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The darker side of making music

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Comments

  • “You can Easily turn your work into a business”. Not sure if this guy is the dark side or is it the guy he’s responding to, or if it’s what they’re both talking about.

  • Not sure if I agree with everything he is saying in the video but it has a few interesting viewpoints.

  • I do like videos like these. As you said Simon, I don't agree with everything he said, but his viewpoints are always worth watching.

    I used to go through a "my music sucks" phase. I knew I was never in it for the money but rather the enjoyment of creating my own stuff, but man did my music production skills suck when I first started out, lol. (Many of the melodic ideas were solid, but the lyric ideas I wrote and the overclipped productions were cringe.) I put in my "10000 hours" since 2002 and have created some solid tracks since. :)

    I do sell my stuff on Bandcamp in hopes to make a little spare change, but I do have unlimited online streaming enabled as well so people can actually enjoy what I make without having to worry about paying any money. (More for the fun of it.) My "day job" is public piano performance, and that's good enough for me. :)

  • This dude got so negative the past six months or so. I thought at first it was a click bait strategy but now, eh, whatever, I unsubbed. (happy hobby, happy hobby...)

  • I think on balance this was definitely more positive than negative! The 'you're going to die anyway some day' line might not be everyone's cup of tea but it is something I often think I need to remind myself of a lot more regularly.

  • edited April 2023

    @Gavinski said:
    I think on balance this was definitely more positive than negative! The 'you're going to die anyway some day' line might not be everyone's cup of tea but it is something I often think I need to remind myself of a lot more regularly.

    maybe I should actually watch it heh. I'm just talking thumbnails and general bait. Should I click on a tired, depressed looking guy with a grabby title about some 'problem'? Pass. But I shouldn't judge, we all get a case of the Burnahm's from time to time.

  • @AudioGus said:

    @Gavinski said:
    I think on balance this was definitely more positive than negative! The 'you're going to die anyway some day' line might not be everyone's cup of tea but it is something I often think I need to remind myself of a lot more regularly.

    maybe I should actually watch it heh. I'm just talking thumbnails and general bait. Should I click on a tired, depressed looking guy with a grabby title about some 'problem'? Pass. But I shouldn't judge, we all get a case of the Burnahm's from time to time.

    Maybe a watch would be worthwhile, but I definitely get you on the depressing thumbnail. Would you prefer the usual idiotic grinning face thumbnail? Probably not, nor would I 😂

  • @Gavinski said:

    Would you prefer the usual idiotic grinning face thumbnail? Probably not, nor would I 😂

    Hahahaha, nice !

  • I don’t see the difference... both serve the same goal...
    Was there really anything new to anyone?

  • True... If grumpy face becomes the new normal it will be equally annoying.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @Gavinski said:
    I think on balance this was definitely more positive than negative! The 'you're going to die anyway some day' line might not be everyone's cup of tea but it is something I often think I need to remind myself of a lot more regularly.

    maybe I should actually watch it heh. I'm just talking thumbnails and general bait. Should I click on a tired, depressed looking guy with a grabby title about some 'problem'? Pass. But I shouldn't judge, we all get a case of the Burnahm's from time to time.

    Maybe a watch would be worthwhile, but I definitely get you on the depressing thumbnail. Would you prefer the usual idiotic grinning face thumbnail? Probably not, nor would I 😂

    I'd rather watch a video with this serious thumbnail...

    ...than this idiotic thumbnail...

    😂 (Yeah, I don't often take myself seriously.)

  • I watched this a while back and thought it was worthwhile. Even though I am 100% a hobbyist and do not even share my work to people close to me, I can still feel a bit depressed when the idea well is empty. Yeah, it's a hobby, but this hobby means a lot to me. It's really the one thing I do in my life that I do entirely for myself, so if it's not there for whatever reason the negativity I feel from not having it can bleed into other areas of my life. Videos like this are a nice counter-balance to constantly seeing only the best output from social media personalities and feeling inferior. (Sometimes I wish some of these people would have blooper reels where they just scrapped a video because the loops they came up with to demonstrate something were so embarrassingly bad.)

  • @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @Gavinski said:
    I think on balance this was definitely more positive than negative! The 'you're going to die anyway some day' line might not be everyone's cup of tea but it is something I often think I need to remind myself of a lot more regularly.

    maybe I should actually watch it heh. I'm just talking thumbnails and general bait. Should I click on a tired, depressed looking guy with a grabby title about some 'problem'? Pass. But I shouldn't judge, we all get a case of the Burnahm's from time to time.

    Maybe a watch would be worthwhile, but I definitely get you on the depressing thumbnail. Would you prefer the usual idiotic grinning face thumbnail? Probably not, nor would I 😂

    I'd rather watch a video with this serious thumbnail...

    ...than this idiotic thumbnail...

    😂 (Yeah, I don't often take myself seriously.)

    I wouldn't fuck with this first guy! > @gleandibson said:

    I watched this a while back and thought it was worthwhile. Even though I am 100% a hobbyist and do not even share my work to people close to me, I can still feel a bit depressed when the idea well is empty. Yeah, it's a hobby, but this hobby means a lot to me. It's really the one thing I do in my life that I do entirely for myself, so if it's not there for whatever reason the negativity I feel from not having it can bleed into other areas of my life. Videos like this are a nice counter-balance to constantly seeing only the best output from social media personalities and feeling inferior. (Sometimes I wish some of these people would have blooper reels where they just scrapped a video because the loops they came up with to demonstrate something were so embarrassingly bad.)

    Agreed....some of them do have blooper type stuff, but in general social media leans towards 'best foot forward'. Venus Theory has another video on that, something along the lines of being careful when you buy a plugin based on a youtuber's demo.

    It's very true. Obviously any youtuber, unless they're doing a negative review of an app / plugin, is going to do their best to make it sound good, otherwise it can reflect badly on them as a musician. Of course, many ideas get scrapped, there's a lot of experimentation, and wasted time etc, but also, if that stuff made its way into the finished video, a lot of people would switch off. And indeed a lot of people do switch off on vids of youtubers who faff about and experiment without really knowing what they're doing. This often leads to huge anxiety for youtubers who are doing unedited videos on apps or plugins they're not well versed on. Even if doing edited videos it can lead to an exhausting and demoralising number of retakes. This is why I've currently given up on doing edited videos, and generally now avoid very long videos.

    YouTube video watch percent rates can be brutal, and the algorithm pays a lot of attention to who keeps watching after the first minute or two. Basically the algo is to blame, but also the short attention span of viewers. Mostly the algo though, I reckon.

    Social media and smart phones have taken a brutal toll on our attention spans and capacity for nuanced, long term formats. Same goes for youtubers' ability to concentrate while making vids, I'd say. Certainly my own ability to do that was better in the early days of my channel 😅.

    There's also the fact that the bigger your channel gets the more people expect and the less forgiving they are of anything perceived as rambling or incompetence.

    Tldr: don't expect many music youtubers to feel comfortable putting out tracks or ideas in front of the audience that they themselves aren't relatively happy with.

    Then again, the need for constant content to satisfy the YouTube algo works against truly brilliant and time consuming content being produced, in general. Something, hopefully, will come along to replace all this, because it's not ideal for most parties involved, whether viewer or 'creator'.

  • I like his channel …same time ,I truly recommend this book

  • Watched it and yah, I guess he is targeting the depressed and frustrated moreso than being that way himself. Yah trying to make a living with music would be brutal. The amount of compromise would kill it for me. I did it with graphics and visuals but music is too dear to my heart to sacrifice that core joy.

  • In a world where everyone has to be amazing, sucking is a revolutionary act

  • @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    ...than this idiotic thumbnail...

    I am a total sucker for this brand of mockery though. :)

  • @AudioGus said:
    Watched it and yah, I guess he is targeting the depressed and frustrated moreso than being that way himself. Yah trying to make a living with music would be brutal. The amount of compromise would kill it for me. I did it with graphics and visuals but music is too dear to my heart to sacrifice that core joy.

    As the Bible says... Blessed is he that hath two hobbies, one he can whore out and one he can serve.

  • @Gavinski said:
    I wouldn't fuck with this first guy!

    Bwahaha. 😂 That's my "money fills my petrol tank, not 'well wishes' and 'glad tidings'" face. (Seriously, when I play piano, most people tip, some outright disregard me as background fodder, but the worst of the bunch are those who compliment me but are too cheap to leave a tip. I can control my mouth just fine, but I can't mask my aggravation so well.) 🤣


    @AudioGus said:

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    ...than this idiotic thumbnail...

    I am a total sucker for this brand of mockery though. :)

    Me too. 🤣 I absolutely loathe seeing the "wackadoodle" face in Youtube thumbnails. (Cough Markiplier cough.)

  • @AudioGus said:
    Watched it and yah, I guess he is targeting the depressed and frustrated moreso than being that way himself. Yah trying to make a living with music would be brutal. The amount of compromise would kill it for me. I did it with graphics and visuals but music is too dear to my heart to sacrifice that core joy.

    That’s kinda where I’ve landed, I love music so much that it would be hard to kill it but depending on it, especially in this day and age, whereas I still love some aspects of graphics work but it doesn’t connect quite so directly to my heart/soul… film on the other hand, that’s like my universe and I still want to make that work both ways…

  • I suppose I have gone through this at times, but have always fallen back on just playing other people’s music for enjoyment.

    One thing that I have given thought to in the past couple of decades is that there are way more people trying to create music now without being able to play an instrument. I’m sure that must play into things, as it doesn’t give everyone the option to just play for the enjoyment of playing.

    Years ago I worked in a recording studio, the owner of which was a former bass player from Johnny Kidd and the Pirates. He used to say he had no interest in making music of his own anymore, and got more enjoyment from getting session work or playing gigs with local jazz bands (he had no band of his own, but would happily just turn up at a gig and ask for a set list).

    Maybe the fact that we have been moving more and more towards an ‘anyone can make music’ approach is what is causing problems. We can all try to make original music and self-criticize, and feel that if xyz person can make a living from this then anyone can, but perhaps we all need to be able to take a step back and see what is realistic or what we can do to keep things moving.

    While worrying and getting depressed is an all too common thing, it would be good if we can all help each other put the music creation process in perspective. Not everyone can do it, and we should be able to tell ourselves that that’s OK.

  • @recycle said:
    In a world where everyone has to be amazing, sucking is a revolutionary act

    That makes me the modern Che Guevara!

  • As @Gavinski said definitely more positive than negative. Also to keep almost everything in my life in perspective I always remember one particular thing… No matter what it is, there’s always someone/something better and there’s always someone/something worse. Whether it’s a song, an illness, a job, or quite literally anything. So ur in a rut, not to be too cliche but the only constant in life is change. So it will get better.

  • edited April 2023

    @michael_m said:
    Maybe the fact that we have been moving more and more towards an ‘anyone can make music’ approach is what is causing problems.

    Not to mention "anyone can make and present a great TV on YouTube".

    What next...? Anyone can do brain surgery..? :smiley:

  • @Simon said:

    @michael_m said:
    Maybe the fact that we have been moving more and more towards an ‘anyone can make music’ approach is what is causing problems.

    Not to mention "anyone can make and present a great TV on YouTube".

    What next...? Anyone can do brain surgery..? :smiley:

  • @michael_m said:
    I suppose I have gone through this at times, but have always fallen back on just playing other people’s music for enjoyment.

    One thing that I have given thought to in the past couple of decades is that there are way more people trying to create music now without being able to play an instrument. I’m sure that must play into things, as it doesn’t give everyone the option to just play for the enjoyment of playing.

    Years ago I worked in a recording studio, the owner of which was a former bass player from Johnny Kidd and the Pirates. He used to say he had no interest in making music of his own anymore, and got more enjoyment from getting session work or playing gigs with local jazz bands (he had no band of his own, but would happily just turn up at a gig and ask for a set list).

    Maybe the fact that we have been moving more and more towards an ‘anyone can make music’ approach is what is causing problems. We can all try to make original music and self-criticize, and feel that if xyz person can make a living from this then anyone can, but perhaps we all need to be able to take a step back and see what is realistic or what we can do to keep things moving.

    While worrying and getting depressed is an all too common thing, it would be good if we can all help each other put the music creation process in perspective. Not everyone can do it, and we should be able to tell ourselves that that’s OK.

    I don't think that in recent years technology has brought about any changes in terms of access to creative production. Music could have been created by anyone even in the past: in the 50s you could have played a guitar and sing even if completely devoid of any talent.
    Where I notice that yes, a lot has changed is in music distribution: now you can publish your production all over the world without having to pass any type of filter (A&R, artistic impositions from labels, jackal lawyers, image makers, marketing smartasses etc...). If this has been an amazing cultural advance, as it makes all art much more democratic, it also has its downside: I know in real time what every other good artist is releasing, I don't even have time to assimilate all the published masterpieces. in the end I will be overwhelmed by all this talent when I compare it with mine and I will come out frustrated: having too many role models leads to an internal process of disqualification of one's actions

  • @recycle said:

    @michael_m said:
    I suppose I have gone through this at times, but have always fallen back on just playing other people’s music for enjoyment.

    One thing that I have given thought to in the past couple of decades is that there are way more people trying to create music now without being able to play an instrument. I’m sure that must play into things, as it doesn’t give everyone the option to just play for the enjoyment of playing.

    Years ago I worked in a recording studio, the owner of which was a former bass player from Johnny Kidd and the Pirates. He used to say he had no interest in making music of his own anymore, and got more enjoyment from getting session work or playing gigs with local jazz bands (he had no band of his own, but would happily just turn up at a gig and ask for a set list).

    Maybe the fact that we have been moving more and more towards an ‘anyone can make music’ approach is what is causing problems. We can all try to make original music and self-criticize, and feel that if xyz person can make a living from this then anyone can, but perhaps we all need to be able to take a step back and see what is realistic or what we can do to keep things moving.

    While worrying and getting depressed is an all too common thing, it would be good if we can all help each other put the music creation process in perspective. Not everyone can do it, and we should be able to tell ourselves that that’s OK.

    I don't think that in recent years technology has brought about any changes in terms of access to creative production. Music could have been created by anyone even in the past: in the 50s you could have played a guitar and sing even if completely devoid of any talent.
    Where I notice that yes, a lot has changed is in music distribution: now you can publish your production all over the world without having to pass any type of filter (A&R, artistic impositions from labels, jackal lawyers, image makers, marketing smartasses etc...). If this has been an amazing cultural advance, as it makes all art much more democratic, it also has its downside: I know in real time what every other good artist is releasing, I don't even have time to assimilate all the published masterpieces. in the end I will be overwhelmed by all this talent when I compare it with mine and I will come out frustrated: having too many role models leads to an internal process of disqualification of one's actions

    Technology has definitely made a big difference. It look time to learn to play a guitar competently in the fifties, but now it takes almost no time to learn to drag and drop loops that are automatically time stretched and pitch shifted.

    My point is that there are now methods of putting together finished tracks that bypass the part of music creation that allows someone to quickly learn someone else’s music, or just play freely.

  • @michael_m said:

    @recycle said:

    @michael_m said:
    I suppose I have gone through this at times, but have always fallen back on just playing other people’s music for enjoyment.

    One thing that I have given thought to in the past couple of decades is that there are way more people trying to create music now without being able to play an instrument. I’m sure that must play into things, as it doesn’t give everyone the option to just play for the enjoyment of playing.

    Years ago I worked in a recording studio, the owner of which was a former bass player from Johnny Kidd and the Pirates. He used to say he had no interest in making music of his own anymore, and got more enjoyment from getting session work or playing gigs with local jazz bands (he had no band of his own, but would happily just turn up at a gig and ask for a set list).

    Maybe the fact that we have been moving more and more towards an ‘anyone can make music’ approach is what is causing problems. We can all try to make original music and self-criticize, and feel that if xyz person can make a living from this then anyone can, but perhaps we all need to be able to take a step back and see what is realistic or what we can do to keep things moving.

    While worrying and getting depressed is an all too common thing, it would be good if we can all help each other put the music creation process in perspective. Not everyone can do it, and we should be able to tell ourselves that that’s OK.

    I don't think that in recent years technology has brought about any changes in terms of access to creative production. Music could have been created by anyone even in the past: in the 50s you could have played a guitar and sing even if completely devoid of any talent.
    Where I notice that yes, a lot has changed is in music distribution: now you can publish your production all over the world without having to pass any type of filter (A&R, artistic impositions from labels, jackal lawyers, image makers, marketing smartasses etc...). If this has been an amazing cultural advance, as it makes all art much more democratic, it also has its downside: I know in real time what every other good artist is releasing, I don't even have time to assimilate all the published masterpieces. in the end I will be overwhelmed by all this talent when I compare it with mine and I will come out frustrated: having too many role models leads to an internal process of disqualification of one's actions

    Technology has definitely made a big difference. It look time to learn to play a guitar competently in the fifties, but now it takes almost no time to learn to drag and drop loops that are automatically time stretched and pitch shifted.

    My point is that there are now methods of putting together finished tracks that bypass the part of music creation that allows someone to quickly learn someone else’s music, or just play freely.

    I see the computer as a musical instrument like any other, I use it to express emotions. As we all know, the magic in music does not come from the instrument but from the performer. Seen this way, it's completely irrelevant whether I play a guitar, a violin or a laptop.

  • @recycle said:

    @michael_m said:

    @recycle said:

    @michael_m said:
    I suppose I have gone through this at times, but have always fallen back on just playing other people’s music for enjoyment.

    One thing that I have given thought to in the past couple of decades is that there are way more people trying to create music now without being able to play an instrument. I’m sure that must play into things, as it doesn’t give everyone the option to just play for the enjoyment of playing.

    Years ago I worked in a recording studio, the owner of which was a former bass player from Johnny Kidd and the Pirates. He used to say he had no interest in making music of his own anymore, and got more enjoyment from getting session work or playing gigs with local jazz bands (he had no band of his own, but would happily just turn up at a gig and ask for a set list).

    Maybe the fact that we have been moving more and more towards an ‘anyone can make music’ approach is what is causing problems. We can all try to make original music and self-criticize, and feel that if xyz person can make a living from this then anyone can, but perhaps we all need to be able to take a step back and see what is realistic or what we can do to keep things moving.

    While worrying and getting depressed is an all too common thing, it would be good if we can all help each other put the music creation process in perspective. Not everyone can do it, and we should be able to tell ourselves that that’s OK.

    I don't think that in recent years technology has brought about any changes in terms of access to creative production. Music could have been created by anyone even in the past: in the 50s you could have played a guitar and sing even if completely devoid of any talent.
    Where I notice that yes, a lot has changed is in music distribution: now you can publish your production all over the world without having to pass any type of filter (A&R, artistic impositions from labels, jackal lawyers, image makers, marketing smartasses etc...). If this has been an amazing cultural advance, as it makes all art much more democratic, it also has its downside: I know in real time what every other good artist is releasing, I don't even have time to assimilate all the published masterpieces. in the end I will be overwhelmed by all this talent when I compare it with mine and I will come out frustrated: having too many role models leads to an internal process of disqualification of one's actions

    Technology has definitely made a big difference. It look time to learn to play a guitar competently in the fifties, but now it takes almost no time to learn to drag and drop loops that are automatically time stretched and pitch shifted.

    My point is that there are now methods of putting together finished tracks that bypass the part of music creation that allows someone to quickly learn someone else’s music, or just play freely.

    I see the computer as a musical instrument like any other, I use it to express emotions. As we all know, the magic in music does not come from the instrument but from the performer. Seen this way, it's completely irrelevant whether I play a guitar, a violin or a laptop.

    It’s not possible to pick up a laptop and spontaneously play a song, or to sit opposite someone while they spend a minute or two showing you how to play something.

    I’m not talking about the end product, but rather the level of ease with which a performer can play and get results.

    I can’t imagine sitting down at a campfire with a bunch of musicians already playing and instantly be able to play along if you have a laptop.

  • @michael_m said:
    I can’t imagine sitting down at a campfire with a bunch of musicians already playing and instantly be able to play along if you have a laptop.

    This is exactly how I play laptop with the band!

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