Discussion on groove and feel

richardyot

This post is as much for my own edification as anything else, I'm still very much a noob (especially when it comes to rhythm) so I am interested in what makes a good groove.

One of the things that seems to get toes tapping is when the beat doesn't always fall on the grid, but with the odd beat just slightly late or behind the beat.

I built a simple backbeat pattern in Gadget with all the beats quantized to the grid (see image 1). Then I took the first snare hit (on measure 2 of the bar) and shifted it very slightly to the right. Gadget's grid goes down to 16ths, and I moved the beat about a quarter of that, so about 1/64th.

I did the same with the kick drum on measure 3, and the high hats on every other 8th note (image 2).

The result is that the loop sounds more human (to me at least), less machine-like and you can tap your foot along to it more.

Obviously playing behind the beat is a well-known thing (especially for drummers), but I'm curious how many people who use piano rolls ever use these kinds of techniques? What do people think, and how much further can this be taken?

I've uploaded an example, the first 4 bars are behind the beat, and the last 4 bars are right on the grid, it's subtle but you can definitely hear the change of feel:

Anyway, I'm very interested to hear anyone's opinions on feel and groove in general, it doesn't have to be about playing behind the beat, but any discussion on what makes a good groove would be cool.

JohnnyGoodyear

JG sits quietly at the back expecting to learn things

richardyot

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
JG sits quietly at the back expecting to learn things

richardyot also quietly shuffles to the back, takes a seat next to JG

funjunkie27

The JGY row is filling quickly. Anyone bring popcorn?

Moderndaycompiler

I have this bookmarked. A good read related to this topic.

http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?2094

for a completely different look at rythm I recommend Oliver Messiean who looked at nature for rhythmic patterns.

http://www.robertkelleyphd.com/messiaen.htm

Martygras

Okay, I'll bite with the first tidbit. As a drummer, one of the most difficult techniques is hitting the hi-hat consistently, not only on (or very close to the beat) but in how hard it is hit. For a hi-hat, even the slightest change in velocity or even where you are hitting the hi-hat will give widely varying tones and volumes. So what I'm really trying to say is, dynamics are almost never static. If you look at a real hi-hat track, none of the peaks are at the same level. Close but not the same.

Tidbit #2: There's also a tendency for drummers to pulse with the groove. Hi-hats are still a good example here. It's hard to explain, but if you listen to a groove one time through the pattern you will hear an emphasis dynamically early on and the rest will wane in velocity until it comes around again and there's that pulse starting over again. There's probably a tiny bit of rushing the beat as it comes around again too. We can't help it. It's the whole reason for a groove is to "get down in it" so to speak.

richardyot

@Martygras good to have a drummer's perspective

I would agree that dynamics are very important, probably a whole subject to themselves, and definitely another pitfall of programming rhythms rather than performing. As for the rush on the beat as it comes around again (presumably on the first beat of the bar), would you say that's desirable? When I was messing in Gadget I tried placing some beats ahead and it didn't really sound good, behind seems to sound a lot better to me.

Tarekith

I was just coming to say the same thing about dynamics, often they have just as much impact as the timing does in terms of how lively (or relaxed) a pattern feels.

Also, rushing the beat works great, you don't always have to pull notes back. A few high hats placed a bit early can add a lot of energy and often make a piece feel faster than it really is.

Martygras

Yeah, I think for the "one" it works as a little late, but I notice there's more rushing going on than that playing behind the beat thing in general. One thing I didn't get into was hi-hat tension. The foot pedal is also always varying in pressure which changes the pitch and to a lesser extent the duration of the splash or whatever you wanna call it.

NoiseHorse

All you guys in the back row pipe down! I'm taking notes and I can't hear what they're saying.

JohnnyGoodyear

Igneous1

Try being in a band with a less than stellar drummer, it brings a whole new meaning to 'feel'

asnor

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
JG sits quietly at the back expecting to learn things

If ya wanna learn, ya gotta sit up front! :-)

supadom

Groove is everywhere apart from that 'less than stellar drummer'.

Marcel

richardyot

I just tried to dissect the beat to Honky Tonk Women, seeing as it has a very loose feel. The screengrabs show what it looks like in Abu Dhabi, and then my attempt to recreate it in Bilbao. The second and third snare hits definitely don't ft on the grid, they're behind the beat, and I guess that's why it has that laid back funky feel to it.

asnor

RedSkyLullaby

I' m bit lazy and tend to just use "swing" function in apps that have it. Altering the velocity of hits of same instrument and sounds that cut each other off (like open and closed hi hat) also helps I think

asnor

ultimately you gotta feel it, so just tweak until it feels right

Matt_Fletcher_2000

Other tricks are:

• using ghost hits and flams (low velocity hits just before or after the main hit)
• automating pitch on hi hats
• playing percussion live in drum jam and recording midi into Gadget - drum jam varies velocity, as well as hits (but you control this through touch - it's not random) and also adds swing if you want. I find I can really start to get a 'feel' going over a basic kick / snare pattern I've already programmed in.
• using a different sample for some different hits
• using a few 32nd hits

By the way, Richard, you can actually set the gadget grid all the way up to 64ths if you want

Bluepunk

While serving in the Army I did a few years in a Corps Marching Band. My old Trumpet Major told us drummers NOT to worry about hitting the main beat (thats the easy bit he said) but instead concentrate on what we did with the other stick. He said it was the "air beat" or "upbeat" that played a huge part in creating the groove he wanted for a particular song. Now this was a while back but I'm sure it still applies.

Basically if you have 8 hi hat beats, leave all the prominant, dominant beats & focus on the ones left in between them. So if the Bass drum hits on beats 1 & 5 & the Snare on beats 3 & 7. What's left are the up beats, hi hat beats 2,4,6 & 8. These you could play around with accents (velocity I suppose). These up beats are supposed to be consistent throughout to keep the groove grooving.

I haven't got my headphones with me but by the sound of your hi hat beats @richardyot I think you've already got an understanding of this "upbeat groove thang"! I'm sure I can hear increased hats on at least beats 2 & 4 already.

Peanutcram

Here is a link someone posted earlier on this forum that I found very useful:

http://www.attackmagazine.com/technique/

Thanks to the original poster.

My lazy approach is the randomize button in DM1. It's quite versatile.

supadom

Interesting that when it comes to groove most of people think of drums. This couldn't be further from the truth for me. Especially with the advances in electronic sound sculpting.

Macao95

Dat strumming.

richardyot

@supadom said:
Interesting that when it comes to groove most of people think of drums. This couldn't be further from the truth for me. Especially with the advances in electronic sound sculpting.

I think drums are the foundation, but the interaction between all the instruments is what makes the groove. Honky Tonk Women is a case in point, there's a lot of really interesting things going on in that seemingly simple intro, but the interaction between the drums, cowbell, and guitars is what makes it groove - all of the elements are essential. I would imagine that it would be a really difficult song to cover well.

richardyot

@Bluepunk said:
While serving in the Army I did a few years in a Corps Marching Band. My old Trumpet Major told us drummers NOT to worry about hitting the main beat (thats the easy bit he said) but instead concentrate on what we did with the other stick. He said it was the "air beat" or "upbeat" that played a huge part in creating the groove he wanted for a particular song. Now this was a while back but I'm sure it still applies.

I think that's pretty much the theory of the swing setting in DAWs and drum machines, but I think that a lot of really funky grooves also seem to play with the backbeat and on the main beat.

richardyot

@asnor said:
ultimately you gotta feel it, so just tweak until it feels right

I agree with that, but personally I've got a long way to go before I really understand the "feel". To truly feel it you presumably have to have a solid enough sense of rhythm to always know exactly when the beat falls when you play, so that you can deliberately vary it. My sense of rhythm isn't developed highly enough for me to do that.

So in the meantime it seems helpful to try and dissect good rhythms to understand them better, see exactly where the beat falls on the grid.

Another point to consider is that most electronic musicians will program their beats to the grid, and at most use the swing setting to change the feel. But maybe this approach is too limiting, because you can never write something like "Pick Up The Pieces" or "Honky Tonk Women" with this approach, unless you use sampled beats maybe. It might be possible to write a really funky beat in a piano roll editor, but understanding what makes a beat funky in the first place is an essential first step.

richardyot

@Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
By the way, Richard, you can actually set the gadget grid all the way up to 64ths if you want

Thanks - that's good to know for future dissections of existing beats.

Matt_Fletcher_2000

Yep. Don't forget the bass. Surely integral when it comes to groove.

The interplay between the drums and the bass, often, innit?

JohnnyGoodyear

I don't know how to do it (intellectually), but I sure know it when I feel it. Like a good virus inside.

Jocphone

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
I don't know how to do it (intellectually), but I sure know it when I feel it.

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