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Do you make it standard practice to use a limiter on new synth and effects plugins?
I'm thinking I'm going to make it standard practice after having problems with Caelum Audio's Tape Pro. On both iOS and desktop using Tape Pro as an Audio Unit I've had massive feedback or distortion problems which very nearly cost me a speaker or my hearing.
Bitter ear-ringing experience is teaching me to not trust any developer to properly implement safety measures for their audio software.
Do you automatically add a limiter before you trust the performance of your plugins?
Comments
No, sorry, I just haven't had an issue like that and putting a limiter on everything sounds a little extreme in that case.
Until I trust a developer, I'm going to start doing it. Toneboosters, never had any problems with them.
I used to put a hard clip at around 3 to 6 dB at the end of all my plugins. I've pulled that out now because it stops people from using them in settings where that kind o level is perfectly fine and sometimes useful in an effects chain. Using them in purposeful feedback routing settings for example. Using an effect to push hard into a compressor is another example. I now suggest that users always put a limiter before the output to headphones and monitors. This is especially good practice when you are using plugins with lots of resonance and/or feedback.
Personally, I have my monitors and headphone amp setup with an external passive volume control before them and listen at levels that are going to be safe even if the D-to-A from my audio interface hard clips.
You'll have to set the limiter pretty low so that if you do get that kind of runaway feedback or distortion it's not just as loud as before.
Set the limiter so that it shouldn't come on but then when it does, it comes in hard and clamps the volume. The extreme version would be a hard clip at the maximum level you want to go out. If you hear the limiter or hard clip, then something is wrong and you want to fix it anyway.
Which external passive volume control do you use.
I found this one.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Monitor1--behringer-monitor1-passive-stereo-monitor-and-volume-controller?mrkgadid=3251365585&mrkgcl=28&mrkgen=mpla&mrkgbflag=0&mrkgcat=studio&recording&acctid=21700000001645388&dskeywordid=92700046997884691&lid=92700046997884691&ds_s_kwgid=58700005286965298&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000007215323&ds_a_cid=405527921&ds_a_caid=9238738029&ds_a_agid=94108777819&ds_a_lid=pla-868723671096&dsproductgroupid=4582283429213619&product_id=Monitor1&prodctry=US&prodlang=EN&channel=Online&storeid=&device=c&network=s&matchtype=e&adpos=largenumber&locationid=&creative=&targetid=pla-4582283429213619&campaignid=283268301&awsearchcpc=1&msclkid=cb6666e11078104a5ba804f0a7cb8766&gclid=cb6666e11078104a5ba804f0a7cb8766&gclsrc=3p.ds
I have the Big Knob passive from Mackie
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BigKnobPass--mackie-big-knob-passive-2x2-studio-monitor-controller
I like it because it lets me select the input between two sources which I use for either two computers or my main dev machine and the iPad I'm testing on. It has output selection that I can send to either my monitors or my headphone amp. It's got mute, mono, and a dim controls. I need to add a stereo L/R flip switch to it, but I haven't done that yet. It works best with balanced sources. destinations, and cabling. It's simple and pretty cheap but it works well for me.
Thanks. I'll check it out.
Have you contacted the developer to report the issue?
Guess I could try again. ...Sigh...
Hmmm….Is this a common/known issue with this app?
Was on my list.
I’ve set my default channel levels in AUM to -6db to avoid nasty surprises…
…considering setting it even lower if the ‘everything needs to be at 0dbFS trend’ continues…
It’s impossible to play chords when the default presets are already at 0dbFS with ONE note and the synth app in itself lacks any kind of built in limiter. Synthmasters are soon off my iPad just HATE when delvelopers (or maybe it’s the sound-designers who have become deaf?) have not forgotten about the loudness wars…
Just because we can use 32/64 bit floats doesn’t mean everything should be 0dbFS from start and the first step is to reduce the output by more than 12db…
Cheers!
Having now got seemingly permanent ringing in one ear due to a feedback event (using a delay), I now use the Limiter app on my output bus by default. Choice of limiter app was basically because Dean from Electronisounds uses it, and I wasn’t sure if the built in limiter in AUM would do the job. If the AUM limiter would do, I guess it’d use less processing power, so if anyone could confirm that I’d be grateful.
I'm also careful not to monitor too loudly, particularly on headphones, as I don’t want things to get any worse.
I don’t tend to experience this, except on rare occasions when something crashes and starts screaming loudly. But just to be safe, I’m trying to get into the habit of applying the Amazing Noises limiter on my master buses when experimenting in AUM.
Morphit has a limiter.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/tb-morphit/id1487595036
Also fixes your headphones’ frequency curve.
You could also use it to flatten the monitor/room’s frequency curve at your sitting position, but you will need to copy the “compensation curve?” from another device/mic/software. 🤔
I honestly don’t know. There’s no user forum on the developer’s site and I’ve not seen anyone else bring up this issue here. Anyone else who uses Tape Pro… now’s your time to speak up if this has happened to you also.
What triggered the feedback?
Applied Tape Pro to a sampled instrument track (which was not playing at an extreme volume level by the way) and this massive popping sound nearly took my head off when I hit the play button. There was nothing unusual about the piece until Tape Pro was added. And this was in GarageBand, desktop version. I’ve had this identical problem with the iOS version, using Tape Pro as an AUv3 in iOS.
I only tried the free Tape Cassette and TC2 from this dev and experienced similar audio spikes, which in some cases shut down iOS audio engine, requiring host restart or reboot to recover.
Deleted those and haven’t used anything else from them - problem solved.
I wouldn’t recommend limiters on individual tracks, however sometimes I do use comp + lim on master while in creative stage.
Thank you for confirming this problem.
Paging @CaelumAudio - Are these issues known to you?
If it were a large pop and then the channel was dead until you removed it, deleted the plugin, or restarted the App, then that would likely be caused by a floating point error. That could be caused by a sample value that the plugin didn't handle well. Could also be cause by an algorithmic error in a plugin that doesn't usually get triggered.
Software has bugs. In audio software, bugs can make loud noises. Even without bugs, moving an EQ in one plugin can trigger an effect in a plugin down-chain that makes things get very loud. That's why I suggest always having a hard limiter of some sort on your monitor outs. It's also why I prefer Reaper, Ardour, and Mixbus on my Mac. The single feature of having a monitor channel with effects slots that don't change the main mix is really useful.
What do you mean by hard limiter? Aren't there still peaks that can break through? I thought that was the reason by the existence of auto-mute apps such as Cerberus Audio's Ice9. Anything like that on iOS?
On a hard limiter, nothing exceeds the maximum the limiter is set to. That is what makes it a hard limiter.
Any sort of hard clamp. The simplest and most efficient is a straight clip above a set dB level. You don't ever actually want to hear this anyway, so it doesn't matter if it sounds bad. Actually, it's better if it does sound bad. I have one I've written for myself that I use when doing development of new algorithms. I'd release it, but it would never make it through the App Store review process.
Thanks! But even with a hard-limiter I thought various kinds of noise-bursts i.e Way above 'expected' audio levels could still make it through. Perhaps I've just misunderstood.
Are you saying any limiter would do the job?
Thanks! What would you recommend for those of us who can't code our own stuff?
Not every limiter/compressor would work. You are right that peaks can get through on limiters because of the way the envelope tracking comes in. In AUM there is a hard clip node that clips at 0 dB. This could be useful but I like to be able to set the level I want to clamp at.
Note that your audio interface does have a level it's going to clip at too. That's why I also suggested the external volume control path above.
Yeah! Ice9 allows the user to set the threshold/barrier level. Not even sure that's being developed any more.
As for your other suggestions: (Un)fortunately, most of the time I'm going to be operating with nothing but the iPad and headphones. And though AUM use is definitely on the cards, that leaves issues with other DAW
Looks like there's a space for an interested developer to jump in...assuming it is doable?
In the case of Apple, they need to look into making an adjustable hard limiter their default on every new track in GarageBand. That would solve one big gap.