Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.
What is Loopy Pro? — Loopy Pro is a powerful, flexible, and intuitive live looper, sampler, clip launcher and DAW for iPhone and iPad. At its core, it allows you to record and layer sounds in real-time to create complex musical arrangements. But it doesn’t stop there—Loopy Pro offers advanced tools to customize your workflow, build dynamic performance setups, and create a seamless connection between instruments, effects, and external gear.
Use it for live looping, sequencing, arranging, mixing, and much more. Whether you're a live performer, a producer, or just experimenting with sound, Loopy Pro helps you take control of your creative process.
Download on the App StoreLoopy Pro is your all-in-one musical toolkit. Try it for free today.
How Do You Define “Subscription?”
Moving this to a new thread so that a) certain users don’t feel singled out and b) I can hone in on a specific part of the conversation.
In response to Serif ending support for Affinity v1 and offering a paid update to v2, I’ve seen some people insist that they are, in fact, offering a “hidden subscription.” And I’m interested to know people’s thoughts on the matter, independently of specific cost concerns. What constitutes a software subscription?
Quick context to get the discussion started: Serif sold a piece of software for a one-time fee. For as long as that software was on sale, they provided support and security/stability updates, and as a bonus, they offered feature upgrades to entice new users and keep existing users interested. Yesterday they released v2 and ended ongoing support for v1.
My take is this: when you buy a piece of software for a one-time fee, you are buying a product. You get that software as-is and have a reasonable expectation of warranty services for as long as specified, or if not specified, as long as the software is available to purchase. After that period ends, you can continue using the software in its current state — the bad part of the deal is that eventually, you may have to freeze updates on your hardware and pull it off of the internet. As with physical products, a lifetime warranty is never implied and if one is offered, you need to ask whose lifetime (yours, the developer’s, the product’s).
When you pay for a subscription, you enjoy a lower entry fee and access to the full feature set, as well as all improvements made to the software for as long as you’re subscribed. The upsides are that you know exactly how much that software will cost month-to month, you can expect a more defined product roadmap, and support should be better; the downside is that, no matter how much you spend over the lifetime of your subscription, once you stop paying you lose access to everything.
Here’s another thought: when you buy an iPad, you go into it knowing that eventually it will stop receiving security updates and you’ll need to either buy an upgrade or pull it off the internet. You can keep the product, but it won’t always keep up with the world. Would you class that as a subscription? If not, how is it any different from buying a software upgrade?
Keep it civil. Not looking to argue over what is, essentially, low-stakes semantics; I’m asking because I’m genuinely curious.
Comments
What I found online defining subscription.
the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.
"the newsletter is available only on subscription"
What I found online defining monthly subscription:
In a monthly subscription, a customer enters into an agreement with a business where they pay a recurring monthly fee in exchange for products or services. This might involve a monthly box of physical products, a monthly membership, or access to gated content that renews on a monthly basis.
If that's been communucated clearly to the customer, then there's no problem.
However in the case of the other thread, they guarantee that I can "simply continue using the version you have", and their staff today are still confirming that "if you wish, you can continue to use the original apps for as long as you like."
That is only possible if they provide bug fixes and security updates for new Mac, Windows and iOS versions.
I haven't bought a cheese grater. It's a piece of software that needs to work with the operating system it's installed on, and to keep my computer secure, that needs to be maintained so I can keep everything updated.
Don't promise what you're not providing, and then there's no confusion.
In the case of Affinity Designer, initial release date: October 1, 2014. It’s been a one-time fee since 2014. 8 years later, V2 is a one-time fee. 🤷🏽
I define it as “This product is not for you.”
We can all cherry pick.
In the case of Affinity Publisher, it's been out for three years, and as has been stated countless times, not everyone bought their products on the dates of release.
I think you gave a fair description of the two ends of the spectrum - pure one-off and pure subscription. In real life though, it's increasingly somewhere between the two. Loopy Pro, for instance, is a typical "hybrid" in my eyes.
IMHO expecting forever bugfixes without an active subscription is unrealistic on any platform, and especially on iOS where the prices are relatively peanuts to start with. I know some devs do offer this, like @Michael with LP even if you don't update, but I remember telling him back then that I didn't think it was realistic in the long run. I still don't, but so far he's winning obvs. 🙂👍
I think it's quite fair to pay for really major updates.
But when the new version is initially worse than the previous version it rubs me in the wrong direction.
Over the years we've had examples of new versions popping up before the bugs in the previous versions were fixed.
Not mentioning any companies but we all know by now which ones we're are on the list...
@ervin my thought exactly
I feel like some users feel like the Affinity play is a lack of customer loyalty since new users and current users receive the same “deal”.
I can definitely see how this irritates current customers.
I have being using Affinity since day one and it doesn’t irritate me personally because I have gotten more out of Affinity with clients paying me than Serif charged me.
Well, that part I can understand, too. I admit I usually don't like it when some grubby newcomer gets the same price as I, long-time faithful customer do (looking at you, Izotope). 🥴 But your way of looking at things in absolute rather than relative terms is much healthier.
No-one's asking for 'forever bugfixes', but switching support off for all of your products overnight without an adjustment period and upgrade path isn't the way to do things.
This summer I recommended (as I have been for years) software to staff in an organisation I've worked with. They purchased a number of desktop copies of Photo, and I'm guessing copies of Publisher too.
Just a few months later, they are now in proud posession of abandonware.
Do you think they'll buy again from this company? Do you think they're saying nice things about that company to others?
There may be a misunderstanding here. I wasn't referring to you, mate, I'm sorry. OTOH, don't say "noone's asking for forever bugfixes" - it's a generalisation that is incorrect almost by default. I mean, we even had conversations here on the forum earlier where some people explicitly said that they wanted this. I've also worked in the software industry where some of my customers had the same expectation. These are the things my comment is based on. 🤷
Understandable frustration. Seems like Serif could offer vouchers to the org you helped. Did they try reaching out to Serif? I know some more recent users received free upgrade offers in their email.
Not on the thread I’m referring to, unless I missed it. To be honest I’m getting severely pissed off with the whole thing.
They’re the sort of people who will chalk it down to a bad experience, and not buy from that company again. And I don’t blame them - I sent an email to Serif yesterday morning and still haven’t received a response.
For me I’ll carry on using V1’s until they break or they switch the online activation off, and then look for an alternative. I’ve completely lost faith in Serif.
This is very interesting to me. I guess I’ve always taken it for granted that software, like hardware, has a lifespan. If you own it then sure, yeah, it’s yours, but after a certain point you need to start making concessions if you want to keep using it. Is that out of line with current expectations? I’m only in my mid-thirties but I definitely have held on to some pre-smartphone attitudes about software licensing. I remember playing a cracked copy of Quake 4 on an air-gapped PC to avoid the authentication servers, and setting up virtual XP machines in Windows 7 because Compatibility Mode was unreliable and I didn’t want to buy an updated copy of Microsoft Word.
I had my Late-2013 13” MBP dual-booting Mavericks so that I could keep using Secret of Monkey Island, AudioMulch, Reason 7, and the Korg R3 Librarian. The OS had long since stopped receiving security updates so I had to keep it in airplane mode; after finally upgrading to an M2 Air last month, I was torn between hanging onto the old one for backwards compatibility and selling it to reduce household clutter. I decided to sell it, knowing full-well that I’ll probably never be able to use that software again even though I technically have the right to continue using it.
But air-gapping is something of an early-internet concept, mostly unrealistic today. And with everything being permanently connected, security threats ARE a very real concern; just because something is secure and compatible with your OS today doesn’t mean it won’t be used in an exploit at since point in the future.
Lots to think about here!
Exactly. So telling customers they can use unsupported software 'for as long as you like', is not the best message to be sending out.
If Affinity decides to this every year, then it will be subscription. Currently, it is not. But routine costs of upgrades are acceptable to create a sustainable business, and especially compared to Adobe, this is a very good price.
I thought about getting these before so I have some tools to play with when I need something like Adobe on desktop. Definitely, didn't want to get a Adobe sub, so this works out well.
It would of course have been a nice move to support the older versions at least for a while. But I guess that’s a matter of money and if they hire people to do that the software can’t be so cheap anymore.
And it’s not like the old versions suddenly stop working in the moment the new one is published. There a a lot of old apps that aren’t supported anymore but still work.
Marketing wise it might have been better to say they support it for a year (even if there maybe isn’t much to do in that year) and to make the public discount 20% and generously give the 40% to existing users (maybe even taking in account that new users somehow get that code as well). It would be mainly the same outcome but feel better for the old users.
+1
In a way I view my iPad as a subscription. When I bought my iPad 2 it was the top of the line 64GB cellular model and cost me nearly a grand. It can barely run it's own OS now, so I've had to upgrade several times.
Sometimes you gotta rip the bandaid off, hurts a little in the beginning but shorter than the slow pull (that probably loses money over time).
I think you'll find the PR backlash over this 'upgrade' fiasco is going to hurt Serif as much as it will existing customers. They've enjoyed some pretty cool feedback over the years, a lot of trust has been destroyed.
If you buy a permanent license, it's not a subscription.
Yeah, based solely on the reactions here on the forum, their marketing communication about this upgrade has been decidedly suboptimal. 🥴 I agree perception is important and can make or break trust even if the facts on the ground are the same.
Think I might not post a new topic:
What subscriptions do you pay for? Are they good?
Plenty, non-music production: Spotify, Disney+, Netflix, Peacock, Amazon Prime, Ring to name several.
If Arcade was on iOS I might consider paying for it.
I could probably update the title of the thread at this point — the question now seems to be, “if you buy a permanent license for a piece of software and the developer stops updating that software after releasing a new version, was it actually a permanent license?”
My stance is still yes, but with the impact the App Store has had on software purchasing habits, I can see how someone might disagree. For instance, we’ve gotten pretty used to developers offering optional IAPs to add functionality while keeping the base app updated for existing users.
If Serif had issued the v2 features as an in-app purchase, it would have assuaged most of the complaints we’re seeing around here, but it could also impact a person’s ability to opt out of the updates. Releasing a separate app allows users to adopt the new features while keeping the old version fully intact on their system, which is crucial for anyone with paying clients.
But with that said, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for a timed commitment to security updates for v1; as has been clarified in this thread and the other, most people agree that lifetime updates for a one-time fee are an unrealistic expectation, but ending support for v1 immediately after announcing a paid upgrade has resulted in some users feeling forced into a challenging timeline.
As a side note, I’m surprised how many people are arguing that a 40% discount doesn’t constitute an “upgrade path for existing users.” And I’m frankly flabbergasted that some people would be happy with the 40% discount IF NEW USERS RECEIVED A LESSER DISCOUNT. But that’s a separate discussion.
I haven’t read anything above, but in my head it translates to another bill I have to pay and keep track of…
None of those for us.
Just two: iCloud family sharing top tier; and HP Instant Ink (which we under-use so I should drop down a tier)
(If we don’t include sim-only phone contracts with Virgin möbile)
After I subscribe to an intro offer I generally cancel after subscription term end’s, unless the offer to stay is nice.