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Legality and right vs. wrong aside, it apparently happens. So I'll just leave that as a caveat emptor to those feeling they can't face any downside from frequently requesting refunds. I too feel that something like that could and will be challenged eventually, but that would be little comfort for someone who has their rights trampled on in the meantime.
EU represents about 510 million people and the US is about 330 million. So you are right about them not being "twice" as big.
But the thing that really matters is how much income does the EU market represent versus how much it costs to operate there. We cannot possibly know that unless we had access to Apple's internal numbers. Only Apple will know when it's no longer worth their time and money to operate in the EU.
I found this chart, however I think these are estimates from a third party because as far as I know, Apple does not provide a fine-grained breakdown of revenue by region to the public.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/382175/quarterly-revenue-of-apple-by-geograhical-region/
It's far more likely (and has happened in the past) that they will simply raise prices in the region to compensate. It's been noted more than once that price increases have been disproportionate to just exchange rate fluctuations. Exiting a market of that size would be an incomprehensibly extreme measure. I can't imagine that ever happening.
Operating at a loss is way more common than most people think. Large corporations are in it for the long run, and don’t exit markets on a whim.
btw, refunding apps doesn't actually cost Apple anything materially like it would in the case of a hardware return.
Apple can even claw back the 15% / 30% commission amount from the developers per the developer contract (though developers here have reported that has never happened to them so far).
Won't they lose the credit card service fee of 3%, or whatever? And there may be a minimum fee that could kick in for the painfully low prices of apps, e.g. $2.99.
Perhaps. Uh oh, there goes that $196 Billion in Apple cash reserves. 😬
(seriously though I doubt someone on the scale of Apple pays anywhere near 3%)
Yeah I read the chart and saw the eu is a massive chunk of their market share (as I mentioned I was being an idiot and thinking Europe - which dwarfs the us - not eu). It would be a pretty catastrophic business event that would represent being reduced to a dramatically smaller company in one day, and your presence erased from such an enormous area of the planet.
I also think it’s not as simple as market share or sales. They be losing an enormous amount of representation, placement, advertising, traction, profile, momentum, the knock on effects would be huge in all kinds of ways I am not qualified to think of I’m sure. Companies based in the eu would be changing all of the products and systems they use outside of the eu. Other companies operating here but based elsewhere would be put in a position where they’d have to choose.
These regulations affect everyone not just Apple. It’s not preventing profit, just it’s preventing monopolising, something Apple find difficult to cope with. Their entire business model leans heavily on not allowing people to do things, more so than any other company Ive come across. I do find the concept of it not being worth their time and money a misunderstanding of their place in the scheme of things. They need us, we don’t need them. Apple is just a company, like its competitors who are more or less successful depending on what area you’re looking at (smartphones, os, laptops, TVs and consumer electronics…). It would be destroying itself. Its snorting and kicking of its hooves in the dust is meaningless.
I get people feel differently about controlled environments, and there are pros and cons, it’s the age old security vs freedom thing. You give up things when you use Apple products in order to gain things. Attitudes toward authority, I have noticed, are dramatically different on either side of the Atlantic. At least in the mainstream.
That might not be the best idea as a reaction to the emergence of competing AppStores. I’m not saying you’re wrong and wouldn’t be surprised either.
You have done it“so many times“, really? and you are even laughing about them? Not sure if i misunderstood this but if not, i dislike this mindset to be honest. I am EU citizen as well and in very rare circumstances i ask for refund. We can be lucky to have this law but in the end it will harm every customer if this opened the door to abuse the rules big time. Of course, you immediately uninstall refunded apps directly, right? 😉
Exactly, most people are not getting this. Yes, the EU has around 500,000,000 customers, but the world has 8,000,000,000 inhabitants.
I'm just again being bombarded by more ridiculous EU red-tape ("Digital Services Act") which means I have to spend probably hours on filling out more forms. And for sole traders who don't have a separate legal entity for their business, it looks like they have to PUBLISH THEIR PRIVATE RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS (!) in the whole EU on the App Store. if I didn't need the money, I'd consider simply removing my apps from the App Store for EU customers, especially if I were a sole trader. I know the individual users and citizens aren't to blame, but at least they should UNDERSTAND that despite all the glorious "marketing" by which the EU is trying to sell their heaps and heaps of "benevolent" red-tape, it's not all that wonderful when it comes to the nitty-gritty.
Oh but we've all been saved from the dreaded invisible cookies!
Seriously? You get zero information about who purchases your products yet everyone in the EU gets your home address. Nice.
@Samu and I will be over this weekend to discuss some particulars we would like to see in Meow. We prefer crumpets rather than biscuits with our tea, thanks.
Yeah that's another thing. I used to be in the "web business" for years and when that happened, I basically spent several months full-time updating various websites with this cookie bullshit that ABSOLUTELY NOBODY CARES ABOUT. Or how many people do you know that instead of just blindly and immediately clicking it away, they click on "Read our 7934792343285 service providers TOS" and then spend the rest of their lives reading legal bullshit?
Exactly.
Great points from someone actually having to deal with the mess in the EU that has been created all in the interest of so-called "fairness".
Well, I may be a bit frustrated right now so I will apologize for the slightly over-enthusiastic tone 😂
I'm not blaming people in this thread for thinking that the intentions of all these regulations might be good.
The problem is though it's easy to overlook that most of this stuff does not only apply to "evil" big corporations, but also to small businesses and solo developers, who, instead of spending 30% of their time on administration instead of actual design and development, will now have to spend 50%. And when the "Digital Services Act 5000" comes around in 2027 (speculative), that'll be 90%.
I have this feeling that more and more man-hours in general are spent on less and less useful "stuff". This can't be good neither for mankind nor EU-kind!
ADDENDUM: I'm also writing this while my lips are bleeding because of another new EU-regulation which forces bottle manufacturers to include some kind of "Cap stays connected for recycling" concoction, which is also mostly useless and costs billions of EUR in changing tooling and machinery at the plants and which tears open your lips while drinking.
Businesses (and especially small businesses) in the EU are being buried by bureaucrats. Seems to me the EU would benefit by harmonizing their definition of "monopoly" with the dictionary definition, instead of punishing businesses which become very successful because they deliver what people want and no one is harmed.
Exactly. And don't get me started on money laundering. Yes, I have to fill out MONEY LAUNDERING documentation for the EU every year. Can you believe it?
Ah sure... at least the Starship test flight went well today! 😄🚀
That was quite a spectacular launch. Hope I can see one in person someday soon.
Looking forward to Scott Manley's frame-by-frame analysis so we know what went wrong before SpaceX does 😄
Yes, I know it says "or P.O. Box". I'm curious if that's actually going to work. I am considering going sole trader this year with the app business, so I'll let everyone know 😄
Haha! 🐈 I'm finishing up the Mac version ("real" Mac version, not "Designed for iPad") and will probably put that into TestFlight soon, if the EU doesn't "command" me to first fill out 666 forms to prove I'm not violating any consumer rights by using a cat as a splash screen.
Overnight the internet became semi usable. Progress.
I’m guessing someone’s relating that to the regulations. I for one never said the regulations are ‘good’ or ‘bad’. They have causes and effects that aren’t as simple as some people like to make out. Like everything. An effect is they stop companies like Apple, who are not a charity or a global block party or an artists hangout or however they like to market themselves, but a cynical business the existence of which relies on taking people’s money through the most efficient means possible, from monopolising.
The world population has very little to do with apples market share. Of which the eu represents the second largest region.> @NeuM said:
They aren’t punishing Apple. They are allowing other businesses to have opportunities. Apple doesn’t like that.
Am I wrong? Genuine question. How is Apple being punished when the rules aren’t restricting it but instead preventing it from restricting others. Apple is the dictionary definition of a monopoly in this context. I mean half the time someone seems to be complaining that businesses are affecting government and the other half the opposite. Or that small businesses are suffering and then Apple cited as the victim. The new legislation is pissing off and removing an excess of power from a huge faceless corporation not a local business. For once.
I’m asking genuinely as it feels like the conversation has spilled out into something that resembles more a capitalist-American mindset vs a laissez-faire one. I’m not speaking as an anti capitalist or anything like that. I just don’t think unchecked corporations are ok. Or to be honest, peopel just don’t like the idea of potential security problems and are creating larger scale justifications for it. Again, I might be wrong.
Likewise, I feel that America would benefit greatly from a little global perspective, and less of a submissive attitude to corporations. I’m in the uk and have no love or hate for the eu, or perhaps both when the moment suits. But wherever you go, the people at the top are crooked. There are weaker currents in the shallows.
Again though businesses are being allowed to operate within territories owned by government. They constantly take the piss, rip everyone off, do whatever they like and get away with it and I love seeing them taught their place. Almost every crooked dealing of government has to do with business. The only reason they are here is to take money. It’s not like they’re helping people out and the mean government is trying to stop them. I cannot understand this sympathetic attitude toward companies that could not care less about you or me.
No, we are not ‘lucky’ to have laws protecting our basic rights from companies who exist solely to take our money, and regularly infringe those rights lol. That’s the whole point, they are lucky to be allowed to operate and grow into the huge corporate giant they are. We are not lucky to have iPads. They are lucky we are buying them. Because if we don’t buy their stuff they die. We dont need them. We can buy any other product we like.
So yes, I will always get a refund on apps when I want. It’s my right. It’s not like I’m going into the Steve jobs memorial temple for Good Works/ AppStore buying every app then immediately asking for a refund, whilst cackling beneath the waxing moon, licking a photo of bill gates. Jesus Christ. Lol. I buy a lot of music apps. Sometimes they’re shit. Sometimes they’re amazing. I return the shit ones. I will write a letter of apology later for giving them so much business.
And yes, actually I do uninstall those apps. Because I don’t like them. Hence the refund. Perhaps you should establish that a person is engaged in come nefarious activity before accusing them. Sometimes I might forget. I don’t care. At all. I don’t feel the same unrequited obeisance toward a company as some.
It’s rare that I fall asleep think ‘gosh. I hope Apple is ok.’
You kind of contradicted yourself there:
then
But I can't argue at all with this ...
I've lived in both the US and Europe. I came to greatly appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of approaches to control vs. laissez faire on both sides of the pond. Both find ways to work in their own context. Eventually. And messily.
And yes, Americans are too damn pushy about our own worldview. There is no one size fits all.
Nonetheless, bitching about how regulations directly affect one personally is fair game in my book. ❤️✌🏼
I'm not going to address all of that (and I couldn't because the system here said the post was too long), but I will address the idea that companies only exist to "take (your) money" and "infringe" on your rights. Companies exist to make a profit and you have a choice to choose whichever company you want to buy from. Don't like Apple? Get an Android. Android doesn't carry the same apps as Apple? Well, that's because the developers themselves have made that decision. You can't force developers to choose an inferior platform.
Yes, I was going to say this. Companies can't "take" your money. You give them their money, voluntarily.
But I know of an entity that can take your money, and will do so and if you don't let them, they'll put you in prison: governments 😄
I'm just often surprised how much many people seem to love governments and hate corporations. If you think about it, corporations are much closer to "normal people" than governments are. Because corporations largely consist of "normal people" that, yes, want to make money. Meanwhile, governments "make" money by forcibly extracting it from "normal people" at gunpoint. I simply don't get why people think that governments are somehow "nicer" or "less evil" than corporations? All the facts seem to imply it's the other way around actually.
Don't give them ideas in Brussels 😂
I'm sure I'll regret doing this, but I can't help but point out that while it's impossible to pinpoint numbers, best estimates are that there are millions of direct investors and many tens of millions of indirect investors (those who have pension plans, mutual funds, etc.) that benefit from Apple's profits. Not all that money just disappears into some evil corporate black hole.
Yes, yes, I know far too much goes into too few pockets proportionally! However, I think the majority of people completely overlook that corporations are largely owned by people who benefit from and depend on those profits for income in their later years - many of whom don't even realize that they do.
That isn't to excuse poor behavior! Only to lend a bit of context that is sometimes missing in the discussion of corporations vs. society.
Sorry. Last thought on the subject.
The idea that companies exist to infringe your rights is not mine. You can’t put quotation marks around a single word then insert it into a sentence as though I said it.
Companies only exist to take your money. Companies exist only because they take your money. Companies literally are the result of the taking of money. That is what making a profit is. They are profit. Or they cease to exist. That has no moral aspect. Good, nor bad. And so it needs regulating.
I don’t know what your point is re developers. Of course, and by the same token companies choose what to sell and to who. If they don’t like the conditions to do so they can shut up shop and do something else.
I don’t hate corporations. I’m just aware of the fact that they need regulation. And yes they can take your money. Unless you don’t need water, food, electricity, bank accounts… etc etc. It’s not an either/or. Governments are shitty too. You don’t get to be the head of a company by being an absolutely lovely person.
The bit in bold is obviously deranged. lol. We can all pick examples of mikitary juntas or the companies murdering people with chemicals etc.
If we’re going to be fair then governments are also employed and fired by the population. Their purpose is to run a country. A company;s is to make money.. And governments as well as being involved in all kinds of disgusting behaviour build hospitals etc etc etc. It’s just a pointless reductive position to take to say either is good or bad.
No. facts don’t imply it’s the other way round. You’ve literally just made that up.lol. There are plenty of evils to go round and plenty of reasons to argue either way. Which would be about as fruitful as the Joshua tree.
You’re just for whatever reason conflating not blindly loving corporations with loving government. I’ve never met anyone who loves the government in my life, except if I’m honest the odd American. Shrug.
Look. I am willing to bet a have far greater reasons to dislike the government at the moment than the overwhelming majority of people here. I can’t go into it as I have PTSD because of it. But I am disabled and it’s very hard to live in my country at the moment - and I mean, actually live, due to stuff I just can’t talk about it.
Yeah, I’ve no problem with that. I just meant the context of this specific regulation. Anyway I’m retiring
health stuff going on
Beyond this post I find no need to discuss this with you further. You said this:
Another good example of retarded EU regulations - Claude 3 (latest LLM model, in some aspects better thst GPT 4) - because of Brusel idiots regulations they made it unavailable for EU.
We will slowly become underdeveloped museum where civilised world will go just for vacation to enjoy nature.
There is reason why Americans calls us "Europoors". We shit on ourselves. Voluntarily.