Spinoff thread from “Fight/Flight (An Anti-Ice Rap Track)”

maxxpower18 · January 15

@AlexY said:

@maxxpower18 said:
Noem just said that everyone should be ready to "prove their citizenship". Now Republicans, explain to me how you're okay with this.

They know full well which ethnic and racial demographics will bear the brunt of this and which will never have to worry about it.

White people are also on the chopping block just like Renee Good. Right now it's more of ICE being Trump's Gestapo than anything to do with brown people and immigration.

AlexY · January 16

I do appreciate the solidarity of those who are putting themselves in danger for those that ICEhas been targeting. My comment was regarding the requirement that anyone going about their day and minding their own business is going to be subjected to “citizenship tests” by ICE. I might end up being wrong, but I doubt people with the “right “ phenotype are going to be subjected to this at random based on racial profiling.

Take this instance of a man who’s just pumping gas and he is being compelled to prove his citizenship (56 seconds in) and based on what kind of probable cause?

https://youtube.com/shorts/-M3z-gbY4kA?si=_AHgFUh_4V-6b0so

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTg1722kVas/?igsh=ZWVmZ3VsNTd1MnJy

https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgressiveHQ/s/mNn1sBRd9b

Again, not saying that White people won’t ever be targeted for political persecution , but I’m 99% sure it won’t be because of their race or ethnic origin, and they will almost certainly not be asked for papers. So I’m mostly just reacting to what ICE Barbie probably really means.

maxxpower18 · January 16

You're probably right, but with these lunatics it's hard to tell if they're going for a Holocaust or a civil war.

gusgranite · January 16

@NeuM said:

@gusgranite said:
It makes me wonder what will eventually cause the many Trump voters to finally turn away from him? They stuck by him when he said you can just grab women between their legs and get away with it, they stuck by him through the Epstein underage girls sex trafficing, they stuck by him when he condoned the Jan 6 violence and pardoned the offenders, they stuck by him when his nasty little militia so obviously shot someone who did not need to be killed, etc. etc. etc. It goes on and on! At what point do they scratch their heads and say, “You know what. I’m not sure about this guy leading our nation…”

It’s actually insane.

1) Although disgusting, Trump's comment to Billy Bush prior to his interview has never been used as evidence in any trial proving or disproving it. It was a rude joke as far as you or I know.

2) If you're suggesting he was personally involved in sex trafficking minors, that's defamation. No one has ever said he did anything to any of the girls there. As far as the records go, Trump never even went to Epstein's island. On the other hand, Bill Clinton and Bill Gates went there many times. And even so, neither of them has ever been charged with anything either.

3) He did not condone violence on January 6th. He told people to go there peacefully. Claims to the contrary have been proven to be lies for years now.

4) Trump's speech on Jan. 6th (full transcript link is provided, feel free to educate yourself on what was really said). In part:

We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections, but whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long time, far longer than this four-year period. We've set it on a much straighter course, a much ... I thought four more years. I thought it would be easy.

https://www.rev.com/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6

And he pardoned people because he can do that for unjust prosecutions. Did you know that Joe Biden pardoned his own son BEFORE he was even prosecuted? Now THAT is some Grade-A bullshit.

5) I have no idea what you're talking about a militia shooting someone.

I never did respond to this BS so let’s set the record straight.

“Although disgusting…” Do you have daughters? You still support him to lead men and women after he talks about women like this? You’re damn right it’s disgusting. Shame on you.
Release the files. Done.
He had every chance to tell them to go home and stand down. Respect to those police officers who bravely defended your capital that day. What a disgusting stain on American history that day will always be.
When trying to excuse Trump so often we hear, ‘but Biden did it, but Bill Clinton did it’. FIne, go and arrest them if they’re guilty, but don’t use that mealy mouthed two-wrongs excuse to avoid holding Trump accountable. It’s pathetic and a playground defence.
Google it.

NeuM · January 16

@gusgranite said:

@NeuM said:

@gusgranite said:
It makes me wonder what will eventually cause the many Trump voters to finally turn away from him? They stuck by him when he said you can just grab women between their legs and get away with it, they stuck by him through the Epstein underage girls sex trafficing, they stuck by him when he condoned the Jan 6 violence and pardoned the offenders, they stuck by him when his nasty little militia so obviously shot someone who did not need to be killed, etc. etc. etc. It goes on and on! At what point do they scratch their heads and say, “You know what. I’m not sure about this guy leading our nation…”

It’s actually insane.

1) Although disgusting, Trump's comment to Billy Bush prior to his interview has never been used as evidence in any trial proving or disproving it. It was a rude joke as far as you or I know.

2) If you're suggesting he was personally involved in sex trafficking minors, that's defamation. No one has ever said he did anything to any of the girls there. As far as the records go, Trump never even went to Epstein's island. On the other hand, Bill Clinton and Bill Gates went there many times. And even so, neither of them has ever been charged with anything either.

3) He did not condone violence on January 6th. He told people to go there peacefully. Claims to the contrary have been proven to be lies for years now.

4) Trump's speech on Jan. 6th (full transcript link is provided, feel free to educate yourself on what was really said). In part:

We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections, but whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long time, far longer than this four-year period. We've set it on a much straighter course, a much ... I thought four more years. I thought it would be easy.

https://www.rev.com/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6

And he pardoned people because he can do that for unjust prosecutions. Did you know that Joe Biden pardoned his own son BEFORE he was even prosecuted? Now THAT is some Grade-A bullshit.

5) I have no idea what you're talking about a militia shooting someone.

I never did respond to this BS so let’s set the record straight.

“Although disgusting…” Do you have daughters? You still support him to lead men and women after he talks about women like this? You’re damn right it’s disgusting. Shame on you.

Release the files. Done.

He had every chance to tell them to go home and stand down. Respect to those police officers who bravely defended your capital that day. What a disgusting stain on American history that day will always be.

When trying to excuse Trump so often we hear, ‘but Biden did it, but Bill Clinton did it’. FIne, go and arrest them if they’re guilty, but don’t use that mealy mouthed two-wrongs excuse to avoid holding Trump accountable. It’s pathetic and a playground defence.

Google it.

Regarding point number one. Guys make rude jokes. Even disgusting jokes. Jokes are not evidence of crimes. And don't try to "shame" me. I don't know you and you don't know me. Be civil.

Point 2. Those files are being released.

Point 3. He did tell them to go home after he was told what was going on. Remember, he was still speaking to a crowd at the time. You need to do a thorough review of the actual timeline because I don't think you have done so.

Point 4. You keep reverting to accusing Trump of imaginary crimes you think he committed. Name the crime. Giving a speech isn't a crime. He didn't incite anyone to commit violence. The riot was in progress even before he was finished speaking and he never told anyone to riot at the Capitol building. Again... read the transcript.

Point 5. Google what?

richardyot · January 16

January 6th was an attempt to stop Pence counting the votes, a clear and absolutely transparent attempt to interfere with the election. Any claim otherwise is a lie told by fascists.

AlexY · January 16

MAGA and their ICE/Proud Boy scumbags have no moral ground whatsoever.

https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/ice-tear-gassed-family-vehicle-with-6-children-inside/

richardyot · January 16

espiegel123 · January 16

Don’t let someone crash the main thread. They have been successful in the past at getting threads shut down (possibly unintentionally) by provoking responses.

espiegel123 · January 16

Imo, the federal government is intentionally pushing the limits of what people can bear in the hopes of provoking responses that they feel will let them invoke the insurrection act with SCOTUS approval.

The belligerent and provocative tone the feds adopt and their lies and misleading statements are aimed at division.

maxxpower18 · January 16

@espiegel123 said:
Don’t let someone crash the main thread. They have been successful in the past at getting threads shut down (possibly unintentionally) by provoking responses.

That's all the Republicans have, throw shit into the wall and hope it sticks. They're not interested in discourse.

richardyot · January 16

Pandan · January 16

Filling up your tank: Totally sus. I’m sure they’re doing it to everyone tho, no need for alarm, skin color totes has nothing to do with why this fella got the extra attention at the pump

EDIT: My bad @AlexY already posted this video above with basically the same sentiment (sans snark). In fact that’s probably where I saw it first and forgot like the dummy I am. Sorry!

AlexY · January 16

@maxxpower18 said:
You're probably right, but with these lunatics it's hard to tell if they're going for a Holocaust or a civil war.

I have no doubt that, if they aren’t already, they will eventually try to keep tags on people/allies who dare to resist regardless of skin color. Staying out of the fray is a choice that some people don’t have if ICE happens to racially profile them, so to me a person who is not at risk of experiencing that but speaks out or puts themselves at risk by resisting is making a strong moral statement. As the young ones say, “it’s based af”

AlexY · January 16

Answering here out of respect for the mods time…(oh well, the original was moved anyway)

@Zerozerozero said:

NeuM said:

@Katinkera said:
NeuM you can cross exchange with
"ANTI - Abuse of state power by inadequately trained and racially biased government agents" if you find it rolls better off the tongue.
(just me tho, maybe Pandan has an even better title which is less "intense" for you)
Edit: oh my brother from anothe rmother already did it

OK, so since “racism”, “social justice”, “ICE”, “human rights” are clearly part of the song, they can all be freely discussed here now, right? Or are those things only open to the “do and say things my way or get out” crowd?

This is another blow against the splinter thread, I’m afraid.

Did you know that roughly 45% of ICE agents are “non-white”? It’s true. And Hispanic agents make up the largest portion of those employees. Do you think agents would remain agents if they believed they were all enforcing “racist” policies?

Did you know that one off the core constitutionally limited functions of the Federal government in the U.S. is immigration and border enforcement? So it’s not a matter of “social justice” or “human rights” being infringed to make sure only those who are allowed to remain in the U.S. are here legally.

I wonder if the song would be accepted here if those things were woven into the lyrics.

Is your argument that because an organisation has people from different backgrounds then it can’t possibly ever act in a racist way or commit racist acts?
I’m sure it can’t be.
Applied to police/army/whatever it doesn’t seem to hold up.
It would be cherry picking a single stat to make an argument. Like a bad faith actor.

One of the government docs posted is from 2018, so that by itself is questionable given the surge of applicants and recruits.

——

More generally to the talk about “civility “and “respect” regarding ICE , not only is that a fallacy that treats each position as if they were equally valid (Argumentum ad temperantiam), but also a diversionary tactic.

There is no rational universe in which a position that defends, tacitly approves, or hand waves the reality of racial profiling and/or police brutality is either "respectful" or "civil". Fundamentally, it can't be so since it fundamentally posits that some people's rights before their own government are less valuable than other people's based on nothing but race or ethnicity.
Pretending otherwise just makes this an empty "civility charade".

Edit:

I think these quotes by MLK and Malcolm X are unfortunately very relevant right now:

MLK:

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Malcolm X:

“If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made. They won't even admit the knife is there.

You can take the 'white' part out of 'white moderate' because this is more directed at this idea that one has to "be civil" to something that is barbaric-- a demand made in the name of "keeping the peace". The unfortunate thing is that people of bad faith take advantage of the tendency to legitimize "both sides" to keep presenting their problematic (and that's being kind) positions as if they were just as reasonable and 'civil' as anything else. Enabling this, just contributes to the further shifting of the Overton Window.

NeuM · January 16

@richardyot said:
January 6th was an attempt to stop Pence counting the votes, a clear and absolutely transparent attempt to interfere with the election. Any claim otherwise is a lie told by fascists.

At least half the voting public saw an election with repeated questionable voting violations (election machine tampering, broken chain of custody with ballots, ballot counters literally covering windows to avoid being seen and scrutinized). That's why they were there. Because in their minds, the election was stolen and they wanted greater scrutiny placed on a number of states. Pence was the person who could've ordered a review of ballots and counts and he didn't. That's not fascism.

NeuM · January 16

@richardyot said:

Look at the footage from that angle not a still image posted by that liar. The agent was hit by the car.

richardyot · January 16

Fascists are people who will try to overturn elections that they lose, and then lie about it afterwards.

maxxpower18 · January 16

I understand that mixing politics in a hobbyist forum is a recipe for disaster, but I think everybody needs to understand that these aren't normal times. These are very dangerous times and things will only get worse.

I refuse to let this play out like 1930s Germany where people just let the Nazis kill off Jews and other minorities. We have a historical reference this time around.

audiblevideo · January 16

@maxxpower18 said:
I understand that mixing politics in a hobbyist forum is a recipe for disaster, but I think everybody needs to understand that these aren't normal times. These are very dangerous times and things will only get worse.

I refuse to let this play out like 1930s Germany where people just let the Nazis kill off Jews and other minorities. We have a historical reference this time around.

👍👍

Katinkera · January 16

@Michael If political music is moved out of the public section of a forum to avoid moderation work (I understand that you´re doing this work voluntarily and I absolutely respect this as a personal decision of the moderators tho I´d suggest clearer rules f.e. "Don´t question the political views of others etc" ) because a minority of people who like to stir things up toreach exactly this outcome - you´re only giving space to more of this kind of behavior. There will be another political track by someone and it will just repeat. You´re punishing the artists. I don´t want to hang in places where behaviour like that is tolerated. Thanks to anyone for listening and reflecting a bit along the way, peace

NeuM · January 16

@Katinkera said:
@Michael If political music is moved out of the public section of a forum to avoid moderation work (I understand that you´re doing this work voluntarily and I absolutely respect this as a personal decision of the moderators tho I´d suggest clearer rules f.e. "Don´t question the political views of others etc" ) because a minority of people who like to stir things up toreach exactly this outcome - you´re only giving space to more of this kind of behavior. There will be another political track by someone and it will just repeat. You´re punishing the artists. I don´t want to hang in places where behaviour like that is tolerated. Thanks to anyone for listening and reflecting a bit along the way, peace

If an artist wants feedback, don't they just point to the thread with a link? It's been that way for years.

NeuM · January 16

@maxxpower18 said:
I understand that mixing politics in a hobbyist forum is a recipe for disaster, but I think everybody needs to understand that these aren't normal times. These are very dangerous times and things will only get worse.

I refuse to let this play out like 1930s Germany where people just let the Nazis kill off Jews and other minorities. We have a historical reference this time around.

Having a thread in a less moderated location where everyone can politely voice their point of view is not dangerous. NONE of this is like 1930's Germany. Not even remotely close to it. Everyone can still talk about whatever they want. But the site rules about attacking other members still applies here.

NeuM · January 16

@richardyot said:
Fascists are people who will try to overturn elections that they lose, and then lie about it afterwards.

Didn't Hillary Clinton lose and then lie repeatedly about it? Didn't Al Gore try to "overturn" the election he lost by having a Florida ballot recount? See, it's just not as clear cut as you may think about it.

NeuM · January 16

@AlexY said:

@maxxpower18 said:
You're probably right, but with these lunatics it's hard to tell if they're going for a Holocaust or a civil war.

I have no doubt that, if they aren’t already, they will eventually try to keep tags on people/allies who dare to resist regardless of skin color. Staying out of the fray is a choice that some people don’t have if ICE happens to racially profile them, so to me a person who is not at risk of experiencing that but speaks out or puts themselves at risk by resisting is making a strong moral statement. As the young ones say, “it’s based af”

What does "resist" mean? Is resisting violating Federal law?

NeuM · January 16

@espiegel123 said:
!

Imo, the federal government is intentionally pushing the limits of what people can bear in the hopes of provoking responses that they feel will let them invoke the insurrection act with SCOTUS approval.

The belligerent and provocative tone the feds adopt and their lies and misleading statements are aimed at division.

Every President in our modern era has carried out arrest and deportation efforts to enforce Federal immigration laws. Entering the US in violation of the law is a deportable event.

Recently the Supreme Court ruled that the President could not send National Guard units to the states to quell insurrections, uprisings and the like. But the ruling did note that the proper way to deal with these things is to invoke the Insurrection Act, which is the constitutionally correct remedy. So if the Insurrection Act is declared, then it's the right thing to do in order to deal with riots, attacks on Federal officers, property destruction, etc. George W. Bush declared the Insurrection Act during the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles in 1992, but it has been used by 15 different Presidents in US history.

Joe Biden had this authority. Barack Obama had this authority. Every President has had this authority as Chief Executive and Commander in Chief. The President is the only person in the US with this authority.

richardyot · January 16

@Michael and @wim

Is this really what you want this place to be, somewhere where people peddle fascist propaganda?

Michael · January 16

I want to step in here and reset things, because this discussion is circling the same drain again.

I understand that for many people these topics feel urgent, moral, and existential. I am not dismissing that. I am also not asking anyone to pretend that all viewpoints are equally valid, or to mute their convictions. What I am saying is that this forum is not the place to adjudicate those convictions, however strongly held they may be.

A few points need to be absolutely clear:

We are not moderating based on which political positions we believe are right or wrong.
We are moderating based on behaviour, venue, and respect for moderator direction.
Repeated political argument, historical analogy escalation, and labeling of other members as fascists, bad-faith actors, or moral failures is not acceptable here.
This applies regardless of how justified you believe your position to be.

Moving a thread is not a punishment of artists, and it is not an attempt to suppress political music. Political music is allowed. Discussion of the music itself is allowed. What is not allowed is turning music threads into battlegrounds over real-world politics, ideology, or current events after moderators have asked that discussion to move elsewhere.

I also want to say something more broadly, because it keeps coming up.

I do not believe that the answer to living in dangerous or polarized times is to abandon conversation entirely, or to decide in advance who is beyond the pale and therefore not worth engaging with. Conversation is fragile, uncomfortable, and often unsatisfying, but once it disappears, what replaces it is not justice. It is silence, fragmentation, and people talking only to those who already agree with them.

That does not mean tolerating abuse. It does not mean excusing harassment. It does not mean pretending harm does not exist. It means drawing a firm line around how we treat one another, not what conclusions we arrive at.

If you want to argue politics in depth, the Other category exists for that purpose. If you want to discuss music, production, or artistic choices, please keep it to that. If you see concrete behavioural violations, flag them. If a discussion is upsetting but not violating rules, the healthiest option is often to disengage rather than escalate.

We are not going to resolve the moral arc of history in a Loopy Pro forum thread. What we can do is decide whether this remains a place where people can show up, share work, disagree, and still be treated like human beings.

Let’s leave it there.

richardyot · January 16

@Michael said:
I want to step in here and reset things, because this discussion is circling the same drain again.

I understand that for many people these topics feel urgent, moral, and existential. I am not dismissing that. I am also not asking anyone to pretend that all viewpoints are equally valid, or to mute their convictions. What I am saying is that this forum is not the place to adjudicate those convictions, however strongly held they may be.

A few points need to be absolutely clear:

We are not moderating based on which political positions we believe are right or wrong.

We are moderating based on behaviour, venue, and respect for moderator direction.

Repeated political argument, historical analogy escalation, and labeling of other members as fascists, bad-faith actors, or moral failures is not acceptable here.

This applies regardless of how justified you believe your position to be.

Moving a thread is not a punishment of artists, and it is not an attempt to suppress political music. Political music is allowed. Discussion of the music itself is allowed. What is not allowed is turning music threads into battlegrounds over real-world politics, ideology, or current events after moderators have asked that discussion to move elsewhere.

I also want to say something more broadly, because it keeps coming up.

I do not believe that the answer to living in dangerous or polarized times is to abandon conversation entirely, or to decide in advance who is beyond the pale and therefore not worth engaging with. Conversation is fragile, uncomfortable, and often unsatisfying, but once it disappears, what replaces it is not justice. It is silence, fragmentation, and people talking only to those who already agree with them.

That does not mean tolerating abuse. It does not mean excusing harassment. It does not mean pretending harm does not exist. It means drawing a firm line around how we treat one another, not what conclusions we arrive at.

If you want to argue politics in depth, the Other category exists for that purpose. If you want to discuss music, production, or artistic choices, please keep it to that. If you see concrete behavioural violations, flag them. If a discussion is upsetting but not violating rules, the healthiest option is often to disengage rather than escalate.

We are not going to resolve the moral arc of history in a Loopy Pro forum thread. What we can do is decide whether this remains a place where people can show up, share work, disagree, and still be treated like human beings.

Let’s leave it there.

Well I profoundly disagree. We are in a terrible place precisely because horrible ideas have become normalised. I want no part in that.

AlexY · January 16

Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.

Spinoff thread from “Fight/Flight (An Anti-Ice Rap Track)”

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