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Yamaha THR / Vox Adio air / Blackstar ID Core - quality vs iOS amp sims (Nembrini)
Hi!
I’ve wanting one of these portable amp simulators for a while. It would serve as a Bluetooth speaker (lates THRii has Bluetooth) and, obviously, a guitar amp. I’ve been playing guitar with iOS amp sims, mainly Nembrini, going through my monitors. Sounds great but I miss the feeling of a guitar amp. Also I don’t want to need plug my iPad, power the mixer, bla bla just to fiddle around with the guitar.
So the question is. How good are these?. Are they comparable to what you get with a Nembrini amp?. If I get one I’d like to record with it, shame they don’t have dedicated outs but i’d use the headphone out into the mixer.
What worries me is if these amps are not as “pro” sounding and respond to playing as well as a Nembrini amp sim. I have a Line6 Pod XT, the Voicelive3 and a Zoom G1on and none of these are close to what you get with a Nembrini.
I did search in the forum and saw some references but I wonder if any on you are using it and can comment specifically on how they compare to a good iOS amp sim.
Thanks!
Comments
Then you need a guitar amp. I would buy a decent one or stick to Nembrini.
These products aren’t very good. I’d take a Roland cube over any of them, hell even my Pignose!
I've got a THR10C. It sounds really great, but tones I get out of the BST100 are better, more "articulated".
Hardware is increasingly software based so unless it is regularly updated by the manufacturer quality software will be always one step ahead. One thing to look out is the A/D converters and latency. If you’re using a decent interface with good preamps and have enough processing power software will top.
Although there’s something to be said re just plugging your sound source into a one solid unit as opposed to several boxes hanging together by a wire!
In this particular use case, I think an actual amp would serve you better. Something like a 5W Bugera V5, which is a tube amp you can play at neighbour-friendly volumes (it has a built-in attenuator). It will sound and feel a million times better:
I have some little tube amps (Mooer BM, Palmer Eins) and a Joyo Jackman (great little amp). Also a big 30 watt Marshall tube amp. And a Vox Pathfinder 15, Yamaha THR5, and Blackstar Fly 3 (nice small practice amp).
Sometimes I play them, but I don´t like playing with no other instruments like drum, bass, or guitar chords. Just playing some notes or chords without some kind of framework or reference is a bit boring for me, I fall back to the same noodling and licks.
So for me that is the real advantage of an Ipad, I can load up a drummer, bass player, guitar looper, backing track, learning app, scaler app, whatever. All in one device. I have to say on headphone my Ipad sounds better than other amps with a headphone. Amp in the room is always something special. But THU rigs and Nembrini sounds really good on my headphone or small speakers.
These little amps are interesting, there’s also the Supra ones that look great. But they’re not cheap. Im considering these digital ones for:
Seems like there’s not a big fan base for these units here. I know they’re digital and I agree with @BroCoast and. @Gratouilli, these are software based after all… But there’s the physical aspect of having the unit with knobs. If the sound of these was “almost” as good as a Nembrini it’d be enough to justify my GAS.
This is actually a good point. Am I being plain stupid?. Maybe you just pointed out something very obvious. If I’m not playing along with other human beings, does a dedicated amp make sense?. The extra irony comes from the fact that these amps don’t have a line out (only the bigger and rather pricey 30w THR does), so to record I’d have to use the headphone out f the amp into my mixer…. So no “amp in the room” anymore.
So I guess it comes down to a) stupid GAS b) portability and Bluetooth
I can’t justify (a) but for (b) there’s the Bluetooth thing where it’d double up as a sound system. If I get one second hand it’s not a lot more than a decent Bluetooth speaker. And I’d have the possibility of going outside on a starry night in the country house and play my CGB guitar while smoking a cigar. That’d be priceless… and that’s how you fool yourself into GAS. I could use this as an interface for the iPad to play outside… hmmmm
For me it’s speakers vs headphones.
A good powered speaker is handy and usually has a aux channel which could be the iPhone/iPad
With those extra function apps. A guitar amp isn’t a clean speaker by design… they have multiple mid-range drivers and no tweeters or attention to bass.
So, I’d consider the IOS device for amp sim, backing band and get a good powered speaker for your PA system. Roland Cubes come to mind… they even have battery backed units for street gigs.
One local busker uses a car battery with an inverter to power his set up.
For home joy a 5W quality amp is heaven… it might also have an aux channel for the backing apps.
Bluetooth audio latency is a no go for most guitar players. Playing in your own channel with Bluetooth backing tracks is OK… it’s that pick to note latency that kills most Bluetooth solutions. There’s a mode
Of Bluetooth called AptX that gets closer but Apple doesn’t support it. I would expect the Beats division of Apple would lobby for AptX to sell more overpriced headphones to musicians but they do fine selling them to the audience of recorded material.
I have a Yamaha THR10C. I like it quite a bit, just plug in and play. As an amp it sounds good, not amazing, but surprisingly good. I also use it as full range flat response stereo speakers for plugging in my pedal board. The speakers are excellent, the sound easily fills the room.
I have owned all three, and there's no doubt the Yamaha sounds and feels much better than both the PodXT and especially the TC Voicelive3 (which I think sounds bad and feels even worse).
I wish the THR10C had 1/4" inputs (for aux), and usb recording is a little noisy, not terrible, but it could have been better. The effects are nice enough except the delay, which is poor.
That's what I would say about it- the Yamaha is certainly good, but with a few adjustments it could have been excellent.
I have a THR-10ii wireless and this summer it’s been my number one bit of kit (after my guitar). I originally bought it as a way of having some playing time not spent constantly going down iOS wormholes, but over time my desire to interconnect has won over and now I’m exploiting all it can do.
Now I use it as a straight guitar amp with backing tracks / drums from my phone over Bluetooth, but also as an audio interface, using the built-in guitar processing into iOS. Further to that I’ve been using it with an external interface going into the aux (so I can have mic input as well) with iPad/phone and Nembrini / Thu for guitar as part of a Loopy loopstation. I don’t have a particularly qualitative assessment to make regarding built-in amp v Nembrini tone, what I can say is each of the scenarios above has been giving me a great deal of satisfaction.
Was it GAS originally? Probably partly. Has it proved a justified acquisition? Absolutely. The only negative I have is it’s not as loud on battery as mains, but I understand why. Also the line 6 Gt10 wireless guitar plug is a clusterf**k of bad design decisions and you’d be better off with a 3rd party transmitter / receiver combo (or a cable of course).
Bluetooth speaker - great, outside guitar and cigar moments - unbeatable
Well for such use, any small amp will be sufficient. Extra options as stereo audio input (line or bluetooth) are nice. Plug in or connect your Ipad and play with backing tracks and other stuff. Connect your guitar with a cable.
I had this idea with my (digital) Yamaha THR5, and there is one little problem. I want to use it without power chord, but this amp eats normal batteries, aprox 8 hours. And rechargeable batteries are empty even faster, 5 hours. This will kill your motivation, when you grab your amp and you have to change batteries first. Or it runs flat while you play.
I also have a (analog) Blackstar Fly3, and this little amp runs very long on batteries (if I don´t forget to shut it off). Takes line in for music playing too and has an extension cabinet for stereo music playing. Sound really good, has a nice direct feel when I play.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/blackstar_fly_3_mini_amp_bk.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6NCwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjJ9&reload=1
I don´t know of the new THR´s have rechargeable accu or battery packs inside for longer operation time?
Here’s some THR/iOS rig pics. Although it admittedly diminishes the form of the amp, I found an ideal iPhone mount, a MagSafe one by Peterong, expensive at £25, but really good foldable design. The Yamaha THR app lets you choose to record the dry signal, so you could use an iOS amp sim if you preferred. I like using the Yamaha amp sound for direct monitoring purposes.
Later pictures are with a Go Twin interface into the AUX for when I want to have both mic and guitar (still with CCK as I’ve found the lightning Mfi cable connection to be very unreliable). This obviously bypasses any in-built amp sound, so the THR is just functioning as a speaker, all processing in iOS.
…and then I got a bit carried away… with a giant mount for iPad or 11” MacBook Air. Involves a go pro clamp and, crucially, a wine cork, but does the job
Also using one of these very cheap (£30) m-vave chocolat Bluetooth midi foot switches to toggle the THR effects on and off in the THR remote app.
The Xsonic Airstep YT (bespoke) and Airstep Lite and Full (midi configurable) can toggle effects direct without needing the app to be running (so no device needed), but they’re a lot more money and I figure I’ll pretty much always have a device at hand.
@steve99
That is a nice setup! I'm inspired to do something similar.
I think the amp’s designer would cry if he/she/they saw the Frankenstein’s monster I was creating, but it’s far more elegant and rugged than most of my previous ‘garden ready’ attempts.
Very nice, I agree!.
The thing with the Yamaha is that it’s a beautiful object. The design, metal casing, the handle… to use as a Bluetooth speaker on your living room it looks so much better.
Are the 20W enough for an outside “small party” kind of thing?. The Vox Adio has 50W…
I’ve been thinking/obsessing over this. Ultimately I think I have to be realistic and not expect everything.
These units tick the boxes as Bluetooth speakers, portable, fun amp to.
Are they good enough for recording?. Maybe… but it’d dodgy doing so with the headphone output (probably change in sound). On the “recording” side of things I’ve been checking out some new cheap units like Nux Mg30 with apparently great amp sims. Probably better sounding and more apt for recording, And this “drift” made me realize that no matter what you buy digital will be obsolete in a short time, something new will come up that sounds better and more realistic. I should skip the recording part of it and just use the Nembrinis for “serious” stuff. We can agree that iOS amp sims are going to be more updated and really cheap.
If using the Model12 as a multi-track tape machine (no iPad) I could record dry (w distortions pedals and whatever comes before the amp) and wet (headphone out from THR or Adio), and if I want to work on it I’ll use a Nembrini and “reamp” or work on a iOS daw. I do wish these units had a line out.
I also want to try taking the amp to natural spaces with “natural reverbs” and record with the iPad. Empty rooms or hallways, or just outside playing the mike far away.
I’m confused!. Thanks for bearing.
In short,
Look at this if you like, THR recording with a microphone. His tone could be something different than your preferred tone, but anyway, it can be done
How about the strymon iridium? Would that compare to Nembrini and TH-U?
Seeing its evolution in progress was quite the site to behold. I can't wait until it achieves mobility, and grows a treaded base so it can follow you around.
From what I’m reading in forums, YouTube videos, etc, there’s many good options right now. I owned a Helix that I sold and I’m seeing that there’s a lot of cheaper options if you don’t need all the extras. As I mentioned before I’ve been reading really good stuff about Nux products, very cheap too. But here’s the thing with these devices, where the Nux mg300 was amazing, now comes the mg30 that’s amazing 200% and a lot better response bla bla. I guess the same will happen to all digital hardware boxes. The mg30 has 2 processors instead of one, so provides a lot more dynamic range, more resolution IRs, etc… An iPad has a lot more processing power than any of those units. So even if these units are comparable today a 15€ amp sim Nembrini 2 years from now will probably sound better than any of these current devices.
I’m this research I’ve come accross with the Nux Mighty Air. Tiny, battery operated and sounds great to me. Wish I could check one out “live” and just see if it’s loud enough. This video sold me.
Seems like there’s more control, for example you can choose IRs (Not sure if you can upload custom ones as with the mg300, apparently they use the same modeling)
.
Searching around (like a lost madman) I found this video comparing the Nux Mg300 which has the same algorithm as the Might Air amp above, to the old, cheap, plastic Zoom G1on.
I already own the Zoom G1on, actually it’s the bass one but a forum member pointed me to a firmware hack to load the guitar stuff, anyway, I made myself believe it was shit. “It’s too old, it’s only 60€, it’s plastic, it’s zoom, it can’t be any good”. Compared to the VoiceLive3 amp sims, the Zoom was 100000 better but I was sure I needed an update. So here I am looking to update but after watching this video…. I’m doubting the Nux is any improvement!. Go figure.
The reverb is certainly a lot nicer on the Nux, but I don’t find the amps to be a lot better. I like some on the Nux, some on the Zoom… Not enough to justify the purchase.
This has reinforced my feeling that iOS amps are going to be better, maybe on par now but surely better in the long run as new apps come out. So I shouldn’t obsess about the recording quality, focus on the portability, etc. The Nux Mighty Air has 18h of battery life and includes a wireless guitar thingy, so it’s become a strong contender. But it’s ugly and maybe not loud enough… I’ll end up flipping a coin .
I saw today Boss just released a new mobile Cube model:
https://www.boss.info/global/products/dual_cube_lx/
I don't know if it's good but it is interesting.
Ultra-portable stereo guitar amplifier with professional sound and features
Two custom-designed 4-inch speakers
10-watt stereo power amp (5 watts x 2)
Eight newly developed guitar amp types plus one mic preamp type
Seven onboard effects with deep editing via the DUAL CUBE LX Editor app
Stereo input mode with wide, immersive sound for modelers and stereo pedals
Three-band equalizer
Store amp and effects settings in 27 memories (3 memories for each amp type)
Powered via AC adaptor (included) or eight AA batteries
Stereo line output with mic’d cab emulation
Phones/Rec jack with support for an inline headphones microphone
USB audio for direct recording and livestreaming
Control jack for up to two external footswitches
i-CUBE Link/Aux In jack for audio playback
Selectable Loopback function for USB and i-CUBE Link/Aux In
Onboard looper (requires optional footswitch)
Connector for optional Bluetooth® Audio MIDI Dual Adaptor (BT-DUAL)
I bought a lot of things for my guitar the last 10 years. I have owned a ton of small amps and effects.
The 2 best small amps I owned was the Yamaha THR and the Blackstar TVP 15. One of the good thing about the THR is that the headphone output sounds really good to practice. I bought a really good VOX VT20X but the headphone output was really really bad.
The best multi-effects that you can buy it's probably the high end of Line-6 but for the small price, the Zoom G1Four is hard to beat.
But nothing of this sounds better and is more flexible than my iPad + my MOTU M2 with a couple of apps in AUM.
It's obviouly only my humble opinion. If you have any question let me know.
I can confirm this, I have Zoom G1fourX, and Ipad with AUM and Nembrini sounds way better when it comes to amp simulation.
With the Zoom you have to audit all the amp models and cabinets and reverb to find a combination that is above the standard sound quality, and with (for example) extra EQ effect, or an exciter effect you can make it better, but my experience is that it takes a lot of time and practice to get there. And with Ipad I just instantly turn some knobs and it is pretty good already.
I still use the Zoom, it is connected to my multitrack recorder, the interface with the knobs and the screen is pretty good.
With my MOTU M2 I have almost 0 latency and the headphone output is unbeatable at that price range.
Certainly very interesting. Looks great.
Not available yet but looks like it’s gonna be 300€.
Pros:
it’s got a line out. Only the bigger THR has one, handy for recording.
Looks great, for factor is perfect. Has a handle!
4 inch speakers vs 3 inch on the THR and Vox Adio.
Cons:
No integrated Bluetooth. The Bluetooth accesory is 50€!. I find that a bit obscene.
No rechargeable battery.
Only 10 watts
So for 350€ (amp + Bluetooth) you’re in the Wireless THRii territory. Hakf the watts, no battery but you get a line out.
I agree and mentioned before that I’ve settled on iOS amps (Nembrini) offering the best sound and are best for recording and laying down a song.
Thing is I bought the Tascam Model12 and it’s got the multitrack recorder. I’m liking the idea of playing and recording without any screens. Went from no keyboard/mousse to iPad and now want to try the no-screen/dawless experience. But I can record dry and wet to the Tascam. Use my Zoom G1on as wet to monitor and get the feeling (good enough for that) and then I can add the amp later with the dry track to the iPad Nembrini. So I don’t really need a high-end modeler for recording and I can always just plug in the iPad. It’s another topic but the Model12 is really cool in how it manages track routing. You can output from the iPad and record to the multitrack or viceversa, and this is just a switch per-track.
I do want an amp because I have GAS. Also because I have a nice hipster beard, and a battery operated speaker on the park might just make a successful influencer. I’ll need a Go-pro for that…. Damn!
Btw does the Zoom G1four sound a lot better than the G1on?. Just curious.
The amps sim and cabinets are better. Not "a lot", but better. And if I remember correctly there is a couple of great reverbs and delays that you will only find on the G1Four.