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Question - How to Produce Ambient lasting longer than 30 minutes/for installations?
Hi everyone. Okay, so I've been following this Youtube channel S1gns of L1fe for the better part of a week now. His channel is great for gathering tons of inspo when producing Ambient and is also perfect for beginners (and even intermediates) to the genre. He even has live 1-on-1 coaching sessions for $90/hour (plus a free 15-minute consultation beforehand). However, I think I may want to save $90 (at least until February) and ask here first since there are many super talented Ambient creators on this forum.
So how does one go about producing Ambient that lasts longer than 30 minutes/is suitable for installations? Here are some things...
- I'm inspired by amazing pieces like Jean-Michel Jarre's "Waiting for Cousteau", Brian Eno's "Reflection" (both the app and the recorded version), etc.
- I don't want to use a modular system/Eurorack set up (at least not at this time, lol) nor apps like Wotja that make my simple caveman brain hurt. 🤣 I want to stick with Cubasis 3.
- It's not a lack of creativity per se but rather a lack of technical knowledge. If I lack creativity, I just simply open that new Oblique Strategies app someone pointed me to.
- I want to avoid monotony.
Also, I'm asking not for a lack of searching for answers on Youtube and Google, lol. Goodness knows I've tried. I've even tried ChatGPT, which wasn't all that helpful believe it or not. (Guess it also needs to learn how to produce longform 30+ minute Ambient, lol.)
And no, this isn't me trying to "cheat" on my own "10+ Minute Ambient Challenge" either! 😂 In fact, I already produced Ambient that lasts for slightly over 20 minutes (it's "MMXXV"), but it's like two different tracks melded into one rather than one cohesive whole. And I'm pretty decent at producing tracks 10-15 minutes long, even though most of my Ambient works as of late are under 10 minutes so Soundcloud can recommend them to others. 🤣
(In fact again, I'm in the midst of producing my piece of Ambient for the 10+ minute Ambient challenge. In this one, I'm only using the sounds and plugins (including IAPs) provided in Cubasis 3.7, with the exception of my usual standard mastering chain. That said, I'll resume working on that track as soon as this post is posted.)
If anyone can help me out, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'll also tag @Svetlovska , the queen of Dark Ambient, in case she's lurking. ❤️
Comments
Half joke, but also half serious.
LOL! Sunvox is definitely a modular environment, and I'm trying to avoid using that (at least for right now).
My cousin suggested I use the Yahoo search engine instead of Google, and I found this article!
https://unison.audio/how-to-make-ambient-music/
Reading it now.
I would probably have another look at Wotja. Yes, it’s not the most intuitive interface, but after you figure out the basic logic, it’s not as complicated as it looks… complex yes, but you can do quite a bit with the free Lite version, including hosting it as AUv3.
Load up one of the included projects, change a few parameters and instruments, and maybe add some AU effects to make the project your own… hit play.
It the easiest way to get infinite compositions that sound musically constructed but still generative.
You don’t have to completely understand the app to get great output that you can easily make your own.
I might be wrong here but I don’t think the point of ambient music is to keep the listener attention for over 30 minutes.
I listen to ambient to relax and sometimes to get back to sleep. I don’t care if it loops. Maybe others listen for other reasons.
Thanks mate, and while one of my New Year's resolutions is to learn modular environments, I feel now isn't necessarily the time. I also prefer to work with audio at this time (even bouncing to audio). ☺️
Hmmm, true. True. That's very true.
Sometimes I need to get into the right mindset to make it relaxing than entertaining. Then again, I want to recreate the feeling of "Waiting for Cousteau" and "Reflection". Not copy what I hear, but to nail down the vibe these longform pieces make me feel.
I know there's a wide variety of music considered ambient, but I agree the point is to set a mood and feeling rather than tell a story. Even if it's not for relaxation, the goal is still to create a scene.
You may have already found state azure @jwmmakerofmusic, but if not it's worth checking out. He is using a very complex setup, but has a lot of track-from-scratch type videos where you can see his workflow. It has a surprising amount of looping melodies, baselines, etc., without sounding repetitive.
Using asynchronous loops is a handy and nifty way of creating interesting and 'generative' music, that changes organically over time.
Can you use a MIDI generating app like Audio Modern's Riffer connected to several synths or sampler apps.
Riffer can generate and auto change MIDI patterns infinately. You could leave it running for 100 years if you wanted to...
Thanks for sharing this channel! I subscribed and will check out his track-from-scratch vids.
Should provide me plenty of inspo.
(Bold is mine)
Not sure how I didn't think of that. 😅 I mean I indeed made loops of varying lengths, but they were always repeating on a bar. 7-bars long for one, 9-bars long for another, etc. This prompted me to realise I could turn snap off and adjust where the MIDI loop ends not on a beat or bar, repeat that as much as I wish, and then go further from there. (Sorry if I'm not making any clear sense, it is 5am by me and am currently working on waking up lol.)
I do have a handful of generative MIDI apps (Ioniarics, Midistep, Fugue Machine, Harmony Bloom, etc), but...
...I looked into Riffler and Riffler Flow, and one I deposit money from my next gig, will definitely purchase both. These apps seem to be able to be loaded as MIDI plugins in Cubasis 3 (at least that's what's advertised in both plugins' descriptions).
Neat stuff.
"Asynchronous loops" have already been mentioned, but I think it might be worth expanding on. Remember that "ambient" as we now think of it was brought to wider attention by Eno's "Discreet Music", which relied on long sequences fed to Fripp's tape loops. I used to splice loops several feet long, wrapped from the capstan out to microphone stands, to get this effect.
Eno's methods have been widely expanded upon, of course, and the most important feature of the genre's progression is change (modulation), as opposed to his original idea of quiet, phased quasi-randomization... a kind of updated Terry Riley approach.
But it's not all "set it and forget it", either. Steve Roach, Robert Rich, Lustmord, etc. are craftsfolk... impressionists who perform their works, drawing on large and constantly increasing libraries of found and synthetic sound. I strongly recommend attending to material of their kind, which is probably the most directly related to the kind of thing you want to do, having decided to stick with the basically linear "tape metaphor" methods of Cubasis.
Were it me, I wouldn't use Cubasis at all, except perhaps as a way to glue rendered tracks together and long-mix across them to produce more extensive results. In AUM - which is what I use all the time - you can ride an intermediate boundary between the idea of modular synthesis and the more common "bank of keyboards" without having to actually build every synth voice. With all the controllers and generators and synth apps and routing, you can build very complex and responsive systems.
Start with an idea. Let the idea inform the style. Let serendipity guide choices. Be clear on mood, and intent.
Just my thoughts.
The app I'm talking about is Riffer (no "L") by Audio Modern, not Riffler or Riffler Flow.
Doug shows how the auto change feature works at 50 secs in:
He also has a more up-to-date Riffer video here:
App is here:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/riffer/id1435691909
The little infinity icon that looks like an "8" on its side...
... allows you to set it to auto create new patterns every X passes of the playhead.
But excellent thoughts nevertheless. I'll look up what is mentioned above.
I tried AUM for building live Ambient, but rarely did I turn out anything worthwhile. With Cubasis, I've been turning out some really great Ambient, but not longer than 10-15 minutes. 😂
Oh cool! Okay now I see. Thanks mate.
I love the way this looping method sounds with some careful crafting. Here's a good video from a while back that really opened my eyes to it:
I'm in the opposite state regarding AUM vs. Cubasis/similar. I rarely get results I like with a linear DAW-type tool. I usually just start messing with stuff and recording a mixdown in AUM. Loopy Pro is great of course for looping sessions like this! To each their own.
Play those loops in AUM. Then modulate the volume of each loop by putting a lfo on each loop's AUM fader. Instant generative ambient that can last as long as you want.
That sounds like a plan.
Will give this a shot soon.
I would be thinking in terms of story tbh; digging into what I want the listener to be experiencing, how I can relate something to them through the sounds and rhythms, peaks and troughs. Think of it as a short film, with an opening, a break in the narrative that takes us over a threshold into a new world, then some struggles, an ultimate one, before a return to the old world, but different… that’s the classical structure anyway. I think you’ve more than got the technical skills to manage this, it’s just finding the right motivation and the why of it that will be the interesting bit…
That's actually a pretty cool way to think about it!
The three-act structure. Marking that down for one of my Jamuary prompts.
I didn’t mean drums, just how things are paced. I think ambient is allowed structure though, most of the good stuff has something interesting underpinning it, even if it’s only in the intention…
FWIW (i.e. not very much): I have yet to see a clear-cut definition that fits all the ambient artists I listen to. Some have beats and/or rythmic patterns, some don't. Aphex Twin, Biosphere, Brian Eno, Boards of Canada, etc all have structures and sometimes beats.
There is no need to gate-keep a genre, but then again I also hate the "need for" thousands of sub-genres people apply on various flavors of Metal so I guess definitions are hard to nail down. I'm more surprised they matter, at all. If something sounds good, who cares what genre it could possibly be?
And yes, just to make it clear, my two fave genres of music are Metal (of the more technical/brutal sort) and Ambient.
Exactly. Ambient doesn't really have have rules to follow other than "mix it down well enough". This thread is more me just looking for some ideas to nail down extending a piece of Ambient rather than looking for rules to follow per se. Got plenty of interesting ideas here. ☺️
OK, so these are just some random thoughts. It’s 03.30 and I should really have hit the sack a couple of hours ago!
Hope at least some of that helps!
Lol, 3am thoughts are always welcome. Sometimes that's when the best ideas form. (Sometimes that wakes me up at night and then I have to mark the idea down somehow. Thanks for writing this though at such an ungodly hour. ☺️
Maybe not generative per se, but I get what you mean mate.
Fair enough.
Ahhh, now i see. And nah, you're not necessarily "picking at my tools", but rather you're giving me some good solid advice and ideas. I love Cubasis because of its linear fashion, but I'm starting to understand what you're talking about.
Not exactly against modular environments. In fact, one of my 2025 resolutions is to wrap my head around such environments. I think I'll take the plunge with Wotja to be honest (a subscription worth having imho), because it can host plugins! @imtim and @impete definitely busted their asses off making the modular environment with lots of love and care and many, many updates.
If AUM is masquerading as a mixer but is indeed a modular environment, how much more intuitive would Wotja be?
But for now, I'm going to just stick with Cubasis for the moment as it's what I'm very well-versed in using. (I'm participating in Jamuary, where I produce a track each day. So far, it's been a fun exercise.)
I remember sometime last week or two weeks ago one of our mates created this "set it and forget it" patch and recorded it out in nature. Damn if I can find the thread atm (it's late at night for me too, and the weed is starting to kick in, lol), but what an incredible video and piece of music.
Perhaps you're right mate. I'm often prone to overthinking things, I admit it. 😅 And overthinking can lend itself perfectly to overproducing.
Oh, yeah, that. I don't care about genre definitions as I mentioned above, because Ambient can be anything . Honestly, there are as many subgenres of Ambient as there are Ambient artists out there. 😂
That's alright to be fair.
Sometimes Ambient can be structured, sometimes not. It is indeed about texture and mood, and sometimes I want to be in the mood for structure, and sometimes not. 😂
Definitely does help, my friend.
You gave some really solid, good advice and feedback, and I'm absolutely grateful for it. 🙏 Thank you kindly. 🙂
Here you go
https://forum.loopypro.com/discussion/63459/unattended-ambient-1
I like to do this in AUM, but have been working my way through Loopy Pro lately, because I use a lot of live loops in this type of piece. Look into the Time Lag Accumulator if you're interested in the inspiration for this looping style/technique.
usel lotbof Hildas including build in sequencer in Hikda with mutate change enabled.. endless evolving melodies...
Just loop it, no one will notice 😉
So, the real question is - how to make less or shorter ambient?
/challenge accepted
This video , interestingly explain why metal as to have so many sub genre.
