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For someone who doesn't know much, what's the main difference between the oscillators and filter between the Prophet 5 and the Jupiter 8?
Well put. And constructive feedback regarding whatever always lands a lot better if delivered in a respectful, calm and nice manner, This ”tone” is something this forum is well-known for online. Let’s all try to keep it that way, shall we?
+1
/DMfan🇸🇪
well, regarding that.. there is a bit of misunderstanding / misscommunicstion about “modern smooth filter” on on Pro-x serie.. here is how it really works:
Rev1 and 2 - original first versions.. Dirty sounding resonance due to low quality chip SSM2040, unstable oscillstors, vca .. Filter with high resonance very noticeably drives signal.
Then Rev3: they swapped filter chip to CEM3320 (used also in Oberheim OB-X, Xa, Elka Synthex, LinnDrum - Check iOS plugin OB-Xd it has very great. emulation of this filter circuit), additionally Rev3 swapped to Curtis chils also for oscillstors, envelopes, VCAs - that’s why it has much more clean and stable sound than rev1/2. The “sound of Pro-5” which most people like and reffer to is in most cases sound of rev3).
The. in 2020 was made rev4 (“modern”) - this one used same chip as rev3 but additionally they added also SSI2140 (modern clone of SSM2040) and introduced knob “Vintage” - this is crucial knib, what it does:
So faithful emulation should actually implement both dirty and clean filters and then allow to sweep between them. Note that both are stepping (this detail I did not know before), It’s just unclear if they are stepping same way cause in rev3 they changed also ASC/DCA circuits responsible for scanning Curoff knob (which is source of that stepping, cause Pro5 is digitally controlled synth) - new circuits with better precision means in theory less noticeable stepping but there is no reliable source on internet and there is not much people having both rev1/2 and 3 or 4 to compare that :-)
In the originals there are both circuit and feature differences, I’ll try to contrast from memory…
Prophet 5 rev 1/2 use SSM chips for VCO and VCF, Dave Rossom of E-mu was involved in the design btw. These models have a reputation for unreliability, but good sound.
Prophet 5 rev 2 then swaps to CEM chips, the 3310 VCO and 3320 VCF. My experience with 3310 VCO (Pro One, SH101) is that it’s a “hard” sounding VCO not “warm” or “goo-ey”. The 3320 as implemented in Pro One is lightly driven so clean and self-resonance is loud vs oscillators - Pro A5 does seem to replicate this gain structure, practically means tweaking resonance to sit right around the point of self-resonance is helpful.
Jupiter 8 has discrete VCOs (predict warmer) and filter based on IR3109 OTA chip. As far as I know the filter implementation is tamer than the SH101 and does also have a 2-pole mode. The SH101 btw has VCF drive right in the sweet spot of lively resonance with VCO fader up, my Pro One couldn’t drive that hard. My thought is that Roland tuned the Jupiter 8 for “nice” which is something of an advantage for polyphonic playing where “monosynth-wild” would not sit.
And for comparison: Jupiter 6 switches to CEM 3310 VCOs and different 2 x SVF filter topology, from what I’ve heard on recordings it is quite the “hard” sounding poly. MKS80 then keeps the CEM oscs but back to a more JP8 filter design (4-pole only?) though later models switch filter chips.
Hope this is helpful background!
Amazing explanation MadGav
@MadGav loved reading that explanation, thnx a lot
Yeah super interesting info from you and @dendy
Here’s a quick pad comparison between OB-Xd 3, Zeeon, and Pro-A5 (in that order)
They’re all dialled in with 2 detuned saw waves. No chorus or extra voices.
They all sound great I think but there’s something about the character in Pro-A5 that I’ve been trying to find on iOS for ages. It’s more ‘strings-ish’ and less ‘church organ’ to my ears.
Using this as a starting point, then turning unison on to 5 Pro and detuning a bit, and adding chorus just makes this more and more massive, whilst maintaining this character.
And it all sounds very much like the examples in this video to me:
Somebidy makes those hundreds of presets which you like to use.
They are made by us, nerd synth lunatics 🤣
I think you can get way closer than that with Zeeon. For starters, you're not using its Prophety OTA-style filter, "LP24-O". You could try keeping everything as you have it, but change the filter setup this way:
Mode: LP24-O
Tone: 26
Cutoff: swept manually
Res: 10
The Res setting is crucial. Raising it just a little bit from 0 lightens the tone, removing some low end. For some reason, a common view is that a filter that trims the low end with high resonance is bad, but I think it's the best thing about the Prophet filter. It contributes a lot to the ability to "play well with others", to fit in a mix without having to dominate the entire frequency spectrum. It's especially good for woodwind-like sounds. Zeeon's LP24-O filter does this beautifully.
If you have the time to make that comparison, I'd love to hear what you think.
This, ironically if you want REALLY compare how good is filter implemented, sweep of single saw on MAX filter resonance is one test which tells you a lot, and fast lfo > cutoff modulation is other one .. this is where you can distinguish berween aveeage and excellent filters
Yeah that does sound good. Still not quite the same character as pro-a5 but very nearly the same with those settings. Thanks for the info.
As I say, try setting the voices to 5 pro and detune. It sounds massive.
Definitely helps, thanks for the explanation.
No kidding - I continue to hope that Synth One will become AUV3.
(Really enjoying the conversation about Roland, Dave Smith, and Zeeon.)
Normally I agree with your posts, but this time….
Yeah, I agree. All the character of an emulation CAN be preserved, but an iOS app doesn’t need to be LIMITED by those quirky aspects of old tech. From my perspective there have already been a LOT of retro emulations on iOS and not enough standing on the shoulders of giants with 21st C features making the emulations better than the originals. Quirky characteristics like drifting oscillators can be a desired feature, as an example. Make that selectable as a feature and now an app improves on the original. Same with LFOs, Filters, etc. Old Synths and Old Cars can be great, but they are expensive to buy and expensive and time-consuming to maintain. Retro apps should not be a slave to the tech issues of the past, nor the headaches that go with them, and hopefully can improve upon the originals. I’m not speaking of any particular app, but of all retro emulations. Maybe it isn’t the same, but I feel like Devs of video apps are not making Amiga Video Toaster emulations because people want all the limitations for some nostalgic warm fuzzies, but yet music Devs will slavishly preserve limitations of old synths. I don’t care that an old analog synth was monophonic, make the emulation app polyphonic with a monophonic option. I doubt anyone in the future will make emulations of iOS synth apps that preserve the IAA only limitations for nostalgic purposes. I still buy these emulations IF I catch the initial sale, but in a $30 app I want a lot more than an emulation. Just my 2 cents.
Not to sidetrack this thread, but how is the OB-Xd ? I don't hear much about it, and it didn't get the best Apple Store review, but my friend says it's good. I love Zeon.
one of best sounding synths on iOS .. top quality everything .. no compromises ..
The bad ratings probably have to do with the initial releases having issues with param automation and preset management.
Thanks:)
Sure. All I'm saying is there's room for both types of apps. Not everything has to be everyone's cup of tea.
Either type is fine with me.
However, for me there's a problem with Pro A5 right now. Are the issues @dendy has pointed out (other than the mere fact of filter stepping) the result of "loving accuracy"? Or are they the result of shortcomings in the implementation?
For me the issue is somewhat psychological, because the whole idea of using a retro-implementation is psychological.
If this is how a real Prophet 5 worked, then I will avoid filter sweeps and filter mods with high resonance, and think to myself, "I'm using this synth just how people used to." If a real Prophet 5 didn't work this way, then I will avoid those actions, and possibly using the Pro A5 itself, thinking, "This implementation has some issues (and should be fixed)."
Right now, it's not clear to me what the answer is. I hope someone can clarify.
Same.
Agreed.
I’m just voting for upgraded & improved features.
Nobody asked and nobody cares, but I did my job giving some feedback. I’m looking forward to a new laptop & Omnishpere 3 for Christmas, so I’m not too concerned about iOS apps.
In standalone I’m able to easily access the setting to change the MIDI channel…but in AUM inside the AUv3 UI it appears to be missing (?) is anyone else having this issue? Prolly user error on my part but I can’t seem to find a way to accomplish this (I can change channel strip receive channel in AUM with no problem) …thanks in advance!
As an AUv3, most synths don’t need channel setting since you can usually route only the midi you want via the host’s routing and filtering features.
A real Prophet 5 has the VCF cutoff knob quantized to semitones (back then I’m sure a choice related to limited AD resolution), imho it would make a lot of sense to have a “modern” option of smooth cutoff knob behaviour. Modulation, however, on the original comes directly* from analogue sources (envs, LFO, VCO) and so was always smooth.
Where are you hearing stepping other than cutoff knob movements?
So a few days later I guess I've become more friends with the app.
The auv3 in Drambo works way better for me somehow, the aliasing isn't as prominent and there seems to be less knob bugs than in standalone app.
I appologise if I seemed too critical at first, but I think my arguments were still valid about the pure tones and bugs. The upper tones with pure saw still get quite a lot of aliasing noise..
@AnalogMatthew First things I'd really like to see fixed are:
1) The noise phasing still irks me quite much, I like noisey, tapey sounds and the phasing "pipe" effect is quite bad, as multiple people have showcased here..
Starting the noise engine or sample at random point every trigger should fix the issue easily?
2) As others have said the envelopes pop and crackle with long release sounds. And I don't mean like the good prophet envelope sound, but the crackles start when the voices are full and start stealing- then there are really short digital clips.
For me they are really prominent with closed filter sound like when you dial in "Everything.." following example of Alex Ball tutorial https://youtu.be/DvRv0TlMI5M?si=lI8Y3C3fImS21GY-
3) The mono and legato weirds out quite often, it sometime is duophonic, sometimes OSC A is playing mono but OSC B plays previous voice tail etc. Needs to be overlooked.