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Stuck in loops
Something that I struggle with regularly, and as far back as using fruityloops in the late late nineties or even cakewalk before that is getting stuck making loops, without developing them into longer more structured pieces.
One of the things that drew me into iOS music was the unstructured, but mostly loop free world of using AUM, but as I’ve tried to go beyond recording jams, I’ve quickly got stuck back in loops with midi editors and other trigger based apps.
I especially find this in drambo, which I love tinkering in, but find it hard to break out of that cycle of ‘create a great loop, then keep adding to it until it’s got boring’
I’m wondering what strategies or tactics people have for avoiding this, and developing more structured music/pieces, and thought it might prompt an interesting discussion…
Comments
I can and often do get stuck in 'loop mode' as well.
One tip I've learned from Grand Master Doug @thesoundtestroom is to duplicate/extend the scenes/patterns and add variations. This way it's easier to collect material for the later arrangement if the stuff feels 'worthy'.
Same applies when using sections in say GarageBand and in the case of GarageBand sections are essential since it's the only way to loop a portion of the arrangement.
So the one tip that usually saves me from 'stuck in a loop' is to duplicate, add/modify, duplicate & repeat.
I know it's easier said than done but that's at least a good starter.
Personally I lack the patience to arrange pieces into longer arrangements so I'm stuck with a bunch of 1-8 bar chunks...
...as I mostly enjoy experimenting with different kinds of sounds and effects.
As for Drambo, I know how easy it is to get 'stuck in the loop' and start to tinker with the sounds
Start with a plan in mind, decide what your structure is likely to be and then make passages to fit that structure. It doesn't need to be strict or in munite detail, but a rough plan will do.
One way of doing this is to define chord progressions for each section you want up front.
How do you create content when not using loops?
I tend to just play, generally with a basic beat (loop 😁) though without your chops/experience it tends to be more noodle than improv…
@AndyPlankton - The laying out a chord structure is a great one, for some reason I tend to make my changes too often, and they end up feeling a bit loopy as well though… I should focus maybe on longer runs on the same chord that can be played over I guess?
And @Samu , the variations thing is what I try for, but as you probably find as well, it’s hard to shift out of gear into more interesting changes…
When i have a loop going, the way to break out of being stuck in that ‘A’ section loop is to try and write a B section.
You can take an element or two from the A section and either change the chords, break it down, whatever comes to mind. I will often make different baselines for example, and Chuck them all into
into Blocswave.
Once in blocswave I resemble the main loop there. Then I’ll duplicate the loop and remove certain elements and try some of the other bass lines, swap out drum loops etc. Hitting the auto pad to get random things into the section can inspire new ideas.
Then when I have a few sections, A, b c etc, if I don’t have a solid arrangement idea I’ll export the blocswave session into launchpad and jam out arrangement ideas there which can be a lot of fun.
From there when the arrangement is taking shape I usually export the stems from blocswave into a proper DAW where I can finish it. In my case that’s usually Logic on a Mac but you could use an iOS daw.
On iPhone I quite like NS2 for this. I just import all the blocswave stems into Slate tracks to trigger the audio. This works well as blocswave has already time stretched and matched the pitch so I just need to draw in midi notes to play rhe sections. It’s fairly easy to chop the loops up further inside slate to remix the loops too (I put the full loop on one pad then duplicate it a number of times and trim the loop by selecting different sections of the loop with the grid snap enabled — this makes it easy to chop an 8 bar loop into 1 bar sections for example).
The reason I use blocswave as an intermediary step is that it’s the best and quickest way I’ve found to be able to jam out arrangement ideas and come up with different sections. It loads on my iPhone very quickly and I’m ready to go in seconds. It also takes away a lot of distractions. It’s so simple that you end up just making music rather than tweaking LFOs, ADSRs and getting lost in the weeds.
Whenever I make a loop in any other app I’ll export the stems to blocswave. After a while you build up a big library of your own sounds. It could just be a few drum loops from a drum machineapp or a cool bass line from pure acid. or a fairly full 8 bar loop. Just keep throwing all the stems into BW and forget about them.
Then when you need a new section you have a load of staring points that Bw will play in time and pitch shifted to suit whatever you’re working on. Matching bits of loops you created months apart that were originally in different keys and tempos is a good way of finding the B and C sections for your song.
This sounds like a really interesting workflow. For the town midiot, could you please explain exactly how slate triggers your loops? Is it as simple as it sounds? ie Draw the appropriate note to trigger the slate pad?
You’ve tweaked my interest in BW again. Having a one-stop curated depository for ideas and loops is a missing piece for me. Thanks - I’m going to try it again. If you ever fancy makings screen recording of your process, I’m sure I won’t be the only interested viewer...
My blessing and my curse is that I am never trying to make a ‘well made song’, verse chorus etc. Because I simply don’t know how to.
So instead I create some kind of evolving soundscape in AUM which may or may not involve File Players, Generative MIDI and the like. Initially everything is running all at once, usually creating a right old din.
Then I use a variety of tricks to thin the event stream: muting and unmuting tracks manually or via MIDILFOs or MM1, duping a channel, and switching elements of the copy out, duping a MIDI clip from Atom 2 and sending it, at a different tempo and probability to a different channel; half or double speeding a File Player copy, etc.
Then I either record everything internally as wav files, live for porting to Audio Evolution or from the AUM session folder into Ableton if I’m doing a proper posh mix, or as a screen recording of the AUM sesh if I want to capture pre-transport startup noises and reverb trails quick n dirty like.
I almost never actually ‘play’ anything. As my critics often point out…
But more often than not I end up making the kind of Dark Ambient noise I like to hear. I’m pretty sure if I did know how to play anything, or music theory, or indeed anything, really, I’d end up feeling very constrained. I tried with the shop bought loops a few times… didn’t take. The Beginner Mind and all that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin
So I just set an arbitrary time limit - 5 or 10 minutes usually - set everything running with little to no intervention from me, and bosh, when time is up, job’s a good’un. A quick port to AudioShare, top n tail, and on to SoundCloud. Do it, post it, move on…
Increasingly, I admit, I wished I had the chops to take things to the next level, but for now keeping it fast and loose seems if nothing else good prep for that magical day when proper composition and arrangement finally click with me.
If they ever do…
I use to draw out my arrangements to get me started:
https://tarekith.com/articles/ArrangingSongs.pdf
“ I tend to just play, generally with a basic beat (loop 😁) though without your chops/experience it tends to be more noodle than improv…”
It seems like you have two choices... seriously begin to learn to improvise (you def can do it). PM me if you want cheap advice. Or you can record long stretches of “noodling” and cull the good stuff from it. Identifying what’s worth refining is half the battle.
Really interesting article, thank you, I’ll delve deeper later. I think somewhere between this and @Svetlovska sculptural approach, mixed with more refined improv (I only did a bit of that great set of lessons you posted ages ago @LinearLineman but I’ll go back to it)
I hope this thread continues, it’s all really good stuff coming from everyone!
Exactly. I load a few loops into slate. I use a bunch of skates if I want different fx on each.
Then I just set the pad to ‘Sustain’ not one shot and draw in midi to trigger the loop.
I may do that if I get the time….
It is simple though. The key is to keep feeding BW with loops. If you’re mucking about in Drambo, messing with a drum machine, playing with bits and bobs in AUM, record everything to audio and Chuck it into BlocsWave.
I find BW can help give me ideas to write the B section (or verse/chorus etc).
I've struggled with being stuck in the loop for years, but I've recently begun to really find my way out of it. Everyone has a different method, but there are a few things that have worked for me.
Once I get an 8 or 16 bar loop going, I force myself into arrangement as quickly as possible. If I'm in Ableton Live's session view or the clip launch view in Zenbeats, BM3, etc, I will even delete all of the clips and simply leave them in my project folder so that I'm not tempted to go back to the loop. I have to add the elements from the folder one at a time, or duplicate them on the timeline. As a consequence of this, I am forced to listen to the part within the context of the arrangement, which is very helpful for the way I perceive it. Another consequence of this is that I stop playing the loop over and over until I've lost perspective on it. You mention that you keep adding to loops until they get boring. I think it's important to recognize that the loop doesn't get boring, you get bored with it from overplay. Listening to a dope loop I've made gives me a rush of happy neurotransmitters. Like a drug, it's tempting to want to do it over and over again. I have to stop myself from doing this, or I will get burned out on the loop. I also can get so attached to the loop as it is that I'm unable to arrange it out because I can't bring myself to properly edit it or place it in context. I develop an emotional attachment to what I've vaguely fantasized the loop could be so that everything I actually am able to do with it seems to fall short. This loss of perspective can take a long time of leaving the idea alone to overcome. It is much better to simply jump into arrangement ASAP.
When an arrangement is calling for a new section, I usually make use of the "sliding plates" method, pulling some aspect of the previous section over into the next, changing maybe the timbre or the instrument playing it. This helps to give the song coherence. Then I just listen to where the song "wants" to go next. Sometimes at this point I will go back into session/clip launch view and start building another loop, including whatever I want to incorporate from the previous section, quickly moving back into arrangement once the loop is built.
While I'm doing all of this, I am not focused on minutiae or perfection. I see this process as the creation of a rough draft. The idea is to get the basic structure laid out so that I have boundaries to work within. It is so much easier for me to finish a song once I have the basic structure laid out. It has been very important for me to give myself permission to make something that's not very good to "completion", which is really just my rough draft, because then I can much more easily come back and spruce it up. One example is that I'll do an entire arrangement with the same drum loop throughout, no variation whatsoever. Then I'll come back and fix the drums, sometimes replacing the loop entirely. Before I started working this way, I would get bogged down in the details and never finish anything. Now, I feel like I can attack the arrangement process confidently and with less stress.
When I'm doing a rough arrangement, that's ALL I'm doing. I don't focus on anything else. Then, when it's time to make the drums dope, do the mixing, add ear candy, or whatever it is, I am free to do that within a context that is already formed. It makes everything more manageable and a lot more fun.
I view this process as one of delayed gratification. There is a lot of short term gratification in a dope loop, but it is too often followed by burn out and frustration. It is a pitfall which requires discipline to avoid. Instead of rocking and adding to the loop for hours because it feels good, I start arrangement as soon as I have enough to work with. This part feels more like work than fun. Once the structure is laid out, however, the fun and reward returns. I love editing drums to add interest within the context of an already completed arrangement. The fruits of the labor are immediately apparent. I can hear the song getting more and more polished as I go. It's like turning a rough sculpture into a refined sculpture. I can do it with confidence once the basic shape is there. In the end, I have something that is actually rewarding and meaningful that doesn't leave me burned out and frustrated.
Hard drugs hijack the reward system which is meant to reward me for actually doing something meaningful with my life. Loops seem to hijack the reward system which is meant to reward me for actually creating a piece of music.
(Edited to break up the wall of text. Excited about this topic because I've struggled with loopitis for so long and wanted to get what I've discovered out.)
That's what I do too at times and once you think that you've added enough, make a bunch of pattern duplicates and start muting all tracks except a few. Bass and drums, bass and lead, drums and chords...
Play with such minimal combinations and don't hesitate to add something completely different, maybe on a new instrument track, whenever it comes to mind.
The rest will follow naturally.
Excellent. Thank you.
The random slice function will give you a significant amount of variation. Just remember to flatten the part you are working on first.
Come to think of it Loopy Pro will probably help with this.
Interesting read in this whole topic...
@Svetlovska i'm too much of a fanboy of yours to not say it... you're my muse! 😍 Gotta be more like you. Remember when I was a teen and would just 'wing it' more, and got more results. Today I overthink too much
Case in point... @klownshed and others who use blocswave... do y'all manage chord progressions with it?
I do it changing the key of the project and export to BM3 for arrangement. But sometimes it seems too much of a hassle 😴
Ooh. Before I forget, this one is gold. Whenever I try to work only with 3-4 tracks (Drums, Bass, Pads, Lead), it seems I can get a better full structure. And then you can approach with other instruments and loops and layer it in said structure.
If I try to structure with too many instruments at the start, it gets muddy fast.
That's why things like Egoist, Figure, Dot Melody or iDS-10 are my first options generally
@insight very good advice, switching to arrangement view. I agree with the losing perspective part.
But I do have a problem. DAWs in iOS are not “perfect” and that is specially true for arrangement mode. For example in Zenbeats, clip mode is a joy to use. It’s fun, fast… then you switch to arranger mode and all the dragging and splitting is just not that enjoyable. To me it feels like no one has really figured out an arrangement daw that takes advantage of the touch screen and fingers, you usually wish you had a mouse… So, back to your advice, I know o should go into arrangement mode but I more often than not don’t because I’m gonna get frustrated dragging stuff that won’t drag…
That’s brilliant @insight, and yeah, it’s me getting bored with it rather than it becoming boring for sure… great stuff everybody, really inspiring and invigorating!
I completely agree. I should have included this as a full disclosure: I always export to Ableton Live when it’s time to arrange. It’s just a “best tool for the job” thing to me. I mentioned the iOS daws for other examples of a clip launching view for those who might not be familiar with Live. I’ve tried on iOS, but it ultimately just slows me down and causes unneeded frustration. The touch interface is too fiddly for my arrangement workflow. I feel you on having to try multiple times just to drag a clip, lol. I do believe I could use ZenBeats for more simple arrangements or in a pinch if I didn’t have access to my computer. It’s definitely my favorite iOS daw so far, but it certainly would require more patience and persistence. So yeah, as it stands, I use the iPad for coming up with ideas and the desktop for fleshing them out. I really considered trying to go full iOS for a bit there, but I decided my primary goal is to finish songs and I should use whatever tools allow me to do that with the least impediments.
👍
I usually have a chord progression hard wired into the stems. If I want something different I tend to just make it in another app such as NS2 or AUM.
However, it’s easy to make variations. Tap the cell you want to change key for, then find it in the list of user loops (one of the areas in which BW could do with an update is better file handling!). It will be highlighted.
Then, change the default key of the loop by tapping the little cog icon (Don’t change the key of the song). It should now sound different when you play it. Then long tap the cell again at the top of the screen and select ‘flatten’ from the menu. Go back to the original loop in the user loop list and change the key back to what it was originally.
You now have a new loop fixed to a different key and the original loop. The new one will be at the very end of the user loops list under ‘flattened’
I just tell myself 'well that loop is boring', then I copy it over on the timeline and make a new one out of it, then I tell myself 'that loop sucks', so I copy it over and make a new one, then I think 'bet if I went reeeeaaaly out there on this next one it wouldn't be such a piece of shit' etc... rinse repeat about 6-9 times, adding new loops end to end.
Then I listen to all of the loops together and realize they actually sound decent as a sequence. Smooth out a few clunky transitions, shift it all over a few bars to make an intro then copy one of the first loops to the end and add a new track to it that kind of speaks to all of them thematically. Then wherever it goes it goes.
You could try experimenting, creating a song like 'Flutter' from Autechre's Anti EP, pretending like the law is on your ass.
This is the largest wall of text I’ve seen in this forum!
I get the impression there’s some great insights in there, but if you could edit your post and break it into paragraphs by adding some double-returns at various points, that’d be awesome.
(This forum’s version of Markdown formatting might be strict, and not recognise single carriage returns as paragraphs.)
I get a loop I like made and force myself to make a part B once I have the first part made then get a part C and sometimes D. Then I arrange the stems from those loops into a song and just make minor changes from that and finish it up. I push myself rather quickly when doing it otherwise I would never move on.
LOL.
Yeah, I got halfway through it and the headache started :-)
@klownshed
Dude... Thanks so much! I'll be damned. I knew I was probably missing on some features or workflow
Makes total sense! Huge love, mate 💕
edit: I was missing on the flatten feature and the way you change the key for the clip. I always thought that was only for tagging. Just tried with the Throw Organ from the Desert Rock pack. Left a clip playing in Cm, did all the process you mentioned and pulled another in Am in slot two. Wow... layering possibilities 😎🤘
@klownshed Any chance you've seen this iOS shortcut I made earlier this year? It would allow you to instantly send a Blocs Wave zip file to Nanostudio 2.
Send stems to apps (New)
https://routinehub.co/shortcut/8859/
Other ones that could help
Send audio to app (for a single loop)
https://routinehub.co/shortcut/5189/
Send stems to Blocs Wave (e.g. send Groovebox stems to Blocs Wave)
https://routinehub.co/shortcut/5046/
Was a great read. Learnt another use of Blocs Wave than I normally would have done. Might make a video on it if I get enough time off work.
EDIT: To use an iOS shortcut made by someone else, you must have made or run an iOS shortcut before.
One of my favorite ways of coming up with live sets is to start with a really awesome sounding pattern, copy it to a new pattern location, and then delete the two least-interesting synth and two least-interesting drum parts. Create new sounds and notes for those 4 new tracks, then repeat the process over and over until you have like 8-16 patterns/loops.
Very quickly you create a progression of ideas that loosely makes sense in a linear fashion, and you can then use that to perform the arrangement on the fly via muting and unmuting tracks. I've been doing this for years to create live sets on devices that lack obvious functionality for playing non-stop music live.
I love things like the MC707 that let you freely grab phrases from almost anywhere in your project and combine them on the fly. But the method above works with almost any groovebox oriented device, or pattern based sequencer like Live, BM3, GB, Grovebox, etc.