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Comments
Ah, this was so good to read. CapnWillie, based on only this, you are my soul-brother.
And it makes me happy to know that you seem to have found your way. We are not that many, and given our typical under-the-radar mode of operation, we are not all that visible in the landscape. It took me a looong time to become ok with who I am, and that still needs some work. 2022 was actually quite a breakthrough year for me (and a crazy-ass rollercoaster ride), and I am 58.
And to the OP: If we are talking about people you are "forced" to be with e.g. work or family, I think it is important to let go of any thought that "they should listen". No, that is completely out of your hands. Their job is to be whoever they are, and that may well be a person who are incapable of listening. Just move on. Do not waste your breath nor your thoughts on them.
I wrote a song about this very subject for my last album!
https://soundcloud.com/bill-saunders/minutiae
Come to the EU.
Or have your own hens, they're not too difficult to handle if you're OK with some regular care 😉
If people don't listen to you then they might not share the same interests.
I think it’s because some people have a tendency to generalise with statements that they make….. this can be irritating and often leads to the Rubber Ear treatment.
I'm a big believer in balance.> @rs2000 said:
To be precise, in a normal interraction I listen 95% of the time and talk 5%. No questions are asked
Me: "I took a big décision yesterday".
Person 1: "Me me me".
The big takeaway is that I look for people who have interresting things to say but I'm in their life because I can listen. But when, 5% of the time I want to talk, they don't care.
And this only confirms it.
So it seems that you can profit from them more than they can profit from you? 😉
Nobody cares
Its a thing. Its not just you. Its really hard to change this. Best way is to change the environment.
Agree upon having a focused conversation. Go somewhere both parties know they can pay attention. Silence phones.
Café, car ride, walking, it depends, but not in an environment filled w distractions.
I imagine the volume of people who listened to you here today balances it all out. 👍
I thought the OP was going to talk about listening to music. But, re people just listening, I don’t think it’s anything new. Listening takes self awareness, patience, non judgementslism and practice. We all have certain degrees of ability to listen (and hear) in our nature. They all need improving if you want to be a responsible conversationalist.
This egoness of non listening expresses itself in a lot of ways. Not listening in a conversation is like buying someone a gift you want them to have, not what they might actually want. You’re not seeing the person in both cases.
On the bottom line, IMO, it’s hard for us to care enough to listen. Everything we are taught in life is about routine and routinizing…. which destroys truthful attention and spontaneity.
We have an idea about what a conversation is. We go through the motions. This routinization is why a lot of sixty year olds are bemused by lives that just “rushed by in a minute”. If you’re a machine, as Gurdjieff describes almost all human activity, then those 50,000 or so conversations you’ve had are mostly modular. Plugging in the worked out responses we have to most subjects and events. All too often, those worked out opinions and responses never change throughout a lifetime.
Friendships were just another chapter for me. Glad I experienced it and it was sufficient.
Here’s an interesting thing, though… The best friends I have ever had are those that I can crack jokes with and get (and somehow stimulate) my particular senses of humor. Often they are as funny as I can be (when I’m around them in particular). The only deep conversations in the past fifty years that had more than average impact on me were with my late teacher, Connie Crothers. She had stuff to say that was worth listening to…. and my ears were, fortunately, open.
One of the people here I look forward to meeting is @CapnWillie. And I think we will.. He has things to say. We’ll see if we guffaw together. That takes it to another level.
Based on what he said, he's not gonna want to meet you though.
5 stars post, will read again.
Thank you. I really like this part:" Listening takes self awareness, patience, non judgementslism and practice."
Forget the EU - come to Australia.
Like the EU we have lots of eggs, but much less red tape nonsense. And better weather
Deal 😁
OK, this might be a little weird and too personal and too long. But ...
I'm by nature one of those people who just couldn't be present in a conversation. My thoughts were either consumed by what I should say in reply or in just trying to get the speaker to shut up so I could go back to what I was doing (self consumed distraction / creation / technical exploration ...). If I could have gone to live in a cave in some forgotten corner of the world, I would have.
A year ago I was in personal crisis because of drug use of a loved one. I felt responsible, guilty, helpless, and consumed with trying to fix the situation and it was driving me farther and farther into isolation and misery. In desperation I went to a 12-step stye recovery group for people from all backgrounds (Alcoholics, Addicts, Co-Dependnts, etc.) to see if I could get some advice on how to help my loved one.
The first thing I learned was I can't fix them; the person I need to work on is me.
That's not the story here. The real eye-opener was the sharing environment in 12-step meetings. We share without judgement, without anyone trying to fix us, without any cross-talk (commenting on someone else's share).
What did that do for me? Well, at first, the very, very, very last thing I wanted to do was talk. I'd become someone for whom every word is an effort, and an actual conversation was exhausting and to be avoided wherever possible. Being freed of the "need" to fix people's problems, learning that only they can do that, and not being allowed to even respond made it so much easier to listen! The fact that every share has so much overlap with my experiences and hearing how people have been learning to deal with those issues (or not), to my surprise, has made it a satisfying experience just to listen.
Next, I thought, if I'm going to consume so much time in a meeting like this, I need to make myself try to ... shudder ... talk about me. I tried to make myself get some words out in each meeting whether I wanted to or not. And guess what? Practicing talking without any need to provide constructive help, prove myself, worry about what anyone is thinking, has been amazing. Even now I catch myself replaying the tape of what I've said and wondering what people think - then I stop myself and remember that it doesn't matter.
The results have been amazing! They bleed over into the rest of my life. I can begin to talk now, freed of a lot of the things that piled on to make me retreat into my shell. I can listen now because I don't feel any need to "fix" the person I'm listening to. I can talk because I'm learning to not care what anyone thinks about what I say. I can listen to their reactions, not feeling the need to rebut anything I don't accept, and consider whether I want to make use of anything that I do.
It has helped here too. I used to feel the need to butt in so often where I have no business. My worst moments here have been when I've tried to fix comments that I felt were out of line or that I don't agree with. So pretentious! Slowly learning to be freed of that has enabled me to read things I totally disagree with without feeling judgmental or any need to respond. Being freed of that makes it interesting and enjoyable to learn where they're coming from.
(I do sometimes respond, trying to add context or explanation of another side, but trying to word it in a non-judgmental way. Sometimes that works, but too often it's perceived as a rebuttal, so often is a bad idea.)
Woah. Long post.
That should do me for the next month. 😂
It's a good thing I've learned to not care what anyone thinks of it. 😎
Yikes! I hadn’t thought of that possibility. 😳🤞🙏
About having a focused conversation, you can get someone who is also interested to do some intentional conversation / concentration / mindfulness technique where you ask the other a question and they just listen intently while you answer, then you swap roles. Some ideas for one way to do that here, even though the site is ancient and horribly designed:
Basic intro to the technique:
https://www.dyad.org/d04process.htm
List of possible questions:
https://www.dyad.org/d04inst.htm
There is also a guy called Gregory Kramer who does retreats based around mindful listening. He argues that silent meditation is limited in its usefulness as much of our suffering is caused by interpersonal relationships, so mindful discusssion can be a very powerful complement to sitting or walking meditation. I think he has a good point and find these practices very powerful.
Maybe it's an easy way to think about it, but I blame social media.
Tik Tok is hugely popular. YouTube shorts are also really popular.
How in the world you can listen to someone more than 1 min when you cannot listen to a 2 minutes YouTube video of your choice?
Focus is a skill. It's just too easy to say "oh, I'm not good at it so let me talk".
It's like if your roomate is telling you, "I'm not good at cleaning so I will let you do the job".
Great Post Wim!
You read all that @Gavinski ?
You do have skills! 😂
Haha!
I have red the whole topic, even the stories of @CapnWillie @Gavinski @wim
, and i understand their circumstances.
I am a loner in what i think and feel and don't even bother to share it with family and some friends, because they don't understand it and turn the conversation to another topic.
There were times i din't bother to get to birthday-parties and gatherings, because their live's and conversation topics confront me, like they live in another world. I mostly came back in the group with the self-reflection: "Ok, i'm a bit odd, but heck! They have to deal with it. I am am what I am". With that mindset i could actually listen to conversations, and sometimes make a comment, where everybody laughs about.
Spot the f on. 👍
When you're trying to train new colleagues at work to perform their duties to the required quality standards and safety levels...?
Yes I agree they are indeed obligated to listen as trainees at work. If they're not motivated by the income or work opportunity they've been given, I'm puzzled as to why they accepted the job in the first place, knowing those factors before they started.