The Problem with Subscription Apps

ElektrikDiva

@Svetlovska said:
I have literally hundreds of apps now. If I had to pay subs on each, I’d be bankrupt.This also means that outside of a fistful of essentials like AUM, Cykle, Alteza reverb, MIDILFOs and MIDIgates, I use any given synth or effect once in a blue moon. I like it that way, keeps my sounds and workflow fresh having such a massive choice.

I will never, under any circumstances whatsoever, ever pay a sub for a musical instrument, effect, sequencer, or whatnot, no matter how good it is. Case in point - Roland. Lovely synths, but on a sub? No thanks.

I will gladly pay for upgrades or IAPs or V2s that add value to my original purchase, and have done, e.g. Moodunits, Model 15 preset packs, etc.

Although it pains me that all our apps are really on a lease, not owned, given that the day our devs give up paying the ransom to Apple, the app gets yanked, and lives, or dies then only on whatever I device you might have it on at the time.

I hate that Apple took away the possibility of proper local backup so your zombie apps, no matter how brilliant (sniff, Giant Isopod), will one day die.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Svetlovska, brilliantly stated! +1 1000%. Cheers, ED

ElektrikDiva

@Stuntman_mike said:
Expectations will rise with subscriptions!
It’s easy for Spotify to collect subscriptions because they got new content all the time, are always improving the experience and adding value.

I feel like subscriptions are where good apps go to die. 😩

Yup! ~ED

ElektrikDiva

@Poppadocrock said:
So many “subscriptions” already between bills, streaming tv, music streaming, etc… I try to avoid adding any more in general, for anything. Once you buy something it’s over, 1 time and you own it, I really don’t like adding any more things I have to worry about financially, on a regular basis. Just my two cents.

Excellent points Poppa! I have many music apps but no subs. I would have to use it everyday to make it worthwhile. Its a stressful model for the user because what if I did'nt end up using it very much last year so what a big money waste. I don't make any money on my music making so it would be very tough to justify that kind of ongoing expense. And installments just feels like a down payment and too much like a big debt bill so there is no chance I would want to get sucked into that black financial hole of commitment no matter how amazing that shiny new app is. Cheers, ED

Stuntman_mike

@Poppadocrock @ElektrikDiva I truly feel like developers should try doing “tip subscriptions”.

Maybe the following tiers as an example:
.99
4.99
9.99

That way people can tip monthly or do a one-time tip. Then offer incentives to people who subscribe to tipping like free upgrades for those who tip $4.99 or more a month. Just a thought. Finally free upgrades to newer version of the app or maybe discounts for future apps by the developer for $9.99 tip subscribers.

attakk

@Stuntman_mike said:
I feel like subscriptions are where good apps go to die. 😩

I disagree. Again, I will mention Resharper.

Stuntman_mike

@attakk said:

@Stuntman_mike said:
I feel like subscriptions are where good apps go to die. 😩

I disagree. Again, I will mention Resharper.

I understand. I’m referring to iOS music production apps.

icsleepers

Most desktop applications will continue to work even many years after they are no longer current release (There are definitely people rocking older versions of Reason for example). The nature of the App Store and the fact that the possibility for broken apps yearly due to sometimes significant OS changes makes that model not applicable here (speaking of the Resharper example). Though the way Wotja does it is probably the most analogous…

It’s just not the same thing. I’d suspect if I wanted to I could run Reason 3 or 4 on Windows at least (maybe not on Mac if they aren’t 64bit).

0tolerance4silence

I don’t understand how tips could help when sustainability is the main challenge. Why would anyone setup a business that relies on handouts?

ralis

@anickt said:

@ralis said:
The only way I would ever subscribe is if it get something new each month. Like a magazine, I own each and every issue, i get to keep them and new ones with new content come every month. I will get to keep those as well.
The problem with these “subscriptions” is you pay for a year whether you use it for the year or a day- same price! So if it is 10.00 per month it is really 120.00 no mater how you slice it and that is for a year, then you don’t own it any more. It is a lease not a subscription and if you want more money from me every month for the rest of the foreseeable future make it worth it to me, otherwise stop trying to take advantage of your customers

Nobody’s talking about a $10 a month subscription and who’s “trying to take advantage”?

I think this is a good discussion of the pros and cons of subscriptions and people’s ideas on what would or wouldn’t work. It’s the kind of info that would be helpful to devs and is not locked into any specific way of doing things.

This is is a hypothetical numeration for ease of equation.

App and software developers offering leases or Licenses and calling them subscriptions are taking advantage!

Call it what it is, you cannot keep last months version and there is nothing new in next months version! It is shady marketing and billing.

In the 90’s some Travel agencies used to (and may still) sign you up for a 1.99 “service fee” charged monthly to your CC and you just see service fee. They hope you never notice (many do not) and pay this for years to come. This technique has been used by underhanded businesses for decades.

Just because it is becoming mainstream does not mean it is acceptable.

If you want to sell me a license you use your software for a year then sell it like that, don’t offer a “monthly subscription” which it is not! Only hoping that I will forget in a year so that you continue to bilk me. It is just fraudulent scummy marketing

At least with a magazine Subscription you get 12 issues a year at usually much less than the news stand per issue price! Shipped to you sooner than the newsstand AND you are not automatically billed for the next year! That is illegal and immoral

You are more than able to buy one months issue, one at a time, you do not have to subscribe and you own those issues but there are the benefits and incentives to subscribe. It is all very clear and upfront

They want you to subscribe again and will let you know that your subscription it ending and may offer even more to keep you as a subscriber

This selling a license or leasing is is being marketed in a deceitful manner that I find abhorrent

I bought everything IK multimedia had for sample tank when it first came out, only to find my purchase “expired” a year later! There was no mention of that from the sales man. No mention of a lease, license nothing. I vote with my wallet and have never purchased anything from that company ever again and never will, nor will I recommend them to anyone

michael_m

A few years ago I followed some links in a post (not here) from someone involved in internet sales who objected to subscription models because of his inside knowledge that subscriptions benefit the vendor and not the customer.

The basic premise behind the links (which were all advice on increasing sales profits) was “why sell to a customer once when you can get them to rent forever?”

Since then I have avoided subscriptions unless absolutely necessary.

knewspeak

Let’s not forget about the sublime change to the AppStore, iOS and MacOS app conformity, this I do believe, given time, will bring new opportunities for developers.

dakti

3 cents from me. If the developer is going to switch to the subscription model, it's his right. If the user does not want to pay a subscription, he also has the right to do so. But... if the user purchased the app before it switching to subscription, then in my opinion user should keep all the features he paid for and be able to use it in that form forever. If user decide to use a new features then he can start to pay subscription.

Last days "Notability" app changed to the subscription. Developer offered existing users 1 year of free subscription, then users had to choose whether to pay subscriptions or lose access to the features they paid for. There was such a noise that the developer resign from this plan. Existing users stay with forever access to the app including purchased IAPs + possible subscription with new features if they decide for that. New users - since purchase the free version - can use very limited features only or pay subscription.

I hope in the case of similar actions with music apps Developers also leave full functionality to the users who bought the app before changing payment to subscriptions.

Does anyone remember how it was with "Auxy Studio"? It was a free app from the beginning, but paid IAPs were available. Developer after switching to subscriptions had the same plan to give current users 1 month of free subscription + as many months of subscription as they had purchased IAPs. I don't remember how it ended. Did the users who had bought IAPs also made a noise and Developer allow that users to use the app with limited functionality (basic + IAPs) without pay subscription?

krassmann

@u0421793 said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@u0421793 said:
In a manner of thinking, hardware synths that you buy then use then sell again are effectively rented

The difference with returning a rental and selling your item is significant: renting has no equity when you stop, selling does.

Yeah but you know what I mean – “I bought a Bleeb Frizzulator KY for £1000, used it for six months, sold it for £800” is kind of equiv to renting it for six months at £200, if one is the kind of person who keeps that sort of action moving for their entire involvement in the field. I suppose there’s people who habitually sell on their iPhones and iPads to buy the next new model on release, and they probably frame this as equivalent to renting each unit for a while, in their minds.

I disagree. When owning the Frizzulator and you use it only once in a while you could still sell it for 800 even if it is two years old, given that it’s in a condition as good as new. If the Frizzulator becomes a cult machine 20 years from now, your kids can sell it for 3000 🤣. Last but not least unlike the Frizzulator, noone will buy a historic software version.

What I find much more worrying is that all of our investments into apps are totally dependent on the AppStore. Any app can become a Zombie. That‘s a good reason not to pay 500 for a professional DAW. That’s why I think that as long as Apple’s monopoly exists, there won’t be a market for expensive professional software on iDevices. In this light a rental is probably the better model for high priced software as you pay for time you are actually using it.

Svetlovska

Just to highlight this very fact - I unexpectedly lost Oscilab during the last update. I had to do the ‘offload unused apps’ thing to make room for the update, and, guess what? Oscilab, unknown to me, had become a ‘zombie app’ since I bought it. It has been removed from the store. Never mind that I paid for it (and really liked it) Apple don’t care. It’s gone.

Remember that once upon a time ITunes had an option that let you do a local backup of your iPad state, including all apps?

Apple deliberately nerfed that, with the lie that what you purchased can always be downloaded from the cloud.

It can’t.

Everything we have on here is already at the mercy of Apple. Subscription is just a lower circle of that particular hell.

knewspeak

@Svetlovska said:
Just to highlight this very fact - I unexpectedly lost Oscilab during the last update. I had to do the ‘offload unused apps’ thing to make room for the update, and, guess what? Oscilab, unknown to me, had become a ‘zombie app’ since I bought it. It has been removed from the store. Never mind that I paid for it (and really liked it) Apple don’t care. It’s gone.

Remember that once upon a time ITunes had an option that let you do a local backup of your iPad state, including all apps?

Apple deliberately nerfed that, with the lie that what you purchased can always be downloaded from the cloud.

It can’t.

Everything we have on here is already at the mercy of Apple. Subscription is just a lower circle of that particular hell.

Last time I checked it was possible via ‘iMazing’ to download older purchases that no longer appear in the AppStore, via the third-party app. I restored Z3TA+ this way and Cakewalk had been long gone, unfortunately

Apple should make this easier to do, also allow backup and restore from iTunes..

It still leaves the possibility of buying an older device running an older version of iOS and resurrecting zombie apps.

Carnbot

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I think Apple are trying to push subscriptions because they want to be a service provider as that's how they will make most money, but this won't work for indie developers who'll make more money from individual app purchase selling in this micro-niche market.

In a sense we're already subscribing to the appstore as we have no choice of where else to buy from.
I really don't trust Apple and doubt I will buy a Mac as this is heading in the same direction. They're already in the process of putting Mac into the same architecture as iOS and the same hardware, so it's likely that they will try to lock down the appstore to the Mac as well and try and push subscriptions there too to gain maximum perpetual revenue.

u0421793

@krassmann said:

@u0421793 said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@u0421793 said:
In a manner of thinking, hardware synths that you buy then use then sell again are effectively rented

The difference with returning a rental and selling your item is significant: renting has no equity when you stop, selling does.

Yeah but you know what I mean – “I bought a Bleeb Frizzulator KY for £1000, used it for six months, sold it for £800” is kind of equiv to renting it for six months at £200, if one is the kind of person who keeps that sort of action moving for their entire involvement in the field. I suppose there’s people who habitually sell on their iPhones and iPads to buy the next new model on release, and they probably frame this as equivalent to renting each unit for a while, in their minds.

I disagree. When owning the Frizzulator and you use it only once in a while you could still sell it for 800 even if it is two years old, given that it’s in a condition as good as new. If the Frizzulator becomes a cult machine 20 years from now, your kids can sell it for 3000 🤣. Last but not least unlike the Frizzulator, noone will buy a historic software version.

What I find much more worrying is that all of our investments into apps are totally dependent on the AppStore. Any app can become a Zombie. That‘s a good reason not to pay 500 for a professional DAW. That’s why I think that as long as Apple’s monopoly exists, there won’t be a market for expensive professional software on iDevices. In this light a rental is probably the better model for high priced software as you pay for time you are actually using it.

Er, it’s not Apple’s monopoly

It’s Korgs

ashh

@Stuntman_mike said:

Very true! I just started my hardware journey with the MPC One, MicroFreak and Strymon NightSky…

No one likes a show off, Mike.

tk32

Here's a model that could work:

Buying the app gets you 100 hours of active use.

...once you go over 100 hours you have to pay again (or pay a slightly lower renewal fee)

...same at 200 hours.

(discuss)

ashh

@tk32 said:
Here's a model that could work:

Buying the app gets you 50 hours of active use.

...once you go over 50 hours you have to pay again (or pay a slightly lower renewal fee)

...same at 100 hours.

(discuss)

Interesting. I think it's not going to gain any new subscription model fans though due to the fact that some people will burn through those hours in a week. Then 2 weeks, so, yeah, you could tweak the hours I guess. How about per hour rental? Serious question.

tk32

I already did tweak the hours

ashh

@tk32 said:
I already did tweak the hours

lol.

"Ok, so you have 1 hour at first and then, well, how does 1 and a half sound!?"

attakk

@ashh said:

@tk32 said:
Here's a model that could work:

Buying the app gets you 50 hours of active use.

...once you go over 50 hours you have to pay again (or pay a slightly lower renewal fee)

...same at 100 hours.

(discuss)

Interesting. I think it's not going to gain any new subscription model fans though due to the fact that some people will burn through those hours in a week. Then 2 weeks, so, yeah, you could tweak the hours I guess. How about per hour rental? Serious question.

As you said earlier, the model is already there with hourly bike & scooter rental in the UK. In fact car hire when on holiday - we’ve been doing this in reality since forever: 7 days carhire with 1000km limit: drive 1200km and you pay extra.

Where the model differs I suppose is if in 3 years time you want to go back and experience the holiday exactly the same and you have to have exactly the same car to do it.

Personally I can’t ever imagine going back to a project 3 years later and wishing to work on it again, I’m very much of the “write it now, record it now, finish it now, mix it, master it, push it out, move on to the next one” mindset, I find it odd to want to revisit an old track but then that’s me.

Like ex-partners: once it’s done then it’s done - never go back.

ashh

@attakk said:
Personally I can’t ever imagine going back to a project 3 years later and wishing to work on it again, I’m very much of the “write it now, record it now, finish it now, mix it, master it, push it out, move on to the next one” mindset, I find it odd to want to revisit an old track but then that’s me.

Yeah and, well, stems. Like, what happens if iOS is updated and your app plain does not work on it due to the dev deciding not to bother? I mean, if you pay once then is it fair to expect functionality forever? Or how long, if not?

eta: this forum functionality is a massive aargh. Sorry, espiegel but I'm sure we can critique stuff without upsetting the owner, right?

Samu

@tk32 said:
Here's a model that could work:

Buying the app gets you 100 hours of active use.

...once you go over 100 hours you have to pay again (or pay a slightly lower renewal fee)

...same at 200 hours.

(discuss)

This could work with a few minor adjustments. Instead of hours call it 'active days'.

Way back in time (forgot the name of the app/apps) I had some 'Shareware/Trial' apps that worked for '30 Days', not continuous 'calendar days' but 'active use days' so you could use the app one day here, one day there and once those 30 days were out 'save' got disabled but the app still worked in 'read only' mode and you could still export saved files but you could not modify them.

There's nothing worse that the 'hours expired counter' popping up in when 'in the zone'.

Naturally paying for a serial 'unlocked' the app and one could keep on using it until next major release and if you decided to update you could pay and get a new serial.

Apple does seem to allow some similar procedures as the SetApp includes licenses for iOS/iPadOS apps...
...so those who already pay for SetApp can scan a QR code in the iOS app to unlock the included app or pay Subscription IAP to unlock it if they are not using SetApp.

So yeah, since Apples 'payment monopoly' seems to be loosing up the QR code way could work?
(ie. pay on-line and scan the code in the app, but that would be tricky to do 'on device' unless there's a way to send the QR url to the app from the web-page, or save the image and import it into the app for verification).

Outside of the AppStore I have very few paid apps installed, Renoise is one of them.

My Renoise License is good to 3.5 including all the 3.5.x updates, for 3.6.0 I'd have to pay again.
Current version is 3.3.2 and with the phase the updates come I'll be good for a few more years.
(If it's still going strong when it's time to renew, I'll pay for it again).

The downside of this is that in order for this to work developers would have to 'gamble' a bit...
...who is willing to risk multiple years of development, release the app with '30-Day Free Trial' and hope users will pay for it?

Cheers!

ecou

@u0421793 said:
In a manner of thinking, hardware synths that you buy then use then sell again are effectively rented

That is a very flawed way of thinking.

Stuntman_mike

@ashh said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

Very true! I just started my hardware journey with the MPC One, MicroFreak and Strymon NightSky…

No one likes a show off, Mike.

😂

michael_m

@Svetlovska said:
Just to highlight this very fact - I unexpectedly lost Oscilab during the last update. I had to do the ‘offload unused apps’ thing to make room for the update, and, guess what? Oscilab, unknown to me, had become a ‘zombie app’ since I bought it. It has been removed from the store. Never mind that I paid for it (and really liked it) Apple don’t care. It’s gone.

Remember that once upon a time ITunes had an option that let you do a local backup of your iPad state, including all apps?

Apple deliberately nerfed that, with the lie that what you purchased can always be downloaded from the cloud.

It can’t.

Everything we have on here is already at the mercy of Apple. Subscription is just a lower circle of that particular hell.

Aren’t apps removed by the developer though? I don’t think apple has control over that. Regardless of the method by which they are sold and made available, they are still the intellectual property of the developer.

knewspeak

@michael_m said:

@Svetlovska said:
Just to highlight this very fact - I unexpectedly lost Oscilab during the last update. I had to do the ‘offload unused apps’ thing to make room for the update, and, guess what? Oscilab, unknown to me, had become a ‘zombie app’ since I bought it. It has been removed from the store. Never mind that I paid for it (and really liked it) Apple don’t care. It’s gone.

Remember that once upon a time ITunes had an option that let you do a local backup of your iPad state, including all apps?

Apple deliberately nerfed that, with the lie that what you purchased can always be downloaded from the cloud.

It can’t.

Everything we have on here is already at the mercy of Apple. Subscription is just a lower circle of that particular hell.

Aren’t apps removed by the developer though? I don’t think apple has control over that. Regardless of the method by which they are sold and made available, they are still the intellectual property of the developer.

Not 100% but I think Apple somehow has the right to host the released versions of the App, Cakewalk ceased trading yet I was still able to download the last released version of Z3TA+, it may be in the terms and conditions that apply to developers.

Svetlovska

Perhaps devs on here can advise, but my understanding is that if a dev doesn’t re up their fee to Apple every year, their apps are yanked, and even if you bought it, if your only copy is ‘in the cloud’ at that point, it’s gone for good. Also, I tried Imazing. Didn’t find the apps I lost last time this happened. (And it’s happened to me now with more than a few bought and paid for apps.)