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SOLVED::::Percussive Effect - but Only at the Very Beginning of a Note
Hi,
Check out my SOLVED post below - with a video of Drambo using a transcient to trigger a sampler to play a percussive hit.
~~ORIGINAL~~~~~~
I want to apply a percussive fx to only the beginning of a note. Any plugins???
Might I use FAC Evolver to "trigger" something? - but trigger what?
I have some transient shaper plugins, but I don't think these don't transform the sound so much.
GOAL the initiation of a violin bow to sound something like a guitar pick. Think.... I am bowing 1/8 notes at 80BPM, and it has a feel, not the exact sound but the feel, of a guitar player playing or the "chunk" or pick sound of the guitar playing the notes, but just the very start of the notes.
Open 2 Ideas
AJ
Comments
Use it to trigger a sample. Hunt for the samples that give you the sound that you want. Any sample player (Koala, Drambo, Loopy Pro one-shots ...). Envolver can send notes, so triggering should be easy. Drambo has a transient detector built-in so Envolver isn't needed.
[edit] wait ... Looking at Envolver, I'm not sure it can send notes instead of CCs. Hold my beer ...
Triggering a sample will be more effective.
Keep in mind that you don't have to use an entire sample. You can trim out any portion of the sample that serves your purposes. All the sampler options I mention make this a breeze to do. You can use any kind of sample that has a strong "click" transient. This could be a guitar note, or maybe even preferably, a drum hit.
A sampler with round-robin or random robin, or other ways to alter the sound just a little bit between hits could be the icing on the cake for realism, but is most likely overkill for this situation.
This should be fairly easy to set up.
For low latency response and the added benefit to route note starts to a plucked sound I recommend an audio to MIDI note add with the best IMHO Guitar MIDI 2. Guitar MIDI 3 was out there in TestFlight version the last time I looked. Getting all the AUv3 hosting features and optionally MIDI out is the expensive but the code has the lowest latency which is essential for your stated purpose.
FAC Envolver does NOT detect input pitch so it can only trigger a volume envelope and the latency with that extra app requirement might make it less than snappy to your input but worth evaluating for lower cost.
Drambo-nauts will say it can do this but they rarely provide a working preset... Bit hopefully they will jump in here.
I don't agree. Envolver can have much less latency than Guitar MIDI 2 or 3 given that it doesn't have to detect pitch. The envelope can be very short, and anyway, the trigger is all that's needed. I don't see why pitch is important when all that's needed is the very beginning transient of the percussive sample to mix in with the already pitched violin sound. The real problem with Envolver is whether or not it can send notes, which would make triggering a sample easier.
I'm working on that now, as I always do if time permits.
Initial results weren't fantastic, but I was just working from a rather legato violin loop.
I couldn't get any useful results using FAC Envolver and Koala. I used mfxConver to attempt to convert Envolver's envelope to notes, but couldn't find any settings that just triggered the sample. I'm not that familiar with Envolver, but it seems to me it may not be a good solution, at least not in my hands.
Envolver can send notes.
Huh. I haven't been able to figure out how.
I like the more compact Drambo solution better though.
[edit] ok, I got it now. Just have to turn on Note Source. Thanks.
These settings will send a C4 note whenever the input volume exceeds the set THRESHOLD. FYI: It looks like a C3 to StreamByter: MIDI Note 48.
Thanks @McD.
That works well triggering one-shots in Loopy Pro or in Koala.
Yes. I suspect the OP is going to want the triggered sample to match the input put. Just adding a percussive “tap” to be added to
The input violin probably will not scratch the itch to make the violin sound more like a rhythm guitar or a plucked string.
Can Drambo do fast “pitch detection” and trigger a pizzicato violin or picked guitar App with a short reasonable latency impact?
I suspect that’s possible. I also suspect there are modules in the “Mela” suite of features that might also do this type of conversion from an audio input when deployed in the audio FX mode.
I disagree. Just to enhance a percussive attack, one doesn't need to have enough of the transient to discern a pitch, which is already coming from the violin in any case.
Nothing can do truly fast pitch detection. You have to hear enough of a sound to detect its pitch. Some apps do a great job, but there will always be some latency.
If you're trying to add percussive sound to the onset of a note, having it trigger as close to the onset of the sound as possible is more on the mark.
Yes, Drambo has a pitch detector module. I think that's the wrong approach in this case though. Detecting the transient is enough IMO.
I agree with @wim. By the time there has been enough waveform to detect pitch, the time for the transient has passed.
@vmusic if you are looking for a pick-like attack, you might want to try sampling your fingernails striking the violin top with the strings muted and triggering that.
I’d pop some noise or something more interesting into an envelope following filter that just does the transient and control the cutoff with a pedal to give another element of control…..or if I wanted it to be automatic, trigger a transient sample on a big round robin to keep it from being too samey.
Yes, round or random robin, would take things to the next level. Drambo's Flexi sampler with a sample with a bunch of slices and a randomizer would be good for that.
The lowest piano note (A0) is 27.5 Hz… so a single cycle is 1/27.5 =0.0364 or 36ms.
Middle C (C4) is 261.63Hz… ~3ms… better to capture a few cycles and detect these middle pitches.
MIDI Guitar 2 does it pretty quickly so with really efficient clever code audio gets converted to MIDI with pretty low latencies.
Roland does it with their guitar synths.
guitars maybe an ideal instrument to detect these pitch fundamentals… maybe these approaches start after detecting a transient aboiuve a threshold and start a burst of noise that resolves into a pitch after the required cycles to detect pitch.
I guess I want to hear the Drambo approach with some attack samples mixed with the input audio. Should be an interesting
Drambo project if it doesn’t exist on patchstorage already.
I provided two screen-shots of easy to set up Drambo patches if you want to experiment. I'm not pursuing the pitch detection angle, but you could try some experiments with the pitch detector module.
That could consume a few hours and improve my weak-ass Drambo knowledge. And cost me very little.
@wim Would you kindly share your Drambo Project, and I'll try it out.
The first example is only three modules. It should be easy to set up. Just load Drambo as an FX in your violin input channel, add the transient detector, then the Flexi sampler. Hook the trigger of the Flexi sampler up to the output of the transient detector. Add a mixer and add first the track audio input, then the sampler output. Finally dig around for a suitable sample. Any percussive sample should do for starters.
If you get stuck, I can post the project, but I already tore it down, so I'd have to do the same as you to set it up, then we'd both have to spend the time to export / import it.
You may need to monkey around with the threshold of the transient detector. I think you've used this module before from earlier experiments.
@wim I think I got it. I made the project in Drambo and I will post a video later.... I am trying to refine my audio sample
@wim
See the post below - I got Drambo working.... I think there's gonna be a latency with this approach. I can lower the threshold, but the problem the resonance of the note may retrigger the sample sometimes.
I do need a different sample - but I can do that.
SOLVED
OK.... I got Drambo working
Pretty interesting (if you're a violin player at least). I "think" no matter what here..... there's going to be some latency. For a second it made me think of a violin and a snare drum in a room playing together ...sorta... where there's a brick wall and a bounce off the wall.
YES - I need a better sample more of a "thud" than a distorted snare or snare rattle, but I do not think that would change the latency here.
I had one other idea: ASSUMING I play the violin notes, as in the video on every 1/8th or every 1/16th notes::: COULD I:::::: MIDI trigger the sample 1/64th beat BEFORE the note that I would play???
Thank You SO MUCH for your help on this adventure in fiddle land
The sample doesn't affect the latency unless there is silence at the start of the sample. The latency comes from the transient detection. The stronger the transient (the harder you whack the string) the sooner a transient will be detected.
You could trigger a sample using pre-programmed midi sequenced to hit just before the notes you're going to play on the violin. There's no way to make the midi trigger happen early in response to your violin playing though ... At least not until the time-travel module finally gets out of beta. It could be awhile as it's turning out to be a bit more difficult than expected.
If you’re not monitoring the violin signal, you could delay it to match the thwack.
Interesting idea.
The violin sound is what's triggering the thwack, but I guess you could send the audio to the transient detector but not to the mixer, then add a delay module fed by the audio input, and add that to the mixer instead?
That might be workable. My first thought was the latency would drive me mad. This is for live playing after all. However, I'm thinking that as long as the thwack did trigger, that would be enough to register in my mind as the note playing. It might work.
Thank you everyone for your reply.
1) I do not want latency or the delay of the triggering of the sample; I want the sample to start as soon the string starts to vibrate from the bow; at the very start of the note.... with the Drambo, using the modules Transient->Sampler it seems I'll always get a latency of some type??
I imagine trying to put other plugins in front of Drambo, like transient shapers wouldn't make any difference??
2) Having a MIDI trigger 1/64th before the beat - was just trying to pull anything out of the hat that I could try; it is not a solid idea because I really want the trigger to be the violin
3) I realize the sample isn't "causing" the latency, but I need a different sample which I can craft in Audacity, something with a little more thud than fuzz.
It seems so "tricky" to capture that violin driven start of the note, and not have any overtones or whatever trigger something by accident.
@wim I noticed when I closed my Loopy project and reopened it that the audio file in the sampler didn't load. Is that a Drambo thing? Can you save the "knowledge of" or save the loaded audio file in the sampler in a preset and have it load automatically when you select a preset?
I think it's too tough to get this to work.
Thinking about this a little more, it might be effective to duck the violin sound briefly when the sample is played. That way the thwack could come through stronger in relation to the violin sound. An AD envelope inversely applied to an amp on the violin sound might be worth trying rather than, or in addition to, the "time machine" approach.
Yes.
No.
The delay idea is worth trying. The added latency may not register like you think it will because you will hear the thud on time. It won't be like the whole note arriving 1/64th note late.
You'll still always have the transient detection delay though. No way around that.
I'd try a kick drum. Maybe trim it in the Flexi sampler if it's too boomy.
Yep. A bowed instrument is tricky to treat as a percussive instrument . You're up against physics in a big way.
Something twigs at the back of my mind about that. I think it's a Drambo/Flexi limitation. I forget the workaround.
@rs2000?
Betcha learned a few things though eh? 😉
That's worth something.
nvm @rs2000 - found it.
https://forum.beepstreet.com/discussion/3057/flexi-sample-not-saving-in-host-session
The solution (workaround) is here:
https://forum.beepstreet.com/discussion/comment/56079/#Comment_56079