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Comments
You said earlier that you're not an iOS developer. Yet you appear to claim to have received good developer support? (If you read the posts earlier, they clearly make the distinction that they're talking specifically about developer support.)
And ... you're implying that highly regarded developers such as Bram Bos, Elf Audio, Imaginando, and others who regularly vent about app approval and other issues are the problem and Apple has no part in it?
You really seem to think of yourself as some kind of expert on this subject. I've not seen any evidence to support that. As for your "life is hard, deal with it" patronizing - that's very easy for someone to say who has no skin in the game.
OK, I'm done. I know this is a useless post. I'll leave you be now.
The customer experience is different from the developer experience. If you read through the archives here, you will see many comments from developers about the almost ludicrously poor communication...particularly where the App Store is concerned. There are lots of tales told by developers here. You don't have to take my word for it.
Ditto. This is the 3rd "rug from under my feet" this year that's going to damage the little income that I make from iOS development. And, not sure if this has been mentioned...
What about free apps? We have to update those too, like... err, for free?
And... iOS "life may be hard" but it ins't the only game in town for music software developers. I think this latest, and many other so called "improvements" are going to drive developers away from the platform. Especially "one man band" developers, and in many cases, that means music app developers.
Apple's stance on music making and iOS seems to be increasingly "GarageBand or go home". The AU SDK (could you even call it that?) is still (imho) a half-baked mess, and I strongly suspect the reason for this is that the Apple engineer(s) who championed 3rd-party AU development is / are no longer there.
Anyway... rant over.
I'm over it already.
It won't be long that Apple will have to give the choice for developers to sell outside their store as well, just like they allow for MacOS. EU law is pending https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/25/eu-provisionally-agrees-dma-law-apple-app-store/
I think it's just a matter of time.
This choice will help independent developers and users alike.
One good thing I learned after reading the App store improvement document is that it's against Apple rules to switch an app to subscription without letting previous owners keep the full unlock. That's good to know
But the parts about keeping updating apps regularly by adding new content just isn't nuanced enough to allow for different types of finished apps and artworks to exist, and this is another reason why App stores do not work for all types of software. A much better ecosystem can exist when users can be allowed to sideload apps without jailbreaking.
Most developers won't need to sell outside the store but Apple are pushing to shape their platform more like streaming service based content, that's fine as long as they give developers who don't work like this the choice to opt out.
A bad coincidence happened to me yesterday in illustrating why this is necessary: my appstore app on ipad crashed on opening even after reboot, reset, signing in and out of the store etc and a fruitless interaction with Apple support.
Ironic that in the document it also says that any app which will crash on load will be automatically removed. So that means your app store app should also be removed Apple
Yes, let's make this all about me instead of the issue at hand, right? Kill the messenger? Is that your aim?
Out of curiosity, what has been your experience regarding getting hold of help from technical people at Apple? And is it your view that there is some kind of anti-developer sentiment at Apple?
That will hopefully push all the IAA apps developers to move AU way.
I think @NeonSilicon mentioned this earlier and can only add my experience has been exactly the same. You're allowed a certain amount of support tickets as part of your developer membership. Responses I've received range from copy and paste boiler plate responses, to things along the lines of "yeah... we know. sorry, but that's how it is".
If the question was have they helped solve any specific problems I've had, then the answer would be, over the last 6 years, no, not really.
My personal view is not that there is any anti-developer sentiment at Apple. However, I suspect, and I must stress that this in only an impression I get...
What we consider to be top priority things for making cool music apps is not top priority for Apple. I also get the impression that it might be the case that engineers at Apple get just as frustrated as we do about priorities. And I stress, this is only my impression.
Sorry to say it, but I reckon the iOS emoji creation team probably outnumbers the audio team by a factor of 10.
And when was the last time there was a decent WWDC presentation on audio, let alone AU? For whatever reason, I just don't think they're that interested. I rest my case.
Your experience is your experience, so I thank you for providing that bit of insight.
So might you agree that the problem at Apple is a matter of focus and not a matter of resources? Or perhaps it’s both, with regard to music app support?
@NeuM: I think you have miscontrued the remarks that I have made.
Apple does not have an ANTI developer attitude. I never meant to imply that they are actively antagonistic to developers. The problem is that they are essentially insensitive to the needs and morale of developers. There is a difference between being antagonistic -- and being insensitive.
I have worked inside Apple and outside Apple (mostly outside) and have friends that work in both technical and non-technical departments at all.
The thing is that Apple seems not to think about how their decisions impact developer experience. There was a time (long ago now) when Apple was more aware of how things affected developers (including little developers -- which is most of them) and they seemed to at least go through the motions of boosting developer morale. Over time, they increasingly took developer enthusiasm for granted.
They have a lot of mechanisms in place that make things harder and more time-consuming for external developers than needs be.
When Apple got so big and profitable, a culture shift came with it.
There has been a decline over the years of developer enthusiasm as a result. A lot of concerns were raised early on in the App Store era by developers (lack of demo version, pay once get updates forever) and they still have done nothing to address those issues. And it is harder for non-big-hits to turn a profit than it used to be.
Outside of the executive team's "all developers are thieves" posturing to try and justify the App Store, I don't think there is anti-developer sentiment at Apple. It is important to note that the developer support team and the App Store review teams don't have any overlap. They are run by different divisions. The issues that I have with the developer support people are that they almost completely abandoned any thought of documenting anything. They used to be very good in this regard. Now, they do the standard automated extraction of docs from the headers that most of the industry does. It sucks. They can't even be bothered to toss in a couple of state transition or timing diagrams for libraries where this info is crucial. Apple has always been bad a bug reporting and tracking. It comes out of their weird need to keep everything secret even when it works against them. But, this is a known thing with them and they have always been this way. I think it hurts them in a lot of business like settings, but it isn't anti-developer.
On the App Store side of things, they don't have enough people. They don't train those they have well enough and they don't provide them with the tools to do their jobs. My impression is that the App Store is simply badly managed in every respect. On top of that, it's probably an impossible job to do.
@NeuM - I think I've answered that question already. It's about priorities, or focus if you like.
Just for fun, if you haven't looked already, take a look at this page:
https://www.apple.com/uk/ipados/ipados-15/
Where do you think the "music creation" user profile sits in terms of priorities? It's not even mentioned on that page as far as I can tell.
That's why the supposed "template" for developing an AU is based off an old WWDC "filter demo" from was it iOS 9 or 10? Can't remember now.
The professional arguer(s) here is/are wearisome. Always the same no matter the topic.
They ruin the forum and should be booted
So says the person who has been here less than a month. LOL.
Is it true that most iOS app and device users are "consumers" of music, movies and information, rather than "creators"? Probably. Might that be the reason for Apple's marketing choices here? Probably.
But what about GarageBand's landing page? It's a bit more focused.
https://www.apple.com/ios/garageband/
And here's the thing... people here keep insisting it is difficult, if not impossible for music/synth/plugin developers to make a living with their software offerings because the demand is too small.
Well, if that's the case, then that's probably the reason why Apple doesn't pay a lot of attention or commit resources to this area, isn't it?
Apple is the most profitable company on the planet. They focus on things which make them money. All businesses have to do this. If developers want more attention in the company, they have to create "hits". Hits get Apple's resources and attention.
One of Apple's biggest areas of focus and commitment right now are with AR (augmented reality). Are there any music-related AR titles? If there aren't, I'd start doing something there. That's a gigantic untapped market. And I'll bet Apple would even be open to the idea of committing money to any developer willing to invest their development time in this area. Put together a proposal. Show them what you've done previously and what you have in mind, in broad strokes... but be prepared to move fast because opportunities are meant to be exploited.
https://developer.apple.com/entrepreneur-camp/
https://developer.apple.com/app-store/small-business-program/
Apple still being a viable company today depended on its relationship with creatives and how that played out in the perception of Apple products in the general consumer market. Apple very much leans on the perception of their devices as prosumer aimed at creative tasks.
No. The demand isn't too small. The demand is much greater than it is on macOS -- much bigger! The profitability issues are centered around how the App Store is structured and the issues this gives developers when trying to make money off their work.
Imagine how useless it would be to try and be Oracle or IBM's DB2 if you were restricted to selling on the iOS App Store with its structure and limitations.
I don't think places like NI or Waves need Apple's guidance on how to make a profit. I think they stay away from iOS because they do know how to make a profit.
Regarding AR, it's an interesting upcoming tech. It's not there yet though. Interesting point is that as far as content creation goes for AR/VR and spatial audio, Apple is targeting macOS and not iOS. Maybe part of that is that you can't even run tools like Blender, Unreal, and Unity on an Pad.
This is asinine. Apple is one of the few companies who can take your money then delete what you bought because Apple feels it’s outdated and we lose our money and ability to use the app then we are supposed to be okay with 🤦♂️
They are taking the fun out this.
There is no question that factors like a lack of developer support, rules that pigeon hole developers into update and deprecation schedules, along with potentially the worst value propositions a platform can offer from a money making perspective - likely make up an equal parts cocktail called 'oh, we gotta jump ship on iOS'.
This is going to be unpopular, but I am very happy to a pay a little more for apps, have IAP for updates and new features, or even for a yearly model. That is especially the case if that means my favourite devs keep building, iterating, updating and ultimately barraging Apple with grievances for future consideration.
I just wanted to take a moment to thank any devs who are building apps, plugins, and music making tools for us. I know that even for larger dev houses iOS is a passion project, and it really f***ing makes my life a better place. To some of us in the community your hard work is seen, heard, and experienced.
Things don't always change for the better, and I hope for the sake of a pretty rad platform there is enough incentive to keep going.
Doesn’t this speak to the overall state of the arts?
Many schools have dropped art programs and even for most big audio companies it’s still a labor of love. It’s amazing how much music has shaped who “successful Apple” is, but how much they shortchange it.
Where would Apple be without the iPod putting “1,000 songs in your pocket”?
Pardon me for asking, but how have they taken anything away from you? This looks like a reaction to what is being said here, not having anything to do with what has happened in reality.
That's a misunderstanding. The discussion isn't about removing apps from those who have purchased them. It's about making it so that developers can no longer sell more copies.
It can result in users losing apps if the developer decides to remove the apps altogether or to stop paying their yearly developer fee. But that's only a potential indirect effect.
Can't argue there. Especially for developers.
It's actually the last nail in the coffin of my intention to develop iOS apps. I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro that I justified purchasing to do just that. It's by far not the only reason I've given up, but this kind of treatment of developers has sealed the deal.
Hi, this is not clear to me…could anyone confirm if I will be able to download on the AppStore the apps erased on my IPad but that I bought previously?
You should be able to. The policy would only remove the app for new sales. The section from the Apple doc is
There is some potential that this may end up with some apps completely removed though. If the removal of the app from sale triggers the developer to stop paying the annual fee to Apple, then the app will be completely removed from the store. I can see this happening in cases where all of the dev's apps get pulled as revenue sources and they decide to leave the App Store as a result. If the dev has several apps that are in current development, I would doubt that this would happen.
This action by Apple is aimed at developers and not the App Store customers.
Don't give up just yet. The iPad is still a fun platform to develop for. Apple definitely strains the relationships with devs, but the iPad itself is unique and interesting. My interactions with the users of my software on iOS have been really positive --- the same thing is true for years worth of interactions with audio/music oriented users on the Mac.
It is very likely that we are going to see a shift in the dynamic soon, even if Apple doesn't like it. I'm still holding out hope that we get a platform that's as fun to develop for as the Mac but has all of the new potential of the iPad.
Definitely a reaction 🙃
I thought the question was relevant as it seemed that one of the criticism was the forcing of improvements on apps that didn't need improving. That's separate to considerations of profit-margins and/or the possibility of introducing new issues.
As to the the question of revenue? I've already addressed that here and in other posts - I believe the whole pricing and update structure is broken; at least, within our particular part of the market. And that's something that needs to be sorted out between developers and consumers. Either way, I'm not sure that Apple should be blamed for various developers feeling the amount of money they're earning doesn't make the extra work worthwhile.
I also don't think I've mentioned anything about just simply dropping code into an app, expecting it to work. If I did, then I apologise.
"I can imagine the 30 minute meeting at Apple. Some exec gets a bug up their ass about the clutter in the App Store - or maybe was playing golf with someone who read what Google is doing. They froth at the mouth to the App Store VP and, snap, the decision is made. That VP leaves the meeting and says "make it so", and some out of touch lower level communication person fires off some emails."
That's the thing about imagination
...The counter to that being that I'm not sure I've seen an app being discussed on this forum that isn't followed by at least a few suggestions for improvement.
I have definitely lost access to apps that I paid for. The apps were completely removed from the App Store. It was one of those situations where I deleted the apps to make space on my previous iPad and then when I got my new iPad the apps were not available for download 😞
Wim's answer pointed out that it doesn't matter if any particular app can be improved. The question is can every app be improved in a financially viable way. Given that Apple's App Store policies make it difficult to gain new revenue from updating your app, the answer is no. Unless you want every AU you use to end up as a subscription, the answer is always going to be no.
There's nothing wrong with people asking for features they want in an app, but those features aren't always going to be an actual improvement to the app. Often, they would actually degrade the performance of the app. Feature creep is one of the biggest issues in any area of software dev. So, people wanting features doesn't mean the app can be improved.
I just took a look through the AU's I have installed on my iPad. I would be perfectly happy if none of them ever had an update. AUM can stay exactly the way it is and I'll be happy with it. There is one feature I'd like it to have and I've mentioned it on the forum before. But, I'm also aware that it would be a very deep change to the architecture and most of AUM's users wouldn't care about the change. They might actually really dislike the feature because it would make the workflow more complex.