What is “Mixing Time Signatures”?

Telstar5

THIS …At exactly 30 seconds there is a single bar of 3/4 time in an otherwise 4/4 song…This happens repeatedly throughout this Thom Bell penned classic . You could not have done this in Xequence, Cubasis, GarageBand or FL Studio Mobile..I think you can do it in MTS for iPad, for sure in Logic Pro for iPad, Audio Evolution and Auria Pro..

Telstar5

At 0:14 seconds and repeatedly throughout the tune,

Krupa

I can never get my head round all these time signature things logically, but can play along just fine as long as I don’t think about it 😅

richardyot

The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel has some unexpected additional measures in some of the verses. This kind of thing happens organically when people are performing, I'm sure they don't think about it too analytically.

DMfan

I do think this is possible in Roland Zenbeats in loop view, just having one loop play at a different tempo. Being a simple 4OTF- guy I have never tried it. @wim?

/DMfan🇸🇪

Telstar5

@DMfan said:
I do think this is possible in Roland Zenbeats in loop view, just having one loop play at a different tempo. Being a simple 4OTF- guy I have never tried it. @wim?

/DMfan🇸🇪

Sorry , you’re correct .. I forgot to mention ZB.

SevenSystems

You gotta have some serious knots in your brain in order to even consider inserting a bar of 3/4 into a 4/4 song 😁 but you're right, you can't do it in Xequence.

(I mean, I could possibly tolerate a bar of 2/4... 🙄)

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:
You gotta have some serious knots in your brain in order to even consider inserting a bar of 3/4 into a 4/4 song 😁 but you're right, you can't do it in Xequence.

(I mean, I could possibly tolerate a bar of 2/4... 🙄)

Worth pointing out - there's nothing difficult at all about what The Stylistics did in that track. Any musician with even a semi decent sense of timing and rhythm could do it. It's still basically like thinking in 4/4 time, but having to remember to come in one beat early!

But yeah, dealing with it on a DAW / piano roll level is probably a whole nother can of worms so I can definitely understand your reticence 😂

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:
You gotta have some serious knots in your brain in order to even consider inserting a bar of 3/4 into a 4/4 song 😁 but you're right, you can't do it in Xequence.

(I mean, I could possibly tolerate a bar of 2/4... 🙄)

Worth pointing out - there's nothing difficult at all about what The Stylistics did in that track. Any musician with even a semi decent sense of timing and rhythm could do it. It's still basically like thinking in 4/4 time, but having to remember to come in one beat early!

But yeah, dealing with it on a DAW / piano roll level is probably a whole nother can of worms so I can definitely understand your reticence 😂

It would be easier than a tempo track! I'd be willing to add support for separate time signatures per clip for $1000... (sorry, at the current level of sales, I can only accept advance payment for any new features...)

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@SevenSystems said:

You gotta have some serious knots in your brain in order to even consider inserting a bar of 3/4 into a 4/4 song 😁 but you're right, you can't do it in Xequence.

It's not always that difficult. Think of any Burt Bacharach song you know. You can easily hear the melody in your head, but it almost certainly features a few time signature changes.

Sometimes if there are many shifting or over-lapping patterns, then it is easier for musicians to sight read if you write everything in four, even if it's not really in four. That can be a good solution when writing for studio musicians, so that the hired guns can get it all done in one or two takes.

This might also be a solution when your daw lacks a time track.

But if we have time to practice and learn a song, then my feeling is that it's better to notate the time signature changes, so that readers really understand what is going on. In this Stylistics song we're just dropping one beat at the end of every phrase. It's so simple and repeats regularly; why not write it out?

MadGav

@Krupa said:
I can never get my head round all these time signature things logically, but can play along just fine as long as I don’t think about it 😅

I’m just now reading a book about the broader picture of this - message: don’t think about it! Counter: thinking logically while playing doesn’t work. (Effortless Mastery - Kenny Werner)

Telstar5

@Gavinski :: “Remembering to come in a beat early “ IS mixing time signatures .. Nobody would write in “Come in a beat early here” in 4/4 time . Look at ANY written sheet music for the Beatles “All You Need Is Love “ or the written sheet music (ANY version) of the Stylistics “People Make The Word Go Round “..
You could write out Dave Brubek’s “Take Five “ inn4/4 time also suppose but the question is , would you want to? > @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@SevenSystems said:

You gotta have some serious knots in your brain in order to even consider inserting a bar of 3/4 into a 4/4 song 😁 but you're right, you can't do it in Xequence.

It's not always that difficult. Think of any Burt Bacharach song you know. You can easily hear the melody in your head, but it almost certainly features a few time signature changes.

Sometimes if there are many shifting or over-lapping patterns, then it is easier for musicians to sight read if you write everything in four, even if it's not really in four. That can be a good solution when writing for studio musicians, so that the hired guns can get it all done in one or two takes.

This might also be a solution when your daw lacks a time track.

But if we have time to practice and learn a song, then my feeling is that it's better to notate the time signature changes, so that readers really understand what is going on. In this Stylistics song we're just dropping one beat at the end of every phrase. It's so simple and repeats regularly; why not write it out?

“Anyone Who Had A Heart” by Burt Bacharach
https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0085840

Telstar5

@Krupa said:
I can never get my head round all these time signature things logically, but can play along just fine as long as I don’t think about it 😅

I’m just now reading a book about the broader picture of this - message: don’t think about it! Counter: thinking logically while playing doesn’t work. (Effortless Mastery - Kenny Werner)

@MadGav : I’m a jazz drummer .. I’ve worked with Kenny Werner.

espiegel123

@SevenSystems said:
You gotta have some serious knots in your brain in order to even consider inserting a bar of 3/4 into a 4/4 song 😁 but you're right, you can't do it in Xequence.

(I mean, I could possibly tolerate a bar of 2/4... 🙄)

It happens a lot in pop and rock and folk music to have occasional measures with a different number of beats fro the main.

Gavinski

@Telstar5 said:
@Gavinski :: “Remembering to come in a beat early “ IS mixing time signatures .. Nobody would write in “Come in a beat early here” in 4/4 time . Look at ANY written sheet music for the Beatles “All You Need Is Love “ or the written sheet music (ANY version) of the Stylistics “People Make The Word Go Round “..
You could write out Dave Brubek’s “Take Five “ inn4/4 time also suppose but the question is , would you want to?

I didn’t say anywhere though that it was not mixing time signatures. My post was in relation to SevenSystems comment that “You gotta have some serious knots in your brain in order to even consider inserting a bar of 3/4 into a 4/4 song”. Again, to repeat what I said: this might be difficult for a dev like him to implement in a DAW but the example in this (fantastic) Stylistics track is not at all difficult to play from a musical point of view, as a musician playing an instrument live, or as a singer singing. That’s all!

Telstar5

@Gavinski: I never said it was difficult : I merely posted two examples (now three if you count the Burt Bacharach tune ) of mixing time signatures.

Telstar5

Playing in 4/4 time and “olaying one less count” IS inserting a bar of 3/4 . No matter how one thinks of it . It’s like playing in Eb. It’s Eb, NOT Bb minus one flat .

Gavinski

@Telstar5 said:
@Gavinski: I never said it was difficult : I merely posted two examples (now three if you count the Burt Bacharach tune ) of mixing time signatures.

Maybe there is communication breakdown of some kind here. Because you wrote to me: “ Remembering to come in a beat early “ IS mixing time signatures” - the way this is phrased makes it seem as though I had previously said it was not mixing time signatures. I didn’t. This is why I am confused that you are addressing this message to me. Do you know what I mean?

Gavinski

@Gavinski said:

@Telstar5 said:
@Gavinski: I never said it was difficult : I merely posted two examples (now three if you count the Burt Bacharach tune ) of mixing time signatures.

Maybe there is communication breakdown of some kind here. Because you wrote to me: “ Remembering to come in a beat early “ IS mixing time signatures” - the way this is phrased makes it seem as though I had previously said it was not mixing time signatures. I didn’t. This is why I am confused that you are addressing this message to me. Do you know what I mean?

I see maybe where the confusion lies, ah. Maybe you thought that because I said ‘you just have to come in a beat early’, I was saying that it was not mixing time signatures. No, that is not what I was saying. I was simply saying to Seven Systems that it was not, as he seemed to be implying, a difficult thing to do. Anyway, I don’t disagree with you about anything here, so let’s not waste any more time discussing it - I agree with you that this is mixing time signatures. I disagree with Seven Systems implication that musically this is a difficult thing to do, at least in the example which was posted at the start of this thread.

MadGav

@Telstar5 said:

@Krupa said:
I can never get my head round all these time signature things logically, but can play along just fine as long as I don’t think about it 😅

I’m just now reading a book about the broader picture of this - message: don’t think about it! Counter: thinking logically while playing doesn’t work. (Effortless Mastery - Kenny Werner)

@MadGav : I’m a jazz drummer .. I’ve worked with Kenny Werner.

😮

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@Telstar5 said:
You could write out Dave Brubek’s “Take Five “ inn4/4 time also suppose but the question is , would you want to?

No, that would be silly. I was talking about situations with far more time complexity where you need someone to be able to sight read it perfectly on the first take. It's a trick I learned studying with film composers back in the early 80s. It may well be obsolete today!

But it remains a solution for DAWs lacking a time track. You could absolutely do Take Five in a DAW that only permitted 4/4. Obviously not an ideal solution though.

Poppadocrock

The Beatles do it in several tracks.

Telstar5

@richardyot : Re Sounds of Silence : Yes but to a lesser extent. There are no odd bars there just a few bars of 2/4 or 6/4 depending on how one would choose to write it .

wim

@Gavinski said:
I disagree with Seven Systems implication that musically this is a difficult thing to do, at least in the example which was posted at the start of this thread.

I guess it's pretty difficult to tell when someone is typing with their tongue in their cheek.

mrufino1

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@Telstar5 said:
You could write out Dave Brubek’s “Take Five “ inn4/4 time also suppose but the question is , would you want to?

No, that would be silly. I was talking about situations with far more time complexity where you need someone to be able to sight read it perfectly on the first take. It's a trick I learned studying with film composers back in the early 80s. It may well be obsolete today!

But it remains a solution for DAWs lacking a time track. You could absolutely do Take Five in a DAW that only permitted 4/4. Obviously not an ideal solution though.

There’s a terrible smooth jazz version of take five that is in 4/4, dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. There’s also lots of versions of the star spangled banner in 4/4 and that makes me angry. Usually an arrangement by a pop or r&b singer at a sporting event.

Burt Bacharach kicks butt in his use of time signature or feel changes. I love how he manipulated phrasing. Playing “Say a Little Prayer” at weddings was always a good time watching people try to dance to it.

Sorry, I’m a little cranky today…lots of live sound this week and not lots of rest!

Rusty Cage by Soundgarden has some crazy things going on with the time.

Vinnie Colauita on Ten Summoner’s Tales is a masterclass in making non 4/4 sound really smooth. Seven Days always amazes me, and that one tune (can’t remember the title) where he is in 7/8 but doing the ride in 4/4 (I think that’s what was going on). Was it Love is Stronger than Justice? Something like that. Is been a while since I heard it.

Oh, one final one- this song is crazy and her vocals can be, uh, interesting, but the groove is awesome.

Telstar5

@mrufino1 :Oh yeah.. Bacharach .. The holy grail.. of mixing meters in pop songs .. No question

Daev

Have look at ‘Ishala’: 60+ talas (rhythm cycles). Time signatures are a smaller number as many talas have the same time signature.
https://www.swarclassical.com/iShala/

NeuM

And just about every Rush album from the 70s. 😉

Telstar5

@Daev said:
Have look at ‘Ishala’: 60+ talas (rhythm cycles). Time signatures are a smaller number as many talas have the same time signature.
https://www.swarclassical.com/iShala/

What the ….?? Wow.. Interesting! Thanks

Telstar5

@NeuM said:
And just about every Rush album from the 70s. 😉

Well that’s like the opposite of why we’ve been talking about . That’s like an odd bar of 4/4 within a song in 7/8, lol

richardyot

@Telstar5 said:
@richardyot : Re Sounds of Silence : Yes but to a lesser extent. There are no odd bars there just a few bars of 2/4 or 6/4 depending on how one would choose to write it .

This is how it's notated in Ultimate Guitar: written down it's a mixture of 4/4 and 6/4, but I think when it's being performed it's thought of as 4/4 with two extra beats on the bars at the end of each verse.