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@richardyot, I prefer the 6xx but it is 300 ohms…. A no go without an amp. Is that right? (I think that’s my last question! Thx for your forbearance.
I can drive mine straight out of the iPad or iPhone without an amp.
@richardyot, I ordered the 560s. We’ll see what happens next! Have a great weekend.
I bought a pair for my 16 year old son at Christmas, they’re terrific sounding and great value as well.
@richardyot, Kim looking forward to them and it’s nice to know the 650 or 6xx is always waiting in the wings.
Wow, $200 per month on the upper west side. I think for most of the rents for a 2 bedroom there, $200 is roughly one day of rent…very different.
My friend bought his place for $250.000 in the late 80’s (70’s and west end) and paid it off long ago. I can’t even imagine what it’s worth now! But needless to say he has less stress because of that.
On topic, for IEM’s, custom molded ones make a huge difference. All of the problems that are being discussed here with fit, sound, worry about pushing things too deep, etc, do not exist with custom molds.
It’s very unlikely you’d push a generic set so far in that you’d hurt yourself (but people prove everyday that nothing is impossible!), so I wouldn’t worry too much there. Any tip is going to be far too big to actually fit down your ear canal- they really sit at the opening of it. Custom ones can reach past the bend, which is why you get better bass. With balanced armature drivers, you need bone conduction for the lows to really pop. With dynamic drivers for the lows it’s less of an issue but a good fit is still needed.
For listening though, I wouldn’t recommend custom IEM’s anyway. They’re really designed for stage/ studio tracking use when blocking out noise from the outside. Ok, maybe they weren’t designed for studio tracking use but I do like to use them there.
Do some sound really good? Yes, but I think you have the right idea for pleasure listening.
As far as I'm aware, even cans that can be driven un-amped can sound better when amped' at least, I think this applies once specs pass the 60-80 ohm range. I've very little idea about the amping world, though. Pretty sure that most pro-sumer audio interfaces handle the job admirable, so that might be preferable for a producer.
It's something worth looking into, perhaps.
The Apple earbuds aren't that bad at all. I actually used to use them all the time, as I was able to have them in while working and not be completely isolated from the outside world. I found them to be very comfortable (especially with sleeves on) and could listen without fatigue all day long. I might even see how well I can get stuff to translate with them, now.
For the most part that's just a hi-fi myth. If a source can drive high impedance cans at a listenable volume, then it's good enough. There are theoretical benefits to having higher voltage for very large dynamic swings (like canons being fired for example) but these are really edge cases that don't apply to listening to music.
In practice driving a 600hom pair of HD650s straight from the iPad sounds just as good as driving them from a £200 amp (I know because I've done both). An amp will go louder for sure, much louder, but the iPad or Apple dongle are loud enough for me.
If need be though there are inexpensive USB DACs available now that can drive high-impedance headphones.
This is worth a watch for anyone who doubts you can really drive high impedance headphones from a phone:
The old devices had really good 3.5mm jacks, the iPad Air 2 is not that bad either so...
Just like Apple 'bumped up' the 3.5mm jack for the new MacBook Pro's the same could and should be done for the next iPad Pro's!
@richardyot .. I thought the 650s were 300 ohms? It’ll be getting the 560 tomorrow . I’ll repot on it.
Btw I found an interesting seller, Headphones.com, they have a nice forum and an astounding 365 day return policy. Do you know it?
How many different headphones have you tried and with how many amps?
It's not that I'm doubting your experience, nor that of the video creator. It may just be that the HD600's are one of a number of cans that might not need amping (even with higher ohm-age), nor particularly respond well to it (Or, in this case, not register any discernible difference at all). But I think it's very much over-reaching to conclude from such a small data-set that the benefits of amping, other than to provide volume boosts, are just "hi-fi myth".
I don't have any of my own experience to tell. I've always tried to buy cans/iems that suit the sound-character I'm after, but that are also known to do well without amping. So I've never made my own comparisons. But over the last 11 years on HF, I've read hundreds of reviews/accounts/anecdotes, from members who own anywhere between 10 and 30 different cans/iems, in combination with many different types of amping solutions, who tell a different story.
Is the top-tier of hi-fi prone to snake-oil claims? Absolutely! But somewhere between people insisting that nothing but $1000 cables are worth using and your account of amping resulting in improvements in sound quality being a myth, are a large group fo people who have experience matching specific amps to specific headphones towards improved fidelity.
Yeah sorry that was a typo 😀
Looking forward to your impressions.
@el_bo the view I take is that if the amp is delivering adequate volume with no distortion or colouration then it’s doing it’s job. From what I can tell that’s exactly what’s happening when you drive HD650s straight from the iPad headphone jack, or from the Apple dongle.
I wonder if some people have an extra sensitivity to subtle differences in sound. I know I don’t, but maybe it’s like oenophilia…. Tho I would imagine you’d have that sensitivity, Richard. Or maybe it’s just the Emperor’s New Phones.
Lots of studies have been made over the years of the psychology of sound: when people (both experts and amateurs) can see the brand names on the equipment they hear all sorts of differences between cheap and expensive gear. But when the tests are done blind those differences usually disappear.
The same thing happens with wine: when people can see the label they usually favour the more expensive wine, but in blind tastings they don’t.
The view I take is that subjective impressions are not reliable, unless they are backed up with measurements and data. I trust a graph way more than a subjective review 😃
Dr Floyd Toole talks about it in this video I posted in the thread on monitoring and sound reproduction:
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/47704/collected-thoughts-on-sound-reproduction-and-monitoring
@richardyot, your post jarred me into thinking about what’s going on politically. It’s in the interest of profit to create a market for a product or idea. Effort goes into getting endorsements, citing “studies”,
Anecdotal evidence, etc, to foment a perception. Then that perception takes on the varnish of truth and people say “Look, so many people believe this… there must be something to it!”
For me, I’m just glad I won’t have to spend an extra couple of hundred and live in a sea of cables to get an improved listening experience.
Everything written here is true, but none of it addresses your original claims or my counter-claims.
I'll just re-quote myself:
And just to add: every aspect of an amp's performance is measurable and quantifiable (frequency response, distortion etc) so as long as the amp can deliver adequate volume without distortion or colouration then what else is there to say? I know some people claim to hear differences in things like soundstage or dynamics between different amps, but personally I don't think those types of subjective evaluations are reliable.
@richardyot, I’m having fun whiling away a Saturday afternoon [waiting for my 560s, now arriving today) researching amps/dacs, hps, etc. lol, I already want to upgrade to 650s!
Anyway, it occurs to me that the Apple preamp/amp components are superior to most other devices…. Could it be that dac/amps are useful for non Apple devices, but not really necessary for Apple stuff?
Btw, I read that the 650s can have a 600 ohm “spike” somewhere on the frequency range. Does that sound right… and what does it mean?
If I were to experiment with an amp I would probably try the Schitt magni heresy for $119 cause it has rca line in and could be plugged into the iPad headphone Jack (most others just have usb, optical in). Still, if an amp is not necessary than that money can be spent on better phones. This all is interesting and nicely distracting from real life.
Interesting... this graph provides a clue to this type of audiophile detail:
https://forum.audiob.us/uploads/editor/ca/ug6l6kdl5ist.png
Those high end frequencies are probably beyond my range of hearing and yours too.
I hope you're having fun renting these devices. In the end I predict you'll prefer the Apple stuff you started with and learn dozens of lessons in the process.
@McD @richardyot, yes, I’m having a great time investigating this stuff. I’ve been listening for an hour on the Sennheiser HD560s. Here are some thoughts…
How great the Sony 7506s are for the price. And I can see how they are pretty neutral and are a good mixing hp.
A real WOW listening experience with the 560s.. They are colored, for sure… in a good way. The contrast between them and the 7506…. Warmer, richer, more forgiving. Less harsh in the treble and deeper, more rounded bass. The mids are excellent, too. Much more detail, as well with superior instrument separation, I think.
I’ve auditioned classic jazz tracks, but, frankly, the recordings themselves are lacking due to their age. I’ve gotten the best test off Sondheim’s Sweeney Todd, Johnny Depp version. The contrast between the 7506 and 560s is palpable. There is some dialogue and there the increased richness in the 560s is very noticeable. Aside from Sondheim’s genius and Depp’s incredible skill set, the music itself comes off expansive and full of feeling with the 560s. Good, but not as immersive with the 7506…. Like sitting in a straight back chair as compared to an ergonomic recliner. The 560s feel more comfortable.
The best result was with my own tracks. The expression was rounder, gentler with the 560s, yet the impact was still there when needed. Since they’re all produced in a vacuum there was no acoustic orroom noise picked up. It was a rather pure experience without the coldness of the 7506 which, to my ears, is not very forgiving in portraying my production inadequacies… hence, better for mixing.
The head clamping with the 560d is pretty noticeable. But I understand the headband will relax with time.
The volume needed to be cranked a bit with the 120 ohm 560s. I usually find myself around 7.5 on the Apple volume scale. Some classical stuff required a nine or even 10 to produce a good volume.
Bottom line, the 560s are great for pure listening. If a headphone amp only provides increased volume, one is not necessary with the 560s for almost any track.
Question, Richard: I’m so entrapped now with wanting a better listening experience that I could see spending $200 to $200 more. Would the 650s give me something more? And considering my volume is almost topped out at 130 ohms, can the Apple onboard amp really handle a 300ohm device? If yes, I’ll give them a try. Otherwise I’ll probably stick with the 560s.
This has been a very rewarding experience in my journey from iems to open backed phones. Thanks for the help.
If you at all want to go headphones only , any brand which can reproduces their “whole” frequency range can be ok. And it’s a good idea to stick with one you finally love for a long time .Don’t get into that “flat” marketing nonsense. If you really want “flat” , headphones are not the optimum choice open or closed.
The key is to listen to your mix (rough) on television , cars, mono Bluetooth speakers, phones, YouTube and above all referencing and that will help you translate the same on your headphones
@LinearLineman glad you’re enjoying the new phones
I’ve just borrowed my son’s 560s and spent 15 minutes comparing them to the HD650s. They have many similarities: soundstage and dynamics are pretty similar.
They have different frequency response though, the 560s are brighter and more upfront, whereas the 650 are warmer and more laid-back. This is exactly what you would expect from the frequency response graphs, so really it’s a matter of taste. I prefer the warmer sound of the HD 650 for listening to music, but I always run them through Morphit when mixing to iron out their flaws.
Here's a chart comparing the two from rtings.com:
They're pretty similar but the 560 has a little more treble. Being open cans neither can do sub-bass though.
The HD650s are quite a bit bigger and also slightly more comfortable though.
Thx @richardyot, but what about the volume comparison to the 560? Don’t the double plus ohms give a much lower volume? As the 560s are pretty up there I have some doubts.
I can drive the 650s from the phone or iPad ok. I’ll compare the volume vs the 560 tomorrow (it’s late here). 😀
Thanks for the help @richardyot.
I just tested the HD650 vs the HD560s straight out of the iPad headphone jack and also out of an iPhone 12 using the standard Apple 3.5mm to Lightning dongle.
Basically to achieve the same volume on both, the HD650 just requires one extra press on the volume buttons on the side. So yes the HD560s is slightly easier to drive straight out of the iPad, but not by much. Of course if you are already maxing out of the volume on the 560S then the HD650 might be too quiet for you. Personally I never go to full volume with them, I'm usually two notches below maximum and that is loud enough for me, but of course YMMV.
One easy way to get some extra loudness without breaking the bank would be to get a Sharkoon DAC, or a Creative Soundblaster Play 3, these are small devices that have both an amp and a DAC built in, and both should be able to drive the HD650s. I use the more expensive Dragonfly DACs to do the same thing (I have the Black and the Red), but we have a few of the Soundblaster Play 3s kicking around the house and they are just as good, and much cheaper.
When I said that amping can make headphones sound better, you claimed it to be a hi-fi myth. Your evidence? You and some other guy not finding any difference in one particular headphone.
You then tried to bolster your position using the very real phenomenon of many being influenced by brand-name and price, and many not actually being able to tell the difference in blind-tests. This is completely tangential to your original point, and the discussion. It would've been relevant had you tried to counter a claim that, for instance, no amp under $3000 is worth bothering with. But that isn't what the conversation is about.
I made the point about amping making headphones sound better. And yes...that'll often involve varying levels of distortion and colouring. It's no different than putting a pre-amp between a microphone and/or a guitar and the D.I connection of an audio interface. You might not like doing that; you might prefer nothing more than sufficient gain from an audio interface. That's your right. However, dismissing the experience of thousands of users, using thousands of amps on thousands of cans, is something that I think is up to you to provide evidence for (That'd take way more experimentation than you've provided, and perhaps an alternative lecture that actually addresses the original point).
The idea that all these headphone-enthusiasts would need to do to save thousands of dollars is to just try listening straight from their smartphones is, well...
I'm sticking by my first impression that a period of burn-in (to try and tame/open-up the highs), better fit/seal and amping would've made a big difference. It's doubtful it would've convinced LL away from a clear preference towards circumaurals, but he might've got a better impression of the iem experience, in general.
Anyway, it seems LL has found himself circling atop a very deep hole at headphones dot com. I'm sure he'll come to his own conclusions.
Thanks!
Not really hooked on "flat" marketing, but I would rather avoid having to always try to compensate for unnecessary hyping at various frequencies. And this is for work that's to take place long before the mixing stage.
For the moment i think that between the Apple earpods and the Kef iems I'll get a good idea of what's going on.