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Fight/Flight (An Anti-Immigrant-Demonization-And-Harassment-By-Anyone Rap Track)

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Comments

  • jwmmakerofmusicjwmmakerofmusic

    @NeuM said:

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @klownshed said:
    Dear Mods.

    If this is the direction we continue to be headed in on the forum then I’m not sure I want to be part of this community anymore.

    There are more than enough places online to argue or debate politics. It never goes well. These days it’s worse than ever as people have become so polarised and binary. Subtlety has left the chat. Disagreeing agreeably never entered.

    I’d rather the most contentious discussions on the forum are about whether DAWless music is liberating or mind numbingly boring.

    I want the worst way I can offend people to be my hatred of jazz.

    And if was Michael I‘d want a forum bearing my product’s name to be free of all this. I think that this thread can potentially be a terrible reflection on Loopy Pro.

    But that’s just my opinion. If my views are no longer in line with the direction of the forum then please consider me well and truly out as I don’t want to be part of a community where this thread is indicative of what’s acceptable.

    It’s not about whether people are right or wrong, just about whether this particular forum is the right place to be right or wrong.

    And I apologise unreservedly for any of my posts that fanned the flames. And that’s the point of me posting this. It’s hard to ignore some of the posts here and not want to try and get one’s own point across. And I really, really don’t want to have to do that on an audio forum.

    For what it’s worth I’m personally fine with political lyrics in music. That’s pretty much what music is for. Maybe we can try and be less inflammatory with thread titles and let the music speak for itself. But I don’t know how you post something inflammatory and not get an equal and opposite response.

    Tricky.

    But yeah I’m over it. I don’t think that allowing politics in the ‘other’ thread can work as people won’t be able to stop posting on the main thread. As above. Including me.

    So if I am the one that’s out of sync with what this forum should or shouldn’t be then I would accept it with no hard feelings and ask for my account to be deleted. Because I don’t want to see or be drawn in to these kinds of debates anymore on an audio forum.

    Maybe you and @Fruitbat1919 should take a short break and come back when the dust has settled. You both add so much to this forum and are genuinely good folks, unlike the other person who keeps stirring the hornet's nest. If anything, he should leave, not you and Fruitbat.

    EDIT: I must apologize in advance to @Pandan for going off-topic on this comment above, but I don't want to lose two more good members of this forum.

    Jim, I’m not leaving. And I’d appreciate you retracting that comment. I welcome all kinds of views here and consider all viewpoints worthy of discussion. @Pandan is willing to have a civil and adult discussion in this thread and so should others.

    I'm not going to retract my comment but rather apologize for my comment about you. Sorry man. I just don't want to lose good forum members over these discussions.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @Katinkera said:
    @NeuM said:

    The tendency here has been to ignore sources, so that’s why none were provided initially.

    I understand. Can we both agree that we like sources and are able to have this discussion without getting personal but curious while staying cool and as scientific as possible? I´m really interested in having this conversation with you but I need us both to agree on mentioned ground rules for debating. Pandan probably won´t have that discussion with you and I can absolutely understand, why. You´ll have to deal with me. And as per request of the mods: Let´s respect them and their request.
    @Pandan dear, could you do us and the mods a solid and edit your original post including something along the lines of
    "We are aware this might encourage further political discussions or statements. We kindly encourage you (also on behalf of the mod team) to take that part of feedback to the spinoff-thread but we appreciate any kind of feedback on our music itself. Thank you! "

    I’m sure you understand this thread is for discussion of the song itself (ideas and themes raised, production, lyrics, mix, mastering). So things not raised by the song’s authors are technically not part of the thread, nor should they be posted here. This has been made quite clear.

    If the authors mention peripheral subjects because they are part of the song’s theme, as mentioned above, they’re part of this thread.

    Unrelated political screeds, ad hominem attacks, painting opposing views as belonging to someone not welcome on this forum should be considered off limits. And by the way, passive-aggressive comments are still personal attacks.

    I think we can all agree to this framework, yes?

    Now, if this framework is not acceptable for this thread, then all subsequent comments should be made ONLY on the splinter thread. Go wild there.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @NeuM said:

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @klownshed said:
    Dear Mods.

    If this is the direction we continue to be headed in on the forum then I’m not sure I want to be part of this community anymore.

    There are more than enough places online to argue or debate politics. It never goes well. These days it’s worse than ever as people have become so polarised and binary. Subtlety has left the chat. Disagreeing agreeably never entered.

    I’d rather the most contentious discussions on the forum are about whether DAWless music is liberating or mind numbingly boring.

    I want the worst way I can offend people to be my hatred of jazz.

    And if was Michael I‘d want a forum bearing my product’s name to be free of all this. I think that this thread can potentially be a terrible reflection on Loopy Pro.

    But that’s just my opinion. If my views are no longer in line with the direction of the forum then please consider me well and truly out as I don’t want to be part of a community where this thread is indicative of what’s acceptable.

    It’s not about whether people are right or wrong, just about whether this particular forum is the right place to be right or wrong.

    And I apologise unreservedly for any of my posts that fanned the flames. And that’s the point of me posting this. It’s hard to ignore some of the posts here and not want to try and get one’s own point across. And I really, really don’t want to have to do that on an audio forum.

    For what it’s worth I’m personally fine with political lyrics in music. That’s pretty much what music is for. Maybe we can try and be less inflammatory with thread titles and let the music speak for itself. But I don’t know how you post something inflammatory and not get an equal and opposite response.

    Tricky.

    But yeah I’m over it. I don’t think that allowing politics in the ‘other’ thread can work as people won’t be able to stop posting on the main thread. As above. Including me.

    So if I am the one that’s out of sync with what this forum should or shouldn’t be then I would accept it with no hard feelings and ask for my account to be deleted. Because I don’t want to see or be drawn in to these kinds of debates anymore on an audio forum.

    Maybe you and @Fruitbat1919 should take a short break and come back when the dust has settled. You both add so much to this forum and are genuinely good folks, unlike the other person who keeps stirring the hornet's nest. If anything, he should leave, not you and Fruitbat.

    EDIT: I must apologize in advance to @Pandan for going off-topic on this comment above, but I don't want to lose two more good members of this forum.

    Jim, I’m not leaving. And I’d appreciate you retracting that comment. I welcome all kinds of views here and consider all viewpoints worthy of discussion. @Pandan is willing to have a civil and adult discussion in this thread and so should others.

    I'm not going to retract my comment but rather apologize for my comment about you. Sorry man. I just don't want to lose good forum members over these discussions.

    Neither do I. We keep good forum members by being respectful with each other and having civil discussions, even on things we don’t agree on. 👍

  • jwmmakerofmusicjwmmakerofmusic

    @NeuM said:

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @NeuM said:

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @klownshed said:
    Dear Mods.

    If this is the direction we continue to be headed in on the forum then I’m not sure I want to be part of this community anymore.

    There are more than enough places online to argue or debate politics. It never goes well. These days it’s worse than ever as people have become so polarised and binary. Subtlety has left the chat. Disagreeing agreeably never entered.

    I’d rather the most contentious discussions on the forum are about whether DAWless music is liberating or mind numbingly boring.

    I want the worst way I can offend people to be my hatred of jazz.

    And if was Michael I‘d want a forum bearing my product’s name to be free of all this. I think that this thread can potentially be a terrible reflection on Loopy Pro.

    But that’s just my opinion. If my views are no longer in line with the direction of the forum then please consider me well and truly out as I don’t want to be part of a community where this thread is indicative of what’s acceptable.

    It’s not about whether people are right or wrong, just about whether this particular forum is the right place to be right or wrong.

    And I apologise unreservedly for any of my posts that fanned the flames. And that’s the point of me posting this. It’s hard to ignore some of the posts here and not want to try and get one’s own point across. And I really, really don’t want to have to do that on an audio forum.

    For what it’s worth I’m personally fine with political lyrics in music. That’s pretty much what music is for. Maybe we can try and be less inflammatory with thread titles and let the music speak for itself. But I don’t know how you post something inflammatory and not get an equal and opposite response.

    Tricky.

    But yeah I’m over it. I don’t think that allowing politics in the ‘other’ thread can work as people won’t be able to stop posting on the main thread. As above. Including me.

    So if I am the one that’s out of sync with what this forum should or shouldn’t be then I would accept it with no hard feelings and ask for my account to be deleted. Because I don’t want to see or be drawn in to these kinds of debates anymore on an audio forum.

    Maybe you and @Fruitbat1919 should take a short break and come back when the dust has settled. You both add so much to this forum and are genuinely good folks, unlike the other person who keeps stirring the hornet's nest. If anything, he should leave, not you and Fruitbat.

    EDIT: I must apologize in advance to @Pandan for going off-topic on this comment above, but I don't want to lose two more good members of this forum.

    Jim, I’m not leaving. And I’d appreciate you retracting that comment. I welcome all kinds of views here and consider all viewpoints worthy of discussion. @Pandan is willing to have a civil and adult discussion in this thread and so should others.

    I'm not going to retract my comment but rather apologize for my comment about you. Sorry man. I just don't want to lose good forum members over these discussions.

    Neither do I. We keep good forum members by being respectful with each other and having civil discussions, even on things we don’t agree on. 👍

    Exactly. 👍

  • ZerozerozeroZerozerozero

    @NeuM said:

    @Katinkera said:
    @NeuM you can cross exchange with
    "ANTI - Abuse of state power by inadequately trained and racially biased government agents" if you find it rolls better off the tongue.
    (just me tho, maybe Pandan has an even better title which is less "intense" for you)
    Edit: oh my brother from anothe rmother already did it :D

    OK, so since “racism”, “social justice”, “ICE”, “human rights” are clearly part of the song, they can all be freely discussed here now, right? Or are those things only open to the “do and say things my way or get out” crowd?

    This is another blow against the splinter thread, I’m afraid.

    Did you know that roughly 45% of ICE agents are “non-white”? It’s true. And Hispanic agents make up the largest portion of those employees. Do you think agents would remain agents if they believed they were all enforcing “racist” policies?

    Did you know that one off the core constitutionally limited functions of the Federal government in the U.S. is immigration and border enforcement? So it’s not a matter of “social justice” or “human rights” being infringed to make sure only those who are allowed to remain in the U.S. are here legally.

    I wonder if the song would be accepted here if those things were woven into the lyrics.

    Is your argument that because an organisation has people from different backgrounds then it can’t possibly ever act in a racist way or commit racist acts?
    I’m sure it can’t be.
    Applied to police/army/whatever it doesn’t seem to hold up.
    It would be cherry picking a single stat to make an argument. Like a bad faith actor.

  • KatinkeraKatinkera
    edited January 16

    @NeuM said:
    I’m sure you understand this thread is for discussion of the song itself (ideas and themes raised, production, lyrics, mix, mastering). So things not raised by the song’s authors are technically not part of the thread, nor should they be posted here. This has been made quite clear.

    I´m a tad confused, these are completely new rules for me, did I miss something? Help me out here so I get in line of events: I do remember the mods asking to take the political discussion to the spin off and leave this thread for music only. I thought you´re still not feeling cool with this because there was still feedback which was considered too political for you (f.e. the meme). Lemme know if I got you wrong there.

    Unrelated political screeds, ad hominem attacks, painting opposing views as belonging to someone not welcome on this forum should be considered off limits.

    Sure, but we are still in a forum with rules. If you feel accused by me pointing out something you´ve said to prove a certain sentiment I won´t judge but do my best to inform you/refute your point. I cannot speak for the mods, tho.

    And by the way, passive-aggressive comments are still personal attacks.

    this is very subjective, you might take something as passive aggressive because I said it in a dry, german way. I don´t know if you have biases against women and perceive direct language of a woman as equivalently passive aggressive as if a man would say it. That rule is a lil too wiggly for me, but I am open for suggestions to find common ground.

    The last bit sounds again like you either want to ignore the mods request and continue to have the political discussion in here OR want to censor the song from the public forum. I hope I got that wrong. None of that is a compromise.

  • KrupaKrupa

    This is nonsense.

    One person who made the first move in the first page expressing their disagreement with the content of an artist’s work has pushed and pushed so that this thread has been cast out into the ‘other’ section because they can’t stand to see that their politics aren’t popular here.

    If I was surrounded by people who I disagreed with and couldn’t deal with seeing their views expressed I’d probably just leave rather than try to impose my will on everyone else.

    It stinks that this can happen in our community. Music can and should have political content, everything is political as we are constantly finding it in these stressed times and for it to be othered because some people can’t deal with the conversation is pathetic. I’ve tried to keep quiet during all this drama as I one I can’t get inflammatory quickly and I don’t really want to get involved in flame wars here but seeing this pushed this way sickens me.

  • gusgranitegusgranite

    @NeuM said:

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @NeuM said:

    @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @klownshed said:
    Dear Mods.

    If this is the direction we continue to be headed in on the forum then I’m not sure I want to be part of this community anymore.

    There are more than enough places online to argue or debate politics. It never goes well. These days it’s worse than ever as people have become so polarised and binary. Subtlety has left the chat. Disagreeing agreeably never entered.

    I’d rather the most contentious discussions on the forum are about whether DAWless music is liberating or mind numbingly boring.

    I want the worst way I can offend people to be my hatred of jazz.

    And if was Michael I‘d want a forum bearing my product’s name to be free of all this. I think that this thread can potentially be a terrible reflection on Loopy Pro.

    But that’s just my opinion. If my views are no longer in line with the direction of the forum then please consider me well and truly out as I don’t want to be part of a community where this thread is indicative of what’s acceptable.

    It’s not about whether people are right or wrong, just about whether this particular forum is the right place to be right or wrong.

    And I apologise unreservedly for any of my posts that fanned the flames. And that’s the point of me posting this. It’s hard to ignore some of the posts here and not want to try and get one’s own point across. And I really, really don’t want to have to do that on an audio forum.

    For what it’s worth I’m personally fine with political lyrics in music. That’s pretty much what music is for. Maybe we can try and be less inflammatory with thread titles and let the music speak for itself. But I don’t know how you post something inflammatory and not get an equal and opposite response.

    Tricky.

    But yeah I’m over it. I don’t think that allowing politics in the ‘other’ thread can work as people won’t be able to stop posting on the main thread. As above. Including me.

    So if I am the one that’s out of sync with what this forum should or shouldn’t be then I would accept it with no hard feelings and ask for my account to be deleted. Because I don’t want to see or be drawn in to these kinds of debates anymore on an audio forum.

    Maybe you and @Fruitbat1919 should take a short break and come back when the dust has settled. You both add so much to this forum and are genuinely good folks, unlike the other person who keeps stirring the hornet's nest. If anything, he should leave, not you and Fruitbat.

    EDIT: I must apologize in advance to @Pandan for going off-topic on this comment above, but I don't want to lose two more good members of this forum.

    Jim, I’m not leaving. And I’d appreciate you retracting that comment. I welcome all kinds of views here and consider all viewpoints worthy of discussion. @Pandan is willing to have a civil and adult discussion in this thread and so should others.

    I'm not going to retract my comment but rather apologize for my comment about you. Sorry man. I just don't want to lose good forum members over these discussions.

    Neither do I. We keep good forum members by being respectful with each other and having civil discussions, even on things we don’t agree on. 👍

    I have flagged to the moderators that you always come back to your extreme politics though (as per your previous ban and as shown by this thread). And you are one of the most prolific posters on this forum now so it’s continuously in everyone’s face and IMO it is very damaging for this community and for Loopy Pro.

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited January 16

    @Katinkera said:

    @NeuM said:
    I’m sure you understand this thread is for discussion of the song itself (ideas and themes raised, production, lyrics, mix, mastering). So things not raised by the song’s authors are technically not part of the thread, nor should they be posted here. This has been made quite clear.

    I´m a tad confused, these are completely new rules for me, did I miss something? Help me out here so I get in line of events: I do remember the mods asking to take the political discussion to the spin off and leave this thread for music only. I thought you´re still not feeling cool with this because there was still feedback which was considered too political for you (f.e. the meme). Lemme know if I got you wrong there.

    Unrelated political screeds, ad hominem attacks, painting opposing views as belonging to someone not welcome on this forum should be considered off limits.

    Sure, but we are still in a forum with rules. If you feel accused by me pointing out something you´ve said to prove a certain sentiment I won´t judge but do my best to inform you/refute your point. I cannot speak for the mods, tho.

    And by the way, passive-aggressive comments are still personal attacks.

    this is very subjective, you might take something as passive aggressive because I said it in a dry, german way. I don´t know if you have biases against women and perceive direct language of a woman as equivalently passive aggressive as if a man would say it. That rule is a lil too wiggly for me, but I am open for suggestions to find common ground.

    The last bit sounds again like you either want to ignore the mods request and continue to have the political discussion in here OR want to censor the song from the public forum. I hope I got that wrong. None of that is a compromise.

    I'm adhering to the rules with this summary.

    And no, I don't have biases against women—or Germans—for that matter.> @Zerozerozero said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Katinkera said:
    @NeuM you can cross exchange with
    "ANTI - Abuse of state power by inadequately trained and racially biased government agents" if you find it rolls better off the tongue.
    (just me tho, maybe Pandan has an even better title which is less "intense" for you)
    Edit: oh my brother from anothe rmother already did it :D

    OK, so since “racism”, “social justice”, “ICE”, “human rights” are clearly part of the song, they can all be freely discussed here now, right? Or are those things only open to the “do and say things my way or get out” crowd?

    This is another blow against the splinter thread, I’m afraid.

    Did you know that roughly 45% of ICE agents are “non-white”? It’s true. And Hispanic agents make up the largest portion of those employees. Do you think agents would remain agents if they believed they were all enforcing “racist” policies?

    Did you know that one off the core constitutionally limited functions of the Federal government in the U.S. is immigration and border enforcement? So it’s not a matter of “social justice” or “human rights” being infringed to make sure only those who are allowed to remain in the U.S. are here legally.

    I wonder if the song would be accepted here if those things were woven into the lyrics.

    Is your argument that because an organisation has people from different backgrounds then it can’t possibly ever act in a racist way or commit racist acts?
    I’m sure it can’t be.
    Applied to police/army/whatever it doesn’t seem to hold up.
    It would be cherry picking a single stat to make an argument. Like a bad faith actor.

    Even responding to this question may be going too far afield of the main discussion, but I'll leave that to others to decide.

    If I'm understanding your comment correctly, I've yet to hear an explanation how ICE agents who are carrying out lawful orders to enforce Federal immigration law (to arrest and remove people in the United States who are here in violation of the law) are engaging in racist behavior. The law itself is colorblind. An illegal alien (or visa overstay for that matter, a legal status also subject to arrest and removal) can be from any country and can have any skin color. And that is in fact what they are doing. As far as you or I know, ICE has been going where there are confirmed illegal aliens and they arrest them. They are not (on purpose) arresting or deporting legal migrants or citizens. I suppose with the sheer number of people who are currently illegally interfering with law enforcement there are arrests made beyond the scope of their main mission.

  • MichaelMichael
    edited January 16

    This thread has now been moved to Other.

    A very large number of flags were raised here. That alone is a clear signal that the discussion went well beyond what is acceptable for a music forum.

    To be absolutely clear going forward:

    • Political content in music is allowed in Creations & Collaborations.
    • Discussion of the work as music: production, composition, lyrics, performance, artistic intent: belongs there.
    • Debate about real-world politics, current events, legality, ideology, or policy belongs in Other, or not at all.
    • Personal attacks, labeling, or character judgments are not acceptable anywhere on this forum, regardless of how strongly you feel.

    Multiple requests were made by moderators to stop derailing the thread and move political debate elsewhere. Those requests were repeatedly ignored. That is not acceptable.

    Please remember: this is a privately run forum, centered on a music tool and its community. Participation here is a privilege, not a right. We expect members to respect moderator direction and to treat one another like adults in a shared space.

    We all live in polarized times. That does not obligate this forum to host every argument, nor does it excuse hostile or exhausting behavior.

    Let’s do better next time. Keep music threads about music, take contentious debate elsewhere, and disengage rather than escalate when something isn’t for you.

    Thanks to those who tried to de-escalate and refocus the discussion.

This discussion has been closed.