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Art Vs Business
I hope we can have a civil discussion about this.
This topic has arisen from something that happened at this forum today in more than one thread. I was critiquing a couple of songs on their production based on what I consider norms in the music business and not so much just for art's sake. I felt changes were warranted and another member insisted that the songs remain as they are and that too much of today's music sounds like it was made by machines. There may be something to that and thus the point of this thread.
The reality is in music, there is the art side of things and there is the business side of things. Each of us has to decide which side they want to be on or possibly in the middle if they can force themselves to "compromise". Many people can't or refuse to. And that's fine. But if that's the case. AND you want to have a serious career in the music business, you are fighting an uphill battle.
I will illustrate this with 2 examples.
The first track is one I did years ago simply for the sake of my "art." It is a bloody train wreck of a mix and the musical structure, well, there basically is none.
Here it is. It's called "Machine Wars" I didn't upload this track, which is over 10 years old, until today because the last thing I wanted was for anybody to hear it.
The second track is one that was released by the organization "Music For World Peace" They have very strict requirements for commercial release on their label and not many people meet them. I happen to have more songs released by this label than anyone else.
Here is "Great Will Be Their Peace"
As a bonus, here is another track released by Music For World Peace
No doubt there will be people who love the first track and hate the last 2 for more reasons than I care to get into. And that's fine. But if all I ever did in my life was stuff like "Machine Wars" I would have never made it in this business. You can take that to the bank. I have 7 songs released by this label. That doesn't count all the tracks they rejected. It's a tough business.
Point is, you can do art or you can make money. Rarely, especially today, can you do both.
Comments
I do both. I make money doing freelance projects for clients (mostly rappers looking for beats and remixes, but I plan to expand to making music for small-time videogames in 2026) as well as performing piano live, and that in turn helps me to afford the tools I need, the courses I need to learn things I'm unfamiliar with such as the aforementioned making music for videogames, and to be able to make art music on the side in my spare time.
That said, the last thing any musician wants to hear is "your music hurts my ears". That's a bit insulting if you ask me. You obviously have no knowledge of the genres you're commenting on (where dynamics are preferred to overprocessed masters) and prefer to create more radio-friendly music. Radio-friendly music is fine. I produce that too, no sweat. But Dark Ambient is a vibrant-but-brooding dynamic genre of music. And it's free from the rules of your standard song form, free from the rules of "what sounds pleasing", etc. Try to do your research before commenting on genres you're unfamiliar with.
Okay, point taken, I will no longer comment on genres I am unfamiliar with or just post "I listened to your track. Good luck with it." I at least want to give people the courtesy of listening to their music, something a lot of people here don't do. Of course, that's true at most forums. Many people post their material and make no effort to listen to the music of others. In case you haven't noticed, I listen to every track posted here because I know what it's like to be ignored. But if my comments aren't appreciated or unwanted, fine. I can simply not comment on the tracks I have a problem with. Apparently this is one of those forums where we just pat everybody on the back and say "Great job!"
Message received.
Okay, to explain further, there is a right way of going about constructive critique, and a wrong way of going about said task. You don't say "this song hurts my ears, it made me throw off my headphones". Instead, one should say something like, "Overall, this piece is good. This one section at such-and-such time sounded a little harsh, and I'd suspect it'd flow better if you softened it just a little. That's just my opinion, so grain of salt please." We don't always have to pat everyone on the back, but we are about building up a community rather than letting it crumble with mindless insults.
^^^
What Jim said.
Thats a fair assessment. Music isn’t always meant to be inoffensive. Even commercially made music isn’t always “safe”. And people will always want to hear something unique and different, even if it’s challenging.
Interesting! Would love to hear your take on something that sits between the first track and the other two. Could be a fascinating collision.
Exactly mate.
There are times I love hearing something unique, different, and challenging, which is why I love Svetlovska's incredible pieces of Ambient. I hope someday to reach that level with my own Ambient works.
Then again, there are times I just want to listen to Abba, which to me is about as safe as it gets. 😂
Actually, that is originally what I said (if you go to the thread in question and read my initial comment) but then another member basically said I was wrong and not everything has to sound like it was made by a machine. That's when I started getting a little more descriptive. Maybe I should have just dropped it. But I honestly felt I was helping. But if that's the way they want the music to sound, so be it. I'm not God. I don't decide what is and what isn't acceptable. And as far as researching a genre before commenting on it, when I click the play button on a track, I have no idea what I'm going to hear until it actually starts playing.
So in the future, it what I hear playing I don't like, I'll simply turn it off and move on. The last thing I want to do is ruffle any feathers because I don't "understand" a genre.
And with that, I'm going to work on my next song. Have a nice day.
Okay, good luck, lol.
I want to read this thread, I really do, but there’s just too many words
Short version - there are lots of ways of doing things.
So many genres.
So little time.
I just tag all my “stuff” as Paulieworld.
Problem solved.
Works for me.
Me too.
And it works for me too. Everybody should do whatever they want to do. I wanted to make money in the music business so that was my goal. I set out to achieve it and I did. That doesn't make me right and others wrong. It's just one path I took.
And yeah, every once in a while I do something that is just plain stupid sounding because I feel like it. I do it with the understanding that very few people, if anybody, will like it.
We all make our choices in life. It's what makes life interesting.
Boy this is a tricky one…
At the end of the day everybody is different, music is different, no rights no wrongs…
People just have to be tolerant and recognise that what one person likes the next person might hate and that’s ok.
Personally I preferred the first track (not saying I liked it) but certainly wasn’t keen on the second track.
Re recording levels , again this is fairly subjective. I’m sure that Wagner, Saint Saens, Ives and Bartok would have happily cranked up the volumes to 11 if they could have done.
Equally I’m happy to try and produce tracks that mimic the background levels of nature at around the 30db level or lower.
Finally , re the art or money question, I’ll take art every time !
I do stupid things all the time. Literally. It’s fun.
I’m an old guy and, as John Houseman famously said… He earned it.
I use a simple algorhythm when commenting here:
For a 1st comment I find something to praise
I tend to repeat this step many times
Eventually, after building trust by providing encouragement and recognizing real strenghs, I slip in something I think might make my listening experience better. Sometimes the creator accepts the request to change and I tend to take credit for the improvement without doing so publically.
The main benefit of this approach is realized when I post here… people I have encouraged return the favor.
Those that just tell me what they want to hear changed go on a list of people I should just ignore.
That list is really short… it got shorter when those critics as they are called just stopped visiting.
Sometimes a creative will ask for suggestions to improve… I ignore the right to become critical. There are billions of people to criticize our work and 99.9% actually could not be paid to listen.
Anyone that broke through to some commercial success will find us a community of people that tend towards accepting substandard work that can’t be sold and I think: well at least we can get some support and encouragement here.
The real secret of evaluating art is to remain open to the possibility that what we value might be subject to change and eventually linked to a relationship based on experiences over years.
Sometimes I scan the creations just seeking work without comments and I make a comment to see if it might trigger more comments.
Artists that get no comments tend to stop trying. That’s the worst reaction… well, short of getting a list of changes that are needed.
Even professionals get “notes” from suits but at least they have an audience. Many here do not.
I get what you're saying. I will now adapt this approach from now on. I was brought up in a world and during a time when you let people know when something they did was substandard because we all wanted to truly improve. I can't even begin to tell you how much harsh criticism my music has gotten over the years.
Some of the most memorable comments.
"You have absolutely no talent. You have no clue about song structure and your recordings are terrible. Either go get yourself an education or do something else with your life."
"When are you going to get off the merry-go-round? Your songs are just one long loop."
"For the love of God, please don't sing."
Those were the kinds of comments that made me a better musician and writer. They are the reason why I am now having success in this business.
I realize I have to leave that mindset back in the 70s and 80s where they belong and become a kinder and gentler member.
I don't need to be hit over the head more than once.
My apologies if I offended anyone. It wasn't my intention.
Flashbacks to the 2000s to early 2010s for me as it were. I'm a bit buzzed after a post-shift drink, so I'm just gonna speak my mind (my apologies to the mods here). I've dealt with meanspirited pieces of pig dung like that in the past, and you best believe I used to cuss out every last one of them online for making personal digs at me instead of keeping things constructive. Let's just say these "stock forum musicians" as I call them were lucky they hid behind a keyboard and didn't say what they said to me in person.
(One time at uni, some random classmate actually did make a horrible comment about my music to my face, and I shoved him into a wall, cussed him out and threatened him. He soon dropped out of music production class shortly thereafter.)
I will say, you do come across as someone with good intentions. What you said to Svetlovska wasn't nearly as horrid as what others have said to you and me. But, remember, it's best to help nurture talent than tear it down.
Even if that wasn't your intention.
Point taken. It won't happen again. As my mother, God rest her soul, used to say, "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all."
All good mate. Now, back to my music dungeon I go. I'm feeling some sort of Ambient ish tonight.
Can't wait to hear it.
Thanks buddy. That means a lot to me.
This could become a simple “culture” thing - someone explicitly looking for criticism could say so in their initial posting of a track or say they just made it to make it.
I’ll say, I started out wanting to do something to make money off of making and producing music, put it on the back burner as a hobby, but now I’m starting to approach it with a lens of “I think I could make some income off this”. And for that I’d personally welcome input from most any angle as long as it’s constructive.
If anyone wants to critique a live Discord bard musician idea hmu haha
I see two topics in this thread:
1. Art for money
2. One persons music is another persons noise. This goes to @GeoTony comment.
Art for money: in my experience they are mutually exclusive. I spent 20 years as a full time performing musician playing other people’s music the way they wanted me to play it. It drained my soul to the point where I couldn’t even listen to music for almost another 20 years. Now I make music that I want to hear. Art for arts sake. I don’t know what genre it is and, outside of idle curiosity, I don’t care. If others like it, even just 1 or 2 people, it keeps me going. I feel validated just if people listen to it. Criticism on the basis of marketability is irrelevant to art. While money is of course nice, it’s not a factor. To bring money in is to cede creativity to others. A long time ago I was struggling openly here with trying to please more people. I received a pearl of wisdom, might have been from @McD, that worrying about that was letting the audience write the piece. I have never forgotten that.
One persons music is another persons noise. For me, the beauty and value of this forum is learning to appreciate and even like stuff that in the past I would have considered noise. It about actively looking for and finding the music in the noise. I am in debt to so many of the contributors here who have exponentially expanded my personal definition of what music is.
Interesting thread. I agree with @pedro , there are a lot of words. 🙂
Another log on the fire…
I gave up on participating in the music “business” or music “industry “ long ago. To me music is mainly an activity I enjoy doing. The reward comes in the activity, not from money, listens or others’ opinions. Of course I like hearing appreciation but that’s not what motivates me to sit in front of the daw.
@wagtunes , I get your point about the value of constructive criticism. In theory I’m a proponent too. In practice though it can be tough to do well especially in a public forum.
I feel that there are so many different forms of musical expression that critiquing music becomes fraught. Adding to that the difficulty is the fact that people’s musical likes are so subjective. What sounds great to me might sound like rubbish to others. FWIW, I tend to not review music in genres I don’t prefer listening to.
I’ve really grown to appreciate the variety of music I hear on places like here and kvr. There’s so much creative stuff put out there mainly for the love of doing it.
Does playing for weed count? Years ago I played in a Fleetwood Mac tribute. I never much cared for their music, but Stevie Nicks was nice to look at. The music wasn’t very challenging, but we had a regular following that always showed up for our gigs. It was more of a social thing, something to do on weekends. At the end of the gig, I would get a bag of weed. I have long since given up that stuff. It’s legal where I live, but it’s just too strong. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Weed has gotten stronger over the years to be honest. Once it became legal in Wisconsin, I toyed with it a little bit during the day, hoping it'd boost my productivity. I think I ended up taking the wrong strain, because it made me dumber and less productive. Now I take it at night as a sleeping aid instead of any over-the-counter pills. 😂
Paid in other ways? I have lost count in the ways I have been paid in something other than money for gigs in the past. Beer or food are probably the top ones, but it has also included (things that immediately come to mind) weed, sex, a pair of headphones, and getting other gigs from it (not necessarily music). Haven’t played in bands for years, but more likely to have had unusual payments from DJ gigs, putting in sound or lighting rigs, running the board, or managing the technology aspects of gigs in general. I have been much more likely to have been paid in cash (or even salaried) for most of the latter items in general though.