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@offbrands
That's good to hear.
I haven't "checked out". I am still working full time and can't spend a lot of time at my computer.
I am reading these latest comments and will have more to say.
Can you be more specific about policies that have hurt people? If you are referring to ICE, remember that we have procedures to follow for citizenship. When an ICE officer approaches someone, they have no idea what to expect. They have been trained for worst case situations. If they simply cooperate, there is no trouble. If I was the supervisor of an ICE crew, I wouldn't be interested in persecuting peaceful people. I would be more interested in going after the serious bad guys. Arresting women and children is not much of a challenge, and wouldn't impress anyone.
What did Charlie Kirk do or say to make people so angry? He asked uncomfortable questions and said "Prove me wrong". Rather than engaging in productive debate, he was killed. His assassination was celebrated. BTW - I don't think that kid fired the kill shot.
Regarding transgender people, I say... live and let live. You can do whatever you like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Would you permit a full grown man to participate in a Pop Warner Pee Wee football? Men are bigger and stronger than women. If this is such an important thing, why not simply create a unique category for trans athletes? That would be fair to everyone.
Laken Riley murder was a godsend?
BTW - I haven't forgotten about responding to your comment. As I was putting it together, I realized that it was pointless. I will never change anybody's mind. I do agree with you about pointless things. The "Gulf of America" was one of them. Regarding taxpayer money spent on the new ballroom, I did some reading and found that it is entirely funded by private donors. 37 donors at last count. All of them are extremely wealthy and donate to BOTH parties. I think that might explain why there have been no answers to the Epstein question. I don't think that any presidents are being protected, More likely a few of the big donors. If we ever hope to find the truth, it will cost a lot of money. We will have to outbid the billionaires.
Can you be more specific?
Trump is some crazy anomaly in this world. The bastard won't die even though he's fat and eats like crap. He has people following him to the death even though he insults them at every turn. He keeps failing upwards and will never face justice.
I'm just waiting for that morning when I wake up, read the news that you-know-what finally happened so I can at least celebrate something.
Charlie Kirk’s assassination was a tragic crime.
It is not the case @Paulieworld that he simply asked uncomfortable questions and said “prove me wrong”. He was an intolerant racist, anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, homophobe, transphobe, misogynist, Christian Nationalist who encouraged intolerance and hatred and often used lies and mischaracterization to try to persuade others to his cause.
He should not have been killed.
Few celebrated his death.
Many objected to his being eulogized. Those objections were often mischaracterized as celebrating his death.
His death was tragic AND he should not be treated as having been a good-faith actor seeking dialog and truth.
Go read his words. He was a close-minded intolerant bigot who succeeded in helping mainstream bigotry that until the Trump-era Republicans tried to keep out of the conversation.
—- re ICE
As has been mentioned in this thread and the thread you started , ICE officers consistently violate the law and act in brutal and inhumane ways.
A considerable number of the people they harass are here legally.
Trump and Vance consistently mischaracterize people here legally (such as those who have applied for asylum) as being here illegally and use terrible demeaning language when referring to non-white immigrants.
Regardless of whether one is a legal immigrant or not , one should be treated with decency and respect.
It's not an argument. It's just a fact. I was born in America. I had no choice. We don't give anybody reason to harass us.
Which laws? I would like to read them. That might actually change my mind. We do have laws regarding the proper path to citizenship that have been openly violated. Citizenship is quite easy...
18 years of age.
Be a legal and permanent resident for at least 5 years, or 3 years if married to a U.S. citizen.
Be a person of good moral character (no prior murder, rape, drug dealing).
Be able to speak, read, and write basic English.
If these things are too demanding, why weren't the laws changed when the lawmakers had the opportunity and the VOTES to do it?
I would like to read a few of those memos. It would be like a deer hunter being required to warn the deer. I think those policies must have taken that into account, but having not read them I can't say for sure. If you can provide those memos, I will read and consider them.
I have also seen ICE agents being surrounded and attacked. They are just enforcing those laws that were never changed.
This is an old trick. If you have to ask, I'm not going to tell you. I've said, a million times, don't exaggerate,
We will just have to agree to disagree.
@espiegel123
"He was an intolerant racist, anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, homophobe, transphobe, misogynist, Christian Nationalist who encouraged intolerance and hatred and often used lies and mischaracterization to try to persuade others to his cause."
Wow... you forgot to include that he was a mean old poopy butt. This is just a general statement without any backup.
Please provide some examples.
The bastard won't die.
He's fat and eats like crap.
I'm waiting for the morning when I wake up and... you know what you really wanted to say. You want him dead.
I think it's people like you that handed him the presidency on a silver platter.
Rather than spend your time making childish comments like this, you might want to start looking for someone who can win the next election with good policy. "I'm not Trump" was not a winning platform.
I feel I need to point out that you flip-flopping and contradicting yourself shows that you’re only hiding behind religion as a shield for your nefarious views and intentions, which happen to contradict what the actual religion promotes.
It’s the oldest trick in the book, almost all in power have used and will use/abuse religion and their followers will gladly play along using this shield as a fake badge of ”righteousness” and ”for the well-being of others” only as an excuse to then justify the most horrific crimes against humanity…
Plenty of examples in history and modern times of this.
”try to be nice to everybody and help wherever we can”…
Really?
This is where you contradict yourself 100%, I pointed out earlier and yet you refused to reply to the following:
Studies consistently show immigrants, even undocumented ones, have lower rates of violent crime, including homicide, compared to native-born Americans.
Crime with Increased Immigration: Data from 1980-2022 shows the immigrant share of the U.S. population more than doubled while overall crime rates dropped significantly, suggesting no link between increased immigration and higher crime.
Now please consider it once again and please answer the question who the ”troublemakers” that need to be taken care of are?
So the ”family of troublemakers” that ”need to be taken care of” by DJT are somehow immigrants?
How so?
Lower rates of violent crime, including homicide, compared to native-born Americans.
No link between increased immigration and higher crime, data from 1980-2022 shows.
So you are a ”peace-loving god-fearing christian hippie” who try to be nice to everybody and help wherever you can and amidst this supposed world view of yours you also intentionally vote for and defend the actions of a ”bloviating blowhard. He is self-centered, narcissistic, and he scares people.” since according to you ”Sometimes, that’s what it takes.”?
Yet you can’t actually pinpoint and spill out who the troublemakers that need to be taken care of actually are in the first place.
If immigrants have lower rates of violent crime, including homicide, compared to native-born Americans and data clearly shows there is no link between increased immigration and higher crime, I once again ask:
Who are the ”troublemakers”?
Your answer and only defense for your contradictions would be something in line with the following which would of course sadly rely on wacky conspiracy theories that ”religious” right-wingers already love to rely on:
And exactly how are you not controlled when you yourself defend and fight for ICE,
how are their actions specifically not following an evil agenda by people with power and money?
Aahh ”there’s an evil agenda by evil people in power”, as a supposedly religious person you if anyone should know the very basics of not returning evil with evil…
All sages, mystics, ascetics, prophets have always promoted this simple principle in all religions.
It’s called being good.
If all religions have similar precepts of not killing, not stealing and not lying etc. you can’t find a loophole to justify these very evil things and/or endorse those who carry them out, point being:
How do you justify endorsing a manipulative liar?
And here is your full post which is naturally sprinkled with your so-called ”christian” beliefs:
This if anything shows that you only use religion the same way that the self-centered narcissistics that you defend use religion.
You actually don’t come from a sincere state of true understanding regarding religious matters at all.
@Paulieworld : Charlie Kirk’s message of hate and intolerance is well-documented. He was proud of it and unapologetic. His career was trying to persuade others to his point of view and to funnel money to political candidates that shared it.
Here is one article with some choice quotes. You can find countless other quotes from him.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/11/charlie-kirk-quotes-beliefs
Perhaps his point-of-view is agreeable to you. If so, further conversation is probably not fruitful.
I am just reading about another ICE killing that took place earlier this morning in Minneapolis. ICE officers beat then shot and killed a man already under their control.
They then tried to clear out local law enforcement to prevent them from securing evidence and take witness statements.
Witnesses at the scene say that ICE took custody of numerous potential witnesses and whisked them off before local law enforcement could speak with them.
a Zalophus by any other name…
@Yadrichik_Chaya The "troublemakers" were the out-of-control children of a neighbor couple. They were not immigrants. They were what we used to call "greasers". Juvenile delinquents. They were bullies that picked on the smaller, weaker kids. Finally, somebody had enough and beat them up.
Maduro and Mexican cartels are exporting dangerous drugs into America. Fentanyl is being added to other drugs masquerading as cocaine, meth, and heroin. People take these drugs and die, when they were only looking for a recreational high. I think that was what killed Prince. There was a lot of talk about "what needed to be done", but no action.
Iran was building a nuclear arsenal. They say "Death to America". Again, something "needed to be "done", but it was all talk.
There are many illegal immigrants with prior histories of murder, rape, and drug dealing. While most of the immigrants are probably decent people of moral character, that still leaves an unknown quantity of truly bad people. They can't just be ignored. They need to be apprehended and removed. Do you have a better approach for this?
Those are the troublemakers. Not peaceful immigrants.
As I have said many times, lawmakers had the opportunity and the VOTES to change the laws. Yet, nobody wants to address that.
ICE agents never know what they will encounter while enforcing those laws that were never changed. They are trained for worst case situations. If a suspect has nothing to hide, it would be much easier to simply cooperate and be released. We don't hear much about those encounters as they don't make for provocative news stories.
The point I'm trying to make is that there are people who take the moral high ground, but don't actually want to personally do anything about it. I addressed that in my PROPOSAL thread. It is a satirical post that suggests a possible solution and points out the hypocrisy.
There is an affluent suburb named Naperville near me. A few years ago, they had a town meeting. One of the topics was the "immigration issue". They all got together and agreed that "something needed to be done". They all felt pretty good about themselves. At the end of the meeting, someone said... Let's invite them to Naperville.
Read about it here...
https://www.nctv17.org/news/naperville-residents-speak-out-over-councilman-mcbrooms-migrant-housing-proposal-questioning-sincerity/?srsltid=AfmBOooC_jNBId9GnQ94uV7Zrpd-KHIu9QtUgukVdDC2Y-KZgFFfv1nh
https://www.youtube.com/live/ASr1zVuQlX4?si=YQNl3oorYBsPCzfF
Is it just me or is this discussion, like all the political discussions here, likely pointless or even worse than pointless? ie. counterproductive. I don't think the minds of either side have been changed by this week or so of heated debate here. If anything people are likely more entrenched in their views, more alienated, more divided.
There has to be another, better way to do all this. Talking about important stuff on the internet makes people feel like they're doing something, but that time would really be better spent doing something else. What that other, better thing is, I'm really not sure, but it isn't this. Strangers don't easily change other strangers' minds by picking holes in their arguments online.
You say “there has to be a better way”.
What is it?
So, the solution is not trying to provide facts and expose people to other viewpoints? I don’t see how, even if it is generally futile, it is better than the alternative.
Sometimes these discussions, help people articulate their views and see how others articulate them in ways that help them communicate in other venues —even if it doesn’t sway the people in the particular conversation. I have been exposed to or reminded of facts that are useful to me.
They also help you understand where people are coming from which helps put their comments in context and understand where others might be coming from.
One of the errors of so-called “enlightenment thinking” is a belief that all people are rational agents that if sufficiently educated will act in accordance with reason.
If discussions like this fail, it may be that we are seeing a conflict of irreconcilable world views. But trying to communicate gives us at least an opportunity try to find common ground .. though we might fail.
If we give up trying to communicate, we are absolutely doomed…even if communication has low odds of resolving anything.
Once or twice a bystander has PMed me that they learned something from one of these conversations that made them rethink their position.
I have been following the ongoing incident in Minneapolis.
There are multiple video feeds but little in the way of facts.
There appears to be a question as to whether the man was armed or not.
NBC is saying that he was a lawful gun owner with a carry permit.
CNN is saying that "DHS says he was armed".
CBS is saying that he approached Border Patrol officers with 9mm semi automatic handgun.
Other outlets are only saying that a man was shot, and no further details are available.
The opinions are piling up on both sides faster than I can read them.
If the man was unarmed, and needlessly shot and killed, that is murder.
If he was armed and approached ICE agents with a gun, that is self defense.
This will be a big story.
I'm going to spend the rest of the day listening to multiple sources to see what really happened.
Right below that, in the same paragraph, I said exactly that I don't know what it is haha.
Yes, I commented this earlier to someone I was talking to about this thread. The main interlocuters might not change their minds and might get more entrenched, but some bystanders might be convinced.
When it comes to internal conflicts in the USA and the smaller and weak being picked on by big bullies…
Was this during genocide of the natives or maybe during the slave trade?
Was it when child labor was rampant and women were not able to vote?
Maybe it was during the civil war (regarding slavery) or just around the civil rights movement?
BTW who won these battles and who actually champion these very things mentioned above, the “bullies” or the “smaller and weaker”?
And the point I’m trying to make is:
I’m all ears, since your rhetoric is always about some inner “threat” like immigrants and outer threat (“weaker nations” infiltrating with drugs or having a military weapons).
The very same formula has already been used numerous times in history to justify heinous acts.
Exactly how is your ideology even promoting human rights though?
Were those commiting genocide on native americans and encouraging slavery also somehow simultaneously “promoting human rights”?
Were those exploiting children for labor (or workers in general), suppressing women’s rights and passing racist laws also “humanists” who cared for the well-being if others?
What if the exploiters only cared for white men, would that maybe make it ok?
Should the soil and that land of mass currently called the USA be predominantly “white”, if so exactly why is that according to you?
Who were “the good guys and bad guys” according to you during the civil war (regarding slavery) and during the civil rights movement?
The US is one of the big bullies in the world with a truly awful history of explotation both domestically and abroad - are you not even aware of this?
Like it or not it has always been and always will be real humanists who actually care for humanity as a whole who are doing the right thing, never the smug calculating conservative nationalists in power or opposition with their fake lip service to some religious book or some deity.
They have endorsed crimes against humanity in the past and are still endorsing crimes against humanity and they violate basic human rights all in the name of their so-called “freedom”.
“Freedom” which only means having power and control over others, no matter if it that involves killing, theft or intentionally lying and violating human rights…..
That's why I don't waste my time with people making posts defending pedophiles. Their main weapon is highjacking threads with their baseless arguments. You just had the American Gestapo execute another US citizen today and you still have people defending this shit. This is serious stuff we're dealing with here.
@Paulieworld
Since you will probably not be able to reply in a coherent way to my previous post above or just ignore it (as usual) here is a more simple question:
Make America Great Again?
Oh I take it you probably mean the post–World War II economic expansion called the Golden Age of Capitalism?
During the "Golden Age" of U.S. capitalism (roughly 1945–1970s), top marginal income tax rates were exceptionally high, hovering around 91%–92% for the highest earners (on income over $200,000) from 1951 to 1963.
LOL!
Gav nailed it.
It is exhausting just reading this stuff.
To my defense this is the very first time I’ve ever discussed anything with MAGAts online, and without a doubt the last time too! 😅👍
I usually avoid any and all interactions with greedy, hateful & delusional people.
One of the MAGAts here already blocked me and made very strange accusations of defamation (for pointing out how his various views are a complete contradiction). 😃
The other MAGAt here is clearly intentionally lying and flip-flopping like crazy, avoiding certain questions, pretending to be ignorant about certain things while in reality being fully aware and also spouting his religious nonsense while not having a single clue about spirituality at all. 😁
This brief first ever online interaction with them shows how deeply disingenuous, foolish and inhumane they really are.
Anyhow I’m eternally grateful that I will never ever encounter any MAGAts in any shape or form IRL, PEACE! ✌️😎
Consider yourself very lucky. I just use this topic to remind people that we live in full fascism now, especially the ones that try to avoid the news. You gotta keep yourself informed during these times. It's extremely important. I don't interact with the magats, they're nothing more than annoying mosquitoes.
This.
People are not asking questions anymore or having a hard time just accepting if somone cannot acknowledge others realities.
Like I know by now that Pauli f.e. is basically an immigrant himself and very religious. That´s his life. He might have a hard time considering that most people around him live in completely different realities. If you haven´t had enough to eat, haven´t had a serious illness which altered your way of life or anything that actually threatens your existance or integrity in any way, if you are unable to imagine how living in others peoples lives and bodies would feel like...you´re not ready nor willing to leave the bubble and it just can´t be popped from outside.
I made two songs this week and finished all my client work on time because I had that same realization after the last debate
Maybe not lucky enough!
I’m actually residing in Sweden with immigrant parents where the far-right party founded by a veteran Nazi SS officier has over 20% of the votes, every 5th person here votes for them…
So there is a fair share of stupid nationalist motherfuckers here too! 🤬
Katja Nyberg a member of parliament (MP) for the nationalist party Sweden Democrats (Sverigedemokraterna) has been a member of the Justice Committee since 2018 and a deputy member of the delegation to the Joint Parliamentary Scrutiny Group for Europol.
Nyberg has worked as a police officer and has been employed by the National Operations Department. She has served on the Regional Police Council and on the Security Service's Transparency Council.
Denial of Allegations: Nyberg denied the allegations to SVT, claiming she was involved in a wildlife accident. 😂
The truth is she was on her way home after buying cocaine from the dealer when the police showed up and she panicked in her car, hardly a wildlife accident, unless she was actually so high on booger sugar that she hallucinated and thought she saw a moose or something! 🤣
Anyhow this racist piece of shit is a cop, working both with the secret service here in Sweden SÄPO and Europol while also enforcing stricter punishments for drug related crimes while she herself is a cocaine addict and a drunk driver!
The hypocrisy is really mind-blowing! 🤯
Here is another one that happened last year but only made it to the news a few weeks ago:
Who the fuck jacks off out in public in the middle of the street next to an electrical cabinet!?!?
🤣😂😅
But jokes aside these politicians are all a bunch of subhuman freaks who have also been convicted of some very serious things like murder, rape & child pornography among other things in recent years! 🤬🤬🤬
So while I’m really thankful not to encounter any delusional larger than life loud mouth patriotic ”christian” MAGAts with their white supremacy USA exceptionalism bullshit their nationalist nazi brothers here, who BTW love Trump, have way too much influence already!
Sweden Democrats are as democratic and pro democracy as the Nazi National-Socialists were pro socialism and socialists: 0%
I think there are so many things happening at once in the US that nothing sticks at the moment. I hate to harp on about it but I still can’t get over the fact that the president of the United States made deeply offensive and derisory comments about Allied soldiers who died for his country. I’m kinda stuck on this one. Where are the Republicans on the forum on this? Do they also think it crossed a line and means he is unfit to lead? Or are they OK with it? Just whistle, look the other way, and move on in the name of whatever the bigger picture is?
It’s just something you would never ever do in my book. It’s inconceivable to me that you would be let off once you crossed that line as well.
They don't care, daddy Trump can do no wrong. They are already backpedaling on the 2nd amendment after what happened yesterday.