those playheads/channels to 4 different audio units - a piano, a synth, some strings, and a drum machine. You expect each instrument to be sequenced from a different playhead / midi channel.

In the case of Ableton, the data from the 4 playheads would all be merged together. So the 4 audio units would all receive the same mix of midi data (from all 4 playheads). There's no easy way to filter data by midi channel once it has left the Midi Generator VST in Ableton.

Cubase, Bitwig, and VCV Rack have built in midi filters though. So this issue has been a plague on midi routing in Ableton for a while. The reason it may not get brought up much in these parts may be due to survivorship bias - the people that require this ability in their workflow likely no longer use Ableton.

Basically, something like this is what's currently missing from Ableton in regards to midi routing:

Hrmm. I do this often. I setup Fugue Machine to play on 4 different Midi Channels and then in Ableton i have 4 different instruments receiving Midi on Channels 1-4 so they play just their part.

Yeah, that's the thing. Sending multichannel into Ableton is 👌. Like from IOS sequencers, Beatstep Pro, MPC.
But doing it with the equivalent of a Fugue Machine as a VST, and internally routing it is where the trouble begins.

echoopera

@Carnbot said:

@echoopera said:

@aleyas said:

@echoopera said:

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

Yeah. Consider a typical AUM workflow: Load up Fugue Machine as a midi generator. The 4 playheads of Fugue Machine each send on different channels. Then you direct those playheads/channels to 4 different audio units - a piano, a synth, some strings, and a drum machine. You expect each instrument to be sequenced from a different playhead / midi channel.

In the case of Ableton, the data from the 4 playheads would all be merged together. So the 4 audio units would all receive the same mix of midi data (from all 4 playheads). There's no easy way to filter data by midi channel once it has left the Midi Generator VST in Ableton.

Cubase, Bitwig, and VCV Rack have built in midi filters though. So this issue has been a plague on midi routing in Ableton for a while. The reason it may not get brought up much in these parts may be due to survivorship bias - the people that require this ability in their workflow likely no longer use Ableton.

Basically, something like this is what's currently missing from Ableton in regards to midi routing:

Hrmm. I do this often. I setup Fugue Machine to play on 4 different Midi Channels and then in Ableton i have 4 different instruments receiving Midi on Channels 1-4 so they play just their part.

Yeah, but Fugue machine from ipad to Ableton works fine because you can split channels from external sources, but Fugue machine as a vst couldn't run in Ableton properly

Gotcha. Yeah. Sounds like we need a nice MultiChannel Midi Filter M4L device to sort this workflow 😉

Trying to browse for something here:
https://maxforlive.com/library/index.php?type=midi

Carnbot

@echoopera said:

Yeah there are possibilties with M4L but I'm still not sure if it works in this use case, because M4L still sends everything into midi channel one apparently when sending between tracks....at least it used to unless they updated it.

There are midi routers but they may only work with external midi etc not sure. I haven't needed to test it really as I'm happy with ipad to Ableton workflow and don't really use many multichannel sequencers yet in Live.

auxmux

@echoopera said:

@Carnbot said:

@echoopera said:

@aleyas said:

@echoopera said:

@auxmux said:
@echoopera Maschine can do this, when hosted as VST. There are number of other midi generators out now: Captain Plugins, HY Plugins sequencers, etc. - but all have the same issue where Ableton merges midi channels.

Cool. Thanks for the examples.

I own Captain PlugIns.
Which HY Sequencer?

So is the goal to use a single VST instance to send notes to multiple Channels and have a single instrument receive those notes from Multiple Channels of your choosing? Filter out what you don’t want?

Sorry if I’m being dense.

Yeah. Consider a typical AUM workflow: Load up Fugue Machine as a midi generator. The 4 playheads of Fugue Machine each send on different channels. Then you direct those playheads/channels to 4 different audio units - a piano, a synth, some strings, and a drum machine. You expect each instrument to be sequenced from a different playhead / midi channel.

In the case of Ableton, the data from the 4 playheads would all be merged together. So the 4 audio units would all receive the same mix of midi data (from all 4 playheads). There's no easy way to filter data by midi channel once it has left the Midi Generator VST in Ableton.

Cubase, Bitwig, and VCV Rack have built in midi filters though. So this issue has been a plague on midi routing in Ableton for a while. The reason it may not get brought up much in these parts may be due to survivorship bias - the people that require this ability in their workflow likely no longer use Ableton.

Basically, something like this is what's currently missing from Ableton in regards to midi routing:

Hrmm. I do this often. I setup Fugue Machine to play on 4 different Midi Channels and then in Ableton i have 4 different instruments receiving Midi on Channels 1-4 so they play just their part.

Yeah, but Fugue machine from ipad to Ableton works fine because you can split channels from external sources, but Fugue machine as a vst couldn't run in Ableton properly

Gotcha. Yeah. Sounds like we need a nice MultiChannel Midi Filter M4L device to sort this workflow 😉

Trying to browse for something here:
https://maxforlive.com/library/index.php?type=midi

If you find one, that would be amazing. I looked for one for years, but haven't found it. I think it's because of how Ableton handles VSTs. M4L doesn't help, because the data is already merged when it's output from the VST. Filters from external midi sources aren't an issue.

michael_m

Maybe Blue Cat Patchwork would work?

https://www.bluecataudio.com/Doc/Product_PatchWork/

I haven’t used its MIDI functionality, but it’s great for complex plugin routing.

auxmux

@michael_m said:
Maybe Blue Cat Patchwork would work?

https://www.bluecataudio.com/Doc/Product_PatchWork/

I haven’t used its MIDI functionality, but it’s great for complex plugin routing.

This is the equivalent of hosting VSTs in Maschine. While midi and audio processing inside Patchworks would be fine. Outputting any midi to Ableton itself would be the same problem.

echoopera

@Carnbot @auxmux yeah this is something which should be a part of the Instrument Rack Device so as these type of Modular plug-Ins become more common hopefully we’ll see it added at the device level for better routing.

I think SugarBytes Modular VST is going to help open this door for Ableton Users…and frustrate them as well 😜

Carnbot

Yeah that's true..hope these new apps will force a change, at least you can sequence multiple external instruments just fine with Ableton and that's what I would use the modular sequencer with.

Or wait until the ipad version, which is what I'll probably do anyway

auxmux

Yeah, not being able to send/record midi from Maschine is what pushed me more towards iOS to begin with, but VCV's flexibility has me using it again. Maybe, they'll realize this for Ableton 12, 6 or so versions late.

echoopera

WooHoo! BitWig 4 has been released today Fun times

aleyas

@echoopera said:
WooHoo! BitWig 4 has been released today Fun times

The new operators really take it to the next level! Reminds me of Drambo's step components. New we can set probability over retriggers, velocity, transpose, chance, and just so much - all on a per note basis. Really insane! Not to mention each note in the piano roll can be assigned to a unique midi channel too - making composing from a single clip super easy.

auxmux

Wow, nice, re: channel per note. I need to upgrade my plan, hehe.