About Logic and FCP subscriptions and united consumers power

knewspeak

@jrjulius said:

@knewspeak said:

@AudioGus said:
I have zero problem with subs. The price on this is great. I 'bought' plenty of desktop software that became buggy or unusable a few years later after OS updates, requiring me to pay near full price again anyway. I would rather devs have a revenue stream that they can make more predictive biz dev decisions on.

That’s nothing to do with the purchasing model, that’s called defective, unfit for purpose goods.

Nope, read the EULA. 99% of the time when you buy software as a product, you buy the right to use it “as is,” provided that you follow the rules that the software developer sets out. You don’t actually own anything and the developer isn’t actually entitled to provide updates — they tend to do it because it’s a good business practice but once the revenue stream dries up, they don’t owe you anything. Same with technical support: when was the last time you saw a service level agreement for a one-time purchase?

Software-as-a-service, when done right, includes guaranteed support response times, OS support commitments, and compensation if the product becomes unavailable. It’s not a perfect model but neither is traditional licensing IMO.

That’s T&Cs not the definition of a sale, which can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, Apple has taken liberties and has had to correct this over the years, refunding Apps for instance.

AudioGus

@LostInFoundation said:
I really don’t know why I expected something different from what is happening in this thread.
Maybe it’s because I never said the subscription price isn’t great.
Maybe because I never asked to substitute the subscription, but to add another possibility.
Maybe because I saw on other threads many others saying they would prefer to pay for it.
Maybe because there are already plenty of other threads about it where people can go and say “hey, the price is ok”.
But every time somebody talks about subscriptions, the result is always the same.
People stopping thinking and instead of reading what a thread is about, just starting a “subscription yes/no” war.
Really…I don’t know why I expected something different…
Maybe I’m just a dreamer…

Subscriptions are relatively new while the previous license purchase model was around for quite a while. I guess there just isn't much new to reconsider about it. Expecting a company to support both would probably just be giving themselves extra headaches to deal with. The price of ostracizing a small aging minority vs having complete focus and clear directives I suppose.

knewspeak

@AudioGus said:

@knewspeak said:

@AudioGus said:
I have zero problem with subs. The price on this is great. I 'bought' plenty of desktop software that became buggy or unusable a few years later after OS updates, requiring me to pay near full price again anyway. I would rather devs have a revenue stream that they can make more predictive biz dev decisions on.

That’s nothing to do with the purchasing model, that’s called defective, unfit for purpose goods.

Say wah? OS updates break even good software over time.

Of course, but that should be expected for the future lifecycle, not the initial release.

AudioGus

@knewspeak said:

@AudioGus said:

@knewspeak said:

@AudioGus said:
I have zero problem with subs. The price on this is great. I 'bought' plenty of desktop software that became buggy or unusable a few years later after OS updates, requiring me to pay near full price again anyway. I would rather devs have a revenue stream that they can make more predictive biz dev decisions on.

That’s nothing to do with the purchasing model, that’s called defective, unfit for purpose goods.

Say wah? OS updates break even good software over time.

Of course, but that should be expected for the future lifecycle, not the initial release.

True. Now the window of how far ahead companies can reasonably plan is shortening more and more every day. This will render certain financial models too cumbersome.

espiegel123

@LostInFoundation said:
I really don’t know why I expected something different from what is happening in this thread.
Maybe it’s because I never said the subscription price isn’t great.
Maybe because I never asked to substitute the subscription, but to add another possibility.
Maybe because I saw on other threads many others saying they would prefer to pay for it.
Maybe because there are already plenty of other threads about it where people can go and say “hey, the price is ok”.
But every time somebody talks about subscriptions, the result is always the same.
People stopping thinking and instead of reading what a thread is about, just starting a “subscription yes/no” war.
Really…I don’t know why I expected something different…
Maybe I’m just a dreamer…

Try away.

Sometimes the cost of allowing everything possible (in this case option to subscribe vs buy) costs more than the incremental increase in revenue one would get from picking up the customers that won’t get a subscription.

They also may be as interested in seeing what happens as anything. I suspect this move is less about convincing ios centered musicians to get Logic as it is getting desktop producers to look at iPads as important adjuncts to their studio work.

jrjulius

@knewspeak said:

@jrjulius said:

@knewspeak said:

@AudioGus said:
I have zero problem with subs. The price on this is great. I 'bought' plenty of desktop software that became buggy or unusable a few years later after OS updates, requiring me to pay near full price again anyway. I would rather devs have a revenue stream that they can make more predictive biz dev decisions on.

That’s nothing to do with the purchasing model, that’s called defective, unfit for purpose goods.

Nope, read the EULA. 99% of the time when you buy software as a product, you buy the right to use it “as is,” provided that you follow the rules that the software developer sets out. You don’t actually own anything and the developer isn’t actually entitled to provide updates — they tend to do it because it’s a good business practice but once the revenue stream dries up, they don’t owe you anything. Same with technical support: when was the last time you saw a service level agreement for a one-time purchase?

Software-as-a-service, when done right, includes guaranteed support response times, OS support commitments, and compensation if the product becomes unavailable. It’s not a perfect model but neither is traditional licensing IMO.

That’s T&Cs not the definition of a sale, which can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, Apple has taken liberties and has had to correct this over the years, refunding Apps for instance.

If you bought an app that worked on an iPhone 7 running iOS 13 but the app stopped working when you upgraded to an iPhone 12 running iOS 16, the developer doesn't have any obligation to update the software and you're typically only entitled to a refund if you bought the software within a certain timeframe. That timeframe can differ by jurisdiction but generally speaking, it's your responsibility to confirm software compatibility before upgrading your hardware or operating system. And bear in mind that a refund is very different from a service commitment -- as I mentioned in my previous post, most software-as-a-service providers have specific service commitments and offer partial refunds if they don't meet their SLAs. With a traditional license, it's up to the retailer and your regional consumer protections guidelines.

Just for further illustration, here is an excerpt from the existing Logic Pro X EULA hosted at https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/LogicPro.pdf. This is literally the first section. Emphasis mine:

"1. General.
A. The Apple software, any third party software, content, documentation, interfaces, fonts and any data accompanying this License whether on disk, in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the "Apple Software") are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License. Apple and/or Apple’s licensors retain ownership of the Apple Software itself and reserve all rights not expressly granted to you.
B. Apple, at its discretion, may make available future upgrades or updates to the Apple Software for your Apple-branded computer. Apple may provide you any such upgrades and updates that it may release up to, but not including, the next major release of the Apple Software, for free. With respect to this Apple Software, for example, if you originally purchased a license for version 10.0 of the Apple Software, Apple may provide you for free any software upgrades or updates it might release (e.g. version 10.1 or 10.2 up to, but not including, version 11.0 of the Apple Software. After the next major release of the Apple Software, Apple may also at its discretion continue to provide minor updates and enhancements to the Apple Software. Upgrades and updates, if any, may not necessarily include all existing software features or new features that Apple releases for newer models of Apple-branded computers and may, at Apple's discretion, be provided with or without charge. The terms of this License will govern any software upgrades or updates provided by Apple that replace and/or supplement the original Apple Software product, unless such upgrade or update is accompanied by a separate license in which case the terms of that license will govern."

All of this to say, I think it's fine to want options and I wish OP the best of luck convincing Apple to offer a perpetual license for those interested. But it's very important to understand what you're actually buying.

hes

@Slush said:
Logic will not save you money, even if it has everything in the box, you always want the latest fx/synth releases.
If someone gave me a euro every time someone mentioned ‘I can do this in Drambo’ I would be writing this from a sunny beach somewhere in the south pacific. Drambo didn’t replace anything, Logic will not replace anything, it will ADD something. But in the end, you still want to buy all the latest gear.

I'm not sure whether this is supposed to be positive thing about having Logic Pro subscriptions, or a negative.

Say I buy in and get a Logic Pro subscription, so I then have its all-encompassing abilities to do professional audio production on iOS. Maybe at that point I should get upset at all the many small iOS developers who are endlessly churning out new products that tempt me to buy their little doodads, when as part of Logic Pro I already have a doodad that does the same thing, probably better.

In truth I think it's all good. The Drambo analogy is a pretty good one. For someone who's disciplined and focused, Logic Pro (or Drambo) provides a tool that can make music production a quite inexpensive proposition, if you have the discipline to avoid getting sidetracked with extra third party doodads. For someone who mostly just wants to have fun with music apps, they can go crazy and buy everything that comes out. Or anything in between.

cyberheater

@Tarekith said:
I have a strong feeling that when the next Logic update for MacOS drops it will be part of this same $49 a year subscription. $49 a year to use Logic across all your devices.

It wouldn't surprise me but I can imagine there would be a huge backlash.

user54432

Apple never listens.
one whole decade and still no calculator for iPad !

Lady_App_titude

Ha! How quickly this turns into exactly the kind of thread said at the outset you didn’t want it to become.. Arguments about subs good or bad, the gratuitous “if you don’t like it, you don’t have to use it” (as if it were as simple as that), discussions of “business models” and what corporations need to do to stay profitable, the inevitable licensing agreements post (as if clicking “I agree” actually affirms that anyone ever actually reads those things or that they had any real choice about clicking it)… And so on..

Bottomline: the only thing that made Waves do a rapid about-face, the only thing that would have any impact on Apple, is to not use the product, customers in droves running for the exit door, which happened with Waves, but unfortunately isn’t going to happen this time. But I will do my small part and not use the product.

NeuM

@Gdub said:
I don’t own a Mac
So I have never used Logic Pro
Is it really that good ?
I have ableton on my pc, but haven’t used it for a long while

So I am definitely interested in this
Just wondering do people think this will be a watered down version or the whole package?

No Mac, but possibly doing pro or semi-pro music and recording stuff with your iPad Pro? You seem like the perfect target audience for this then. I've been evaluating Logic Pro on desktop for the past month and it is essentially similar, but very different from GarageBand. Far, far more options and the ability to dig into the minutia of sculpting and forming your sound.

LostInFoundation

@Lady_App_titude said:
Ha! How quickly this turns into exactly the kind of thread said at the outset you didn’t want it to become.. Arguments about subs good or bad, the gratuitous “if you don’t like it, you don’t have to use it” (as if it were as simple as that), discussions of “business models” and what corporations need to do to stay profitable, the inevitable licensing agreements post (as if clicking “I agree” actually affirms that anyone ever actually reads those things or that they had any real choice about clicking it)… And so on..

Bottomline: the only thing that made Waves do a rapid about-face, the only thing that would have any impact on Apple, is to not use the product, customers in droves running for the exit door, which happened with Waves, but unfortunately isn’t going to happen this time. But I will do my small part and not use the product.

VERY quickly…
Even writing “don’t even write an answer here” didn’t work…

FriedTapeworm

@LostInFoundation said:
About subscription (and people saying the ones not liking it are just moaning):
It would be cool if we could get BOTH choices.

What if, FOR ONE TIME, instead of arguing between us, we could unite and try to convince Apple to give us the choice?

If we all start sending Apple requests about a one purchase possibility on top of subscriptions instead of writing it here and then playing the “I’m right and subscriptions are good” “No, I am right and I want to pay and keep what I own” game, maybe we could convince them to give every user what fits better for him.

Lately some users “class act” worked (see Waves), so maybe we could learn from it and start thinking users acting united DO HAVE some voice on the matter

If you are tired to argue with other users instead of trying to solve a situation, don’t even write an answer here. Use the time you would use to insult me here and just write to Apple asking to rethink their decision and add another choice for users (talking also to the ones that are ok with subscription…make a little effort to help your FELLOW musicians preferring to pay full price for it)

Where is the best place to send this request to Apple? I’m happy to do my part.

ervin

@Simon said:

@jrjulius said:
Back to LPX: in essence, asking to pay outright is offering to pay Apple four years upfront, interest-free. And worse, you’re giving them the power to issue separate paid updates and end support for your device whenever it matches their business case.

Very interesting way of putting it.

Nice post!

Except both sentences have some false logic if I may risk the comment. 🙂

First, buying a product is not the same as giving interest-free loan to the seller: it is simply paying the price. A rather different concept imho. You pay the price and you buy something that you then own.

Second, Apple also has the right to end support for your device any time even if you subscribe. Zero difference there compared to buying the app. What they do promise is keep updating the app (technically speaking they probably don't even promise that). In fact, since you will always have the latest version for free, it's arguably a better way to make your device look obsolete (in your own eyes) sooner.

(I'm not for or against LP subscription btw, I haven't decided yet. But I don't think these specific arguments stand up.)

realdawei

Just the time to reply to this thread cost me more than 14 cents 😂

Simon

@LostInFoundation said:
Even writing “don’t even write an answer here” didn’t work…

OK, I won't write an answer. Promise.

LostInFoundation

@FriedTapeworm said:

@LostInFoundation said:
About subscription (and people saying the ones not liking it are just moaning):
It would be cool if we could get BOTH choices.

What if, FOR ONE TIME, instead of arguing between us, we could unite and try to convince Apple to give us the choice?

If we all start sending Apple requests about a one purchase possibility on top of subscriptions instead of writing it here and then playing the “I’m right and subscriptions are good” “No, I am right and I want to pay and keep what I own” game, maybe we could convince them to give every user what fits better for him.

Lately some users “class act” worked (see Waves), so maybe we could learn from it and start thinking users acting united DO HAVE some voice on the matter

If you are tired to argue with other users instead of trying to solve a situation, don’t even write an answer here. Use the time you would use to insult me here and just write to Apple asking to rethink their decision and add another choice for users (talking also to the ones that are ok with subscription…make a little effort to help your FELLOW musicians preferring to pay full price for it)

Where is the best place to send this request to Apple? I’m happy to do my part.

Somebody suggest to write it here:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

But this is the Logic Pro MAC feedback form…I don’t know if it is the right place (even if I suppose MAC version developers are at least in some way involved in iPad version)