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Which MPE instruments on iOS allow you to assign all 5 parameters of MPE?

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Comments

  • GavinskiGavinski
    edited January 3

    @Tentype said:
    Finding synths that actually allow the user to assign mpe parameters individually is pretty challenging. Seems to be common to allow cc74 an independent assignment, and sometimes pressure, but 4 or 5 parameters is rare for sure.

    Bleass Megalit it's one of the very few that gives you 5. 💕

    I opened bleass megalit just now for the first time in a few years. The UI is often unresponsive for me, especially in the AUv3, but even standalone I'm getting some problems. Anyone else?

    Edit: never mind, restart fixed it
    Edit: no, still having problems

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @RedSkyLullaby said:
    Volt I think is full MPE

    I also just tried Volt, again for the first time in years. Can’t see how to assign Note Off Velocity, do you (or anyone) know? Don’t think there is a manual for this, there wasn’t a few years ago.

  • heshes

    @Gavinski said:

    @hes said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @hes said:

    @Pxlhg said:

    @Gavinski said:
    Which MPE instruments on iOS allow you to assign and control all 5 MPE parameters, or at least 4? To clarify, I mean:

    1.  Pitch Bend (X-axis): Per-note pitch control for slides or vibrato.
2.  Timbre (Y-axis): Modulating tone or texture, like filter cutoff or wavetable position.
3.  Pressure (Z-axis): Pressure after striking a note, often controlling dynamics or modulation.
4.  Velocity: Initial note attack or volume based on how hard you strike.
5.  Release Velocity: How quickly you release a note, shaping the sound’s tail.

    Many apps partially support MPE, but I want to compile a list of those that allow full assignment of all 5 parameters—or at least 4. Release velocity, in particular, is rare to find as an assignable parameter.

    Are you saying those expensive single instrument SWAM apps does not, not even 4 by your list standard. That is very disappointing, I don't have a proper MPE controller but when I do "browse and dream" -- I usually connect my controller to SWAM and mpe' the shit out of it (I mean, it is, still a dream).

    It's a very good point to bring up Gavin.

    The SWAM apps are mostly monophonic (except SWAM string instruments allow two notes?), so even though they allow lots of expression modulation they are not really MPE at all. It's not a failing of theirs; it's just that monophonic instruments can't be MPE. I think just about any monophonic synth can be made to respond to all five of the MPE parameters, assuming they are sent to the synth.

    The key thing about MPE is that it's Midi Polyphonic Expression, which allows for multiple notes to be played at the same time, while each note is modulated independently of the others. For example, different pitch bends can be applied to each note, or the notes can have different filter cutoffs, or change dynamics differently. On ordinary polyphonic synths that are not MPE, the synth applies a single pitch bend, filter cutoff, etc. to all notes being played at the same time.

    Not sure how the SWAM apps respond to release velocity, but that's kind of a poor sister of the first four modulations, not many situations (or instruments) where it makes sense to do much with release velocity, which like velocity is just a single instantaneous value for each note, not something that allows you to modify a note's expression over time. In most cases with MPE, I think the first three parameters (pitch bend, timbre, and pressure) are by far most important. (Velocity, of course, is also important, but since most[?] non-MPE polyphonic synths already allow simultaneous notes to have different velocities, you don't really gain anything with respect to velocity modulation when you move to MPE.)

    Regarding SWAM apps, I would say that even though they aren't MPE because they're monophonic, they are still among the most satisfying apps to use from a good MPE controller, which will have a natural-feeling way to modify the parameters associated with the x, y, and z axes.

    Thnx Hes. I agree that Release Velocity is not a very important one, though it is nice to have. MPE Velocity, on the other hand, is a super important one. Baby Audio Atoms doesn't have it the lack of it is horrible imo. Note-on velocity allows you to gradually fade in a note when playing, This is similar to the Pressure parameter but is different, as it's about the attack portion only, whereas pressure is similar to aftertouch.

    Regarding velocity, I was mostly just suggesting that MPE support of per-note-velocity isn't especially exciting or groundbreaking, because per-note velocity is already present in many/most polyphonic synths. The main thing added by MPE is the support for a continuous stream of per-note modulations on x/y/z axes.

    That sounds strange with Baby Audio Atoms, and also like it's something specific to that synth, or a problem with the controller.

    It's not possible to have a Note On message without a velocity (has to be there and be from 0 to 127), so I'm not clear what you mean by it not being supported. You mean with Baby Audio Atoms the note velocities aren't independent?

    With a decent controller there is no problem creating a gradual fade in using pressure, whether MPE or not. Initial velocity will be there in the Note On message, presumably quite low just like the values in the pressure messages, and if they modify same thing [e.g., gain] then the initial velocity gets superseded by pressure within some milliseconds anyway. I think the classic way to play MPE is to think of it as using pressure to create your envelopes. (I'm sure you could get a more gradual and even fade in by disregarding pressure: set a slow attack envelope -- instead of immediate -- and trigger it to rise to the velocity in the Note On message. But that's essentially a form of automation. and MPE is more about performative expression.)

    Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the Baby Audio issue. But whatever it is I don't see how it could be caused by somehow supporting velocity, but not supporting per-note (MPE) velocity.

    I mean, with Atoms you have no control over fade in time. Playing say a pad sound with a regular keyboard and with an mpe keyboard like the Roli Seaboard will be exactly the same experience. There is no expression. Velocity does control note loudness but makes no difference to attack. You know what I mean?

    Not exactly sure what you mean, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with not supporting MPE velocity. Seems more like a problem with the synth's built in ADSR settings conflicting with what the controller is sending. If you set all ADSR settings to immediate, you should be able to control the envelope with pressure from your controller. You should definitely be able to do a fade-in. Velocity will affect things to tiny degree for the initial milliseconds of each note on, but generally be unnoticeable because velocity value will be similar to pressure values.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @Gavinski said:

    @RedSkyLullaby said:
    Volt I think is full MPE

    I also just tried Volt, again for the first time in years. Can’t see how to assign Note Off Velocity, do you (or anyone) know? Don’t think there is a manual for this, there wasn’t a few years ago.

    As far as I know let you assign release velocity as a modulator.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @RedSkyLullaby said:
    Volt I think is full MPE

    I also just tried Volt, again for the first time in years. Can’t see how to assign Note Off Velocity, do you (or anyone) know? Don’t think there is a manual for this, there wasn’t a few years ago.

    As far as I know let you assign release velocity as a modulator.

    I don't really remember how to assign CCs in his apps apart from the midi learn and it's difficult to map a parameter like that with midi learn, when I tried it thought I was mapping cc74

  • UprightmusicUprightmusic

    @Gavinski said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @RedSkyLullaby said:
    Volt I think is full MPE

    I also just tried Volt, again for the first time in years. Can’t see how to assign Note Off Velocity, do you (or anyone) know? Don’t think there is a manual for this, there wasn’t a few years ago.

    As far as I know let you assign release velocity as a modulator.

    I don't really remember how to assign CCs in his apps apart from the midi learn and it's difficult to map a parameter like that with midi learn, when I tried it thought I was mapping cc74

    I think this conversation kind of hints that there is a desire for instruments that are centered around MPE on iOS. Though the majority of music makers probably aren’t quite interested yet. Personally I’d love to see ROLI bring their desktop apps to the iPad. That would be a great solution

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @hes said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @hes said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @hes said:

    @Pxlhg said:

    @Gavinski said:
    Which MPE instruments on iOS allow you to assign and control all 5 MPE parameters, or at least 4? To clarify, I mean:

    1. Pitch Bend (X-axis): Per-note pitch control for slides or vibrato.
    2. Timbre (Y-axis): Modulating tone or texture, like filter cutoff or wavetable position.
    3. Pressure (Z-axis): Pressure after striking a note, often controlling dynamics or modulation.
    4. Velocity: Initial note attack or volume based on how hard you strike.
    5. Release Velocity: How quickly you release a note, shaping the sound’s tail.

    Many apps partially support MPE, but I want to compile a list of those that allow full assignment of all 5 parameters—or at least 4. Release velocity, in particular, is rare to find as an assignable parameter.

    Are you saying those expensive single instrument SWAM apps does not, not even 4 by your list standard. That is very disappointing, I don't have a proper MPE controller but when I do "browse and dream" -- I usually connect my controller to SWAM and mpe' the shit out of it (I mean, it is, still a dream).

    It's a very good point to bring up Gavin.

    The SWAM apps are mostly monophonic (except SWAM string instruments allow two notes?), so even though they allow lots of expression modulation they are not really MPE at all. It's not a failing of theirs; it's just that monophonic instruments can't be MPE. I think just about any monophonic synth can be made to respond to all five of the MPE parameters, assuming they are sent to the synth.

    The key thing about MPE is that it's Midi Polyphonic Expression, which allows for multiple notes to be played at the same time, while each note is modulated independently of the others. For example, different pitch bends can be applied to each note, or the notes can have different filter cutoffs, or change dynamics differently. On ordinary polyphonic synths that are not MPE, the synth applies a single pitch bend, filter cutoff, etc. to all notes being played at the same time.

    Not sure how the SWAM apps respond to release velocity, but that's kind of a poor sister of the first four modulations, not many situations (or instruments) where it makes sense to do much with release velocity, which like velocity is just a single instantaneous value for each note, not something that allows you to modify a note's expression over time. In most cases with MPE, I think the first three parameters (pitch bend, timbre, and pressure) are by far most important. (Velocity, of course, is also important, but since most[?] non-MPE polyphonic synths already allow simultaneous notes to have different velocities, you don't really gain anything with respect to velocity modulation when you move to MPE.)

    Regarding SWAM apps, I would say that even though they aren't MPE because they're monophonic, they are still among the most satisfying apps to use from a good MPE controller, which will have a natural-feeling way to modify the parameters associated with the x, y, and z axes.

    Thnx Hes. I agree that Release Velocity is not a very important one, though it is nice to have. MPE Velocity, on the other hand, is a super important one. Baby Audio Atoms doesn't have it the lack of it is horrible imo. Note-on velocity allows you to gradually fade in a note when playing, This is similar to the Pressure parameter but is different, as it's about the attack portion only, whereas pressure is similar to aftertouch.

    Regarding velocity, I was mostly just suggesting that MPE support of per-note-velocity isn't especially exciting or groundbreaking, because per-note velocity is already present in many/most polyphonic synths. The main thing added by MPE is the support for a continuous stream of per-note modulations on x/y/z axes.

    That sounds strange with Baby Audio Atoms, and also like it's something specific to that synth, or a problem with the controller.

    It's not possible to have a Note On message without a velocity (has to be there and be from 0 to 127), so I'm not clear what you mean by it not being supported. You mean with Baby Audio Atoms the note velocities aren't independent?

    With a decent controller there is no problem creating a gradual fade in using pressure, whether MPE or not. Initial velocity will be there in the Note On message, presumably quite low just like the values in the pressure messages, and if they modify same thing [e.g., gain] then the initial velocity gets superseded by pressure within some milliseconds anyway. I think the classic way to play MPE is to think of it as using pressure to create your envelopes. (I'm sure you could get a more gradual and even fade in by disregarding pressure: set a slow attack envelope -- instead of immediate -- and trigger it to rise to the velocity in the Note On message. But that's essentially a form of automation. and MPE is more about performative expression.)

    Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the Baby Audio issue. But whatever it is I don't see how it could be caused by somehow supporting velocity, but not supporting per-note (MPE) velocity.

    I mean, with Atoms you have no control over fade in time. Playing say a pad sound with a regular keyboard and with an mpe keyboard like the Roli Seaboard will be exactly the same experience. There is no expression. Velocity does control note loudness but makes no difference to attack. You know what I mean?

    Not exactly sure what you mean, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with not supporting MPE velocity. Seems more like a problem with the synth's built in ADSR settings conflicting with what the controller is sending. If you set all ADSR settings to immediate, you should be able to control the envelope with pressure from your controller. You should definitely be able to do a fade-in. Velocity will affect things to tiny degree for the initial milliseconds of each note on, but generally be unnoticeable because velocity value will be similar to pressure values.

    You would think that’s how it should work, yes. All I can say is that it doesn’t. If I put attack on the init patch, for example, to zero, I cannot get any fade in whatsoever way I play my MPE controller. The only way I can get a gradual attack is to actually adjust the attack knob on the synth. It’s a bad MPE implementation. I don’t know what they need to do to fix it or whether they can. Others who have it should be able to confirm that it works as I described.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @Gavinski said:

    @hes said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @hes said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @hes said:

    @Pxlhg said:

    @Gavinski said:
    Which MPE instruments on iOS allow you to assign and control all 5 MPE parameters, or at least 4? To clarify, I mean:

    1.  Pitch Bend (X-axis): Per-note pitch control for slides or vibrato.
2.  Timbre (Y-axis): Modulating tone or texture, like filter cutoff or wavetable position.
3.  Pressure (Z-axis): Pressure after striking a note, often controlling dynamics or modulation.
4.  Velocity: Initial note attack or volume based on how hard you strike.
5.  Release Velocity: How quickly you release a note, shaping the sound’s tail.

    Many apps partially support MPE, but I want to compile a list of those that allow full assignment of all 5 parameters—or at least 4. Release velocity, in particular, is rare to find as an assignable parameter.

    Are you saying those expensive single instrument SWAM apps does not, not even 4 by your list standard. That is very disappointing, I don't have a proper MPE controller but when I do "browse and dream" -- I usually connect my controller to SWAM and mpe' the shit out of it (I mean, it is, still a dream).

    It's a very good point to bring up Gavin.

    The SWAM apps are mostly monophonic (except SWAM string instruments allow two notes?), so even though they allow lots of expression modulation they are not really MPE at all. It's not a failing of theirs; it's just that monophonic instruments can't be MPE. I think just about any monophonic synth can be made to respond to all five of the MPE parameters, assuming they are sent to the synth.

    The key thing about MPE is that it's Midi Polyphonic Expression, which allows for multiple notes to be played at the same time, while each note is modulated independently of the others. For example, different pitch bends can be applied to each note, or the notes can have different filter cutoffs, or change dynamics differently. On ordinary polyphonic synths that are not MPE, the synth applies a single pitch bend, filter cutoff, etc. to all notes being played at the same time.

    Not sure how the SWAM apps respond to release velocity, but that's kind of a poor sister of the first four modulations, not many situations (or instruments) where it makes sense to do much with release velocity, which like velocity is just a single instantaneous value for each note, not something that allows you to modify a note's expression over time. In most cases with MPE, I think the first three parameters (pitch bend, timbre, and pressure) are by far most important. (Velocity, of course, is also important, but since most[?] non-MPE polyphonic synths already allow simultaneous notes to have different velocities, you don't really gain anything with respect to velocity modulation when you move to MPE.)

    Regarding SWAM apps, I would say that even though they aren't MPE because they're monophonic, they are still among the most satisfying apps to use from a good MPE controller, which will have a natural-feeling way to modify the parameters associated with the x, y, and z axes.

    Thnx Hes. I agree that Release Velocity is not a very important one, though it is nice to have. MPE Velocity, on the other hand, is a super important one. Baby Audio Atoms doesn't have it the lack of it is horrible imo. Note-on velocity allows you to gradually fade in a note when playing, This is similar to the Pressure parameter but is different, as it's about the attack portion only, whereas pressure is similar to aftertouch.

    Regarding velocity, I was mostly just suggesting that MPE support of per-note-velocity isn't especially exciting or groundbreaking, because per-note velocity is already present in many/most polyphonic synths. The main thing added by MPE is the support for a continuous stream of per-note modulations on x/y/z axes.

    That sounds strange with Baby Audio Atoms, and also like it's something specific to that synth, or a problem with the controller.

    It's not possible to have a Note On message without a velocity (has to be there and be from 0 to 127), so I'm not clear what you mean by it not being supported. You mean with Baby Audio Atoms the note velocities aren't independent?

    With a decent controller there is no problem creating a gradual fade in using pressure, whether MPE or not. Initial velocity will be there in the Note On message, presumably quite low just like the values in the pressure messages, and if they modify same thing [e.g., gain] then the initial velocity gets superseded by pressure within some milliseconds anyway. I think the classic way to play MPE is to think of it as using pressure to create your envelopes. (I'm sure you could get a more gradual and even fade in by disregarding pressure: set a slow attack envelope -- instead of immediate -- and trigger it to rise to the velocity in the Note On message. But that's essentially a form of automation. and MPE is more about performative expression.)

    Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the Baby Audio issue. But whatever it is I don't see how it could be caused by somehow supporting velocity, but not supporting per-note (MPE) velocity.

    I mean, with Atoms you have no control over fade in time. Playing say a pad sound with a regular keyboard and with an mpe keyboard like the Roli Seaboard will be exactly the same experience. There is no expression. Velocity does control note loudness but makes no difference to attack. You know what I mean?

    Not exactly sure what you mean, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with not supporting MPE velocity. Seems more like a problem with the synth's built in ADSR settings conflicting with what the controller is sending. If you set all ADSR settings to immediate, you should be able to control the envelope with pressure from your controller. You should definitely be able to do a fade-in. Velocity will affect things to tiny degree for the initial milliseconds of each note on, but generally be unnoticeable because velocity value will be similar to pressure values.

    You would think that’s how it should work, yes. All I can say is that it doesn’t. If I put attack on the init patch, for example, to zero, I cannot get any fade in whatsoever way I play my MPE controller. The only way I can get a gradual attack is to actually adjust the attack knob on the synth. It’s a bad MPE implementation. I don’t know what they need to do to fix it or whether they can. Others who have it should be able to confirm that it works as I described.

    Not to mention btw, that it is such a bad mpe implementation that it can't even handle more than a semitone of pitchbend! Literally the worst mpe implementation I have yet come across

  • AlfredAlfred

    NoteOff velocity is for the release phase of the envelope. So it is naturaly meant for the release time. NoteOn velocity is applied to the filter and amplifier levels. While aftertouch is applied to the envelope sustain level, or summed with the note velocity.
    The mpe protocol was developed to work on existing multi timbral synths.
    Geo synth was there in the beginning of all this before roli ran with it.
    There are just a very few synths that react to noteOff velocity.
    Modern synths advertized as mpe compatible are just that. They have a pitchbend range up to 48 up and 48 down. Usefull for a 4 octave mpe controller. Swam is great to play on seaboard or osmose. Very expressive. The per note pitchbend is the main new feature of mpe. Mostly used for vibrato. Also this note bending gives it its natural acoustic feel of imperfection.
    I prefer the osmose for its keyboard allthough the slide or y is like a second phase of the aftertouch, this is better then the sliding due to friction.
    Midi 2.0 has also kind of mpe capability with per note pitchbend, a bit like polyphonic aftertouch.
    Woodsynth is a nice mpe synth with midi 2.0 capability.

  • tyslothrop1tyslothrop1

    I think DRC could have all 5 dimensions. I don't have a controller that sends release velocity, so I can't check properly.

    If MPE is activated you can set pitchbend range to 48, assign cc74 under keyboard settings mod wheel, aftertouch also. And the envelopes have a depth control for A.vel and R.vel.

  • GavinskiGavinski
    edited January 8

    @tyslothrop1 said:
    I think DRC could have all 5 dimensions. I don't have a controller that sends release velocity, so I can't check properly.

    If MPE is activated you can set pitchbend range to 48, assign cc74 under keyboard settings mod wheel, aftertouch also. And the envelopes have a depth control for A.vel and R.vel.

    Thanks - I just tested the A vel and R vel, though, and the Release velocity knob here does not work in that MPE release way described in my first post. Note what the manual says about it:

    “R. VEL - This knob allows you to relate the velocity (force) with which you press a key to the RELEASE time. At mid position it does nothing. Turning it clockwise increases RELEASE time as velocity increases. Turning anti-clockwise decreases RELEASE time as velocity increases.”

    This is just related to the general velocity you play at, and is not in any way related to MPE, you could use this with any keyboard. Eg. With the knob clockwise, notes with high velocity will have a long release time. It’s also not related to the speed you take your finger off the keyboard, so is not satisfying Point 5 in my list above. Thanks though. So so far Megalit seems to be the only iOS synth offering MPE note release time as an assignable mod source, unless there’s another one someone mentioned that I missed. Unfortunately I can’t check whether this works in Megalit though, as the app is freezing like crazy on me both in AUv3 and standalone, totally unusable. I’ve emailed Bleass.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @Tentype said:
    Tera pro

    Does Tera Pro allow you to use Release Velocity as a mod source? I might be wrong but I don’t think it does. If it does, please let me know how to assign it, thnx

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @ejacul337 said:
    Good question, i thought Bricks had all 5, but it does not.

    What’s ‘Bricks’? Cheers

  • TentypeTentype

    @Gavinski said:

    @Tentype said:
    Tera pro

    Does Tera Pro allow you to use Release Velocity as a mod source? I might be wrong but I don’t think it does. If it does, please let me know how to assign it, thnx

    In Tera pro you assign MPE values as modulators (the red ovals at the bottom of modules). Release velocity is called Note off velocity in Tera pro.

  • TentypeTentype

    Moog Mariana has all 5 values.

    Agonizer has 4, no release

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @Tentype said:
    Moog Mariana has all 5 values.

    Agonizer has 4, no release

    Thnx for your input, very helpful!

  • AndyHoneyboneAndyHoneybone

    Looked at DRC with my Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S61 MkII that does have regular MIDI note off velocity (aka release velocity or lift). Had come to same conclusion as you @gavinski from the manual and the testing confirmed. The R. vel control modulates EG release from note on velocity.

    Getting a little OT now but some interesting threads on Modartt forum regarding note off velocity. Crude summary - while it is used in their physical models to modulate damper behaviour, they have used alternatives as few keyboards support the message, it is difficult to control for the player and the effect is extremely subtle.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @AndyHoneybone said:
    Looked at DRC with my Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S61 MkII that does have regular MIDI note off velocity (aka release velocity or lift). Had come to same conclusion as you @gavinski from the manual and the testing confirmed. The R. vel control modulates EG release from note on velocity.

    Getting a little OT now but some interesting threads on Modartt forum regarding note off velocity. Crude summary - while it is used in their physical models to modulate damper behaviour, they have used alternatives as few keyboards support the message, it is difficult to control for the player and the effect is extremely subtle.

    Hi Andy! Interesting regarding Pianoteq. Note off velocity doesn't have to be subtle mind you. If the app allows you to assign it to anything you can get very creative with it. That's what's nice about Megalit, for example, you have a lot of options for what to assign it to and can modulate weird things like pitch and panning.

  • TentypeTentype

    Xinematix has all 5

  • 0tolerance4silence0tolerance4silence

    FWIW
    Be mindful that simply allowing these modulators to be assigned won’t necessarily make an instrument MPE compatible - for that it has to be able to sort out and handle voice/midi channel.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @0tolerance4silence said:
    FWIW
    Be mindful that simply allowing these modulators to be assigned won’t necessarily make an instrument MPE compatible - for that it has to be able to sort out and handle voice/midi channel.

    Oh sure. Is there anything that does make all 5 assignable but which is not actually MPE tho? I'd be surprised if there were

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