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But wait, there's more! Free steak knives!
To: Orfium Support support@orfium.com
Date: 10:05 GMT 09 Dec 2016
From: decibelle
Subject: Re: [Orfium] Re: Delete my account please
Hello Drew Orfium Hexagon,
Due to your confusion, my explanation has turned out to be kind of long. I beg your indulgence to please bear with me up to my sign off.
Re my account deletion:
I'm still seeing my account page on your website, my account hyperlink is still live, and even if the content associated with it is minimal, the account page is nevertheless still showing text content belonging to it:
https://www.orfium.com/profile/decibelle
Inactive account
This account is currently inactive. If you are the owner of the account and you think this is an error send us an email at [email protected] and we' ll get back to you as soon as possible
========
Please kill all code at that link so it shows a 404 Not Found error.
Regarding your claimed unsureness about the terms governing your website:
I myself am unsure how your lack of knowledge about your website terms can persist, when all the answers you needed were freely available where I referred you to read, twice, and now a third time, within those very terms themselves. It is indeed a mystery to me.
In good faith, I quote, direct copy/paste from your own terms, with [...] marked cuts for length, and a clickable hyperlink for your convenience:
https://www.orfium.com/terms-of-use/
2.1 License. Subject to these Terms, Company grants you a [...] revocable, limited license to use and access the Site solely for your own personal, noncommercial use.
3 USER CONTENT
3.2 License.
a You hereby grant [...] to Company an irrevocable, nonexclusive, royalty-free and fully paid, worldwide license to reproduce, distribute, publicly display and perform, prepare derivative works of, incorporate into other works, and otherwise use and exploit your User Content, and to grant sublicenses of the foregoing rights [...]
You hereby irrevocably waive (and agree to cause to be waived) any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to your User Content.
========
If you are still unsure how I think your terms are exploitative, you may find your legal advisors and/or the author of your terms helpful, as would reading the terms, carefully. I beg you to read them. Seriously, begging.
And I also am begging you to delete all code at https://www.orfium.com/profile/decibelle . Please.
Considering alternate approaches to this problem will pain me. It really will. But any further association with me from the Orfium website will force me to go there. I need my association with your website to cease quite completely.
I'm begging for your assistance. Please.
Sincerely, with hope,
decibelle
Are these updates of any interest to anybody?
Should I stop spamming them?
I'm reading. Keep it coming.
Awesome, thank you, was feeling a bit like I was talking to myself, especially considering the extreme unresponsiveness of Drew Orfium Hexagon.
I strongly suspect bad faith dealing, like,
"I don't understand why you think we aren't awesome and nice to artists and are really greedy exploiters, which we already know but try to hide so why don't you tell us exactly how you found out we suck so we can hide it better next time"
... sort of thing.
Oh my holy mother of all things sandwiches, Drew is totally phallussing me around, like, purposefully!
He is not only co-founder and president of Orfium, he also has a law degree and most likely wrote those thieving misspelt terms himself, in my opinion that alleged scumbag.
Check this out:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewdelis
He's an amputee from a car accident and apparently enjoys what some may call "giving back to the community"
https://www.swimwithmike.org/recipients-2/alumni-recipients/drew-delis/
He is not a legally practicing attorney, being absent from the California State Bar Assn
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/MemberSearch/QuickSearch?FreeText=drew+delis&x=0&y=0&SoundsLike=false
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/MemberSearch/QuickSearch?FreeText=Andrew delis
Ok the whole intent behind this endeavour looks to me like a big steaming pile of hairy sweaty excrement.with extra excrement.
I saw a twitter exchange between our Orfium friend and Cory Doctorow. I'm not on twitter and his twitter profile suggests email, so I looked, found his email address, and wrote to him.
I included my real first name so I made small edits to remove it. Otherwise this is a direct copy/paste of what I sent.
=====
From: decibelle
Date: 19:22 09 Dec 2016
To: Cory Doctorow
Subject: Orfium & Drew Delis
Hello Mr Doctorow,
I had some problems with Orfium.com so I started researching them. I saw this twitter exchange with @drewdelis .
https://mobile.twitter.com/doctorow/status/805189446832226304
So I thought you might be interested in some of the info I found.
First — The Terms
These are only a few of the many possibly illegal and certainly the most extreme exploitative clauses I've ever seen, all from Orfium.com 's Terms. I used [...] to indicate cuts for length. I highly recommend you read the Terms carefully in full for yourself:
https://www.orfium.com/terms-of-use/
2.1 License. Subject to these Terms, Company grants you a [...] revocable, limited license to use and access the Site solely for your own personal, noncommercial use.
3 USER CONTENT
3.2 License.
a You hereby grant [...] to Company an irrevocable, nonexclusive, royalty-free and fully paid, worldwide license to reproduce, distribute, publicly display and perform, prepare derivative works of, incorporate into other works, and otherwise use and exploit your User Content, and to grant sublicenses of the foregoing rights [...]
You hereby irrevocably waive (and agree to cause to be waived) any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to your User Content.
=====
Every user must agree to these when signing up to Orfium.com . They explicitly apply in perpetuity even after accounts are cancelled.
Second — Drew Delis
I found he has a law degree from Pepperdine University Law School, but is not a member of the California State Bar
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewdelis
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/MemberSearch/QuickSearch?FreeText=Andrew delis
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/MemberSearch/QuickSearch?FreeText=drew+delis&x=0&y=0&SoundsLike=false
The Terms have a few spelling errors so am surmising he is likely to have written them himself.
He has been extremely disingenuous with me, refusing to delete my account and maintaining my unwanted connection with the site. I have explicitly notified him my participation with his terms is ceasing right now with time and date. Yet instead of a 404 error, my account still shows as live/inactive.
https://www.orfium.com/profile/decibelle
5 emails later and in what seems to me like bad faith, Drew Delis is claiming my account is removed when I can see it is still there, repeatedly claiming to not understand my issues with the terms, and refusing to read what I now more and more strongly suspect he wrote.
I have been documenting my experiences with Orfium and Drew Delis on the Audiobus forum with other iOS audio specialists:
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/293042/#Comment_293042
If you care about your work's attribution and all other copyrights Drew Delis is now entitled to use and sublicense to others, you might want to reconsider the extent of your participation on Orfium.com .
Thank you very much for reading.
Most sincerely,
decibelle
Response from Cory Doctorow:
In other news, my account is still live/inactive, so far with only silence from Drew Orfium Hexacorp.
Not impressed, Drew, not impressed.
This is... interesting!
To be honest I don't know what to make of the whole Orfium thing - I kind of wished them well - they did seem to be trying to offer something new which could have been useful to me. But I must admit to not being 100%happy with the licence as posted. I have about 0% experience here but that does seem somewhat draconian form how its presented. However, to be honest, I haven't _actually _read the Soundclound/Bandcamp (apart form the "we aren't evil" type statements). And I certainly haven't read the iTunes agreement (has anyone?) - there could be anything buried in there :-)
I shall wait the next installment with interest.
@kitejan , Thank you so much for the feedback. I've read most of the Big Corpo agreements at least once, even (maybe especially?) the ridiculous ones.
Even Twitter which actually steals work by stripping the origin info in metadata, even Twitter's agreement does not explicitly state their intention to conceal creators' identities whilst sub-licensing all their rights to others. Nobody explicitly requires creators to waive their moral rights. They can't, because in most jurisdictions to do so is against the law.
Nobody does that! Not even eBay. Or if they do, I haven't seen it. And eBay's agreements are nearly impossible to completely find, let alone read in full. They're in so many long wall 'o text parts. But I honestly think I did read it all and I saw nothing, I mean nothing like this in there.
Neither Twitter nor eBay explicitly extend their terms beyond termination of accounts, without limits?! Omg, clauses explicitly persisting unrestrictedly to the future?!
The only (legitimate) reason I can think of for long terms like that is for children's come of age or education trusts, wills and the like. And even those specify the date those arrangements come to term.
Nobody else I've seen puts their intentions to steal and/or plagiarise, and/or so far beyond account termination in such bald terms. Because if a private individual takes the rights to GRANT permissions for others' works whilst explicitly concealing accurate attribution data, if that isn't as near as dammit to claiming/advertising ownership as theirs, and if that isn't plagiarism then I don't know what is
Seriously, I think that any brain that can realistically consider these terms acceptable enough to put in writing, advertise and use, let alone realistically consider them better than everybody else's(?!), must in some way have something fundamentally wrong and broken there.
I cannot imagine where Mr Delis got the example prompting him to consider all this doodoo a good idea. It gives me a bewilder, and a srs srs sad.
New email from Mr Delis!
And o. m. f. g. can you believe that there is apparently yet another agreement?!
This one's NINE A4-sized pages are of course jam packed to the gills with cramped tiny wall o'text. This new legal doodoo is apparently just for artists, an extra special oh-so-cherished "content provider" doodoo.
The text of this new agreement alleges that it can be found at
https://www.orfium.com/legal
But of course, no such luck. Despite all my previous Orfium searching, this agreement was completely new to me. I found no links to it from any Intercoursing where. Not one.
It was hiding like a covert government operative, or like, help in a discount shop.
Mr Delis claims this is where all the "liberal" stuff is, even though the last paragraph is a bold-all-caps announcement that all site members are bound by all site member terms.
I'm so tired.
When I get more energy I will go over this new whatever agreement thing, but meanwhile I'll leave you with The Missing Link to it to check it out for yourselves.
That Orfium site structure feels like a tight scratchy polyester uniform on me, navigating there leaves me so irritated and frustrated, and could that perma-player be any more annoying?
Don't answer that.
https://www.orfium.com/content-agreement/
Oh, and just noticed my account link is going to 404 now.
Finally.
Given that this was the sum total of everything I wanted when contacting them in the first place, I guess Mr Delis must've just forgotten to mention it.
Welcome to the next installment of the Orfium Drew Delis Hexacorp saga!
Popcorn is available in the foyer.
==========
From: decibelle
Date: 17:05 GMT 11 Dec 2016
To: Orfium Support support@orfium.com
Subject: Re: [Orfium] Re: Delete my account please
Hello Mr Delis,
Thank you for finally deleting my account at last, and modifying your "How do I delete my account" FAQ.
Phew. I'm so glad that's done.
And thank you for showing me your Content Provider Agreement. With a few exceptions, I agree that in general it does look pretty inviting. However, notwithstanding my other previously mentioned site document issues which are still problematic for me, I did find one insurmountable issue here.
Before I ever contacted you, I carefully combed your site explicitly looking for documents like your Content Provider Agreement. I never saw it.
And my google web search just now for
"orfium content provider agreement digital media"
(without quotation marks) yielded links only to your Micro Agreement and FAQ, in which I found no links to it.
Further careful searches of your site and your other Agreement documents during our exchange still left me completely unaware of this Content Provider document. Your previous email was my first indication that it even existed.
You do know that for agreement terms to be applicable, the order of events is generally presenting/offering them, and then clicking/signing/agreeing, right? As far as I know, the other way around has a number of less-than-favourable descriptions.
Your private invitation(s) aside, how are your intended participants in this Content Provider Agreement supposed to be able to find/see/read it?
By the way, your messages have read to me as as having more interest in making my opinions agree with yours, and less interest in the Orfium website information I have been providing.
My one individual personal mind, which nevertheless remains unchanged, can itself have little impact on you or your site. So whilst my opinions are always important to me, they remain relatively unimportant to everybody else, including you. I accept that and am happy about it. So just a heads-up — the cost:benefit ratio of changing my mind is more than likely to come out unfavourably for you.
I just hope that you can benefit from our exchanges by using my feedback to improve the artist experience of your website. That's all.
And if you feel ready to welcome it as hopeful suggestions for improvement, I do have more feedback to offer.
decibelle
ps: Please sign your name to your messages? "The Orfium Team" signoff reads to me as impersonal, responsibility-abdicating, and unfriendly. And I know it's you, so why? I'd appreciate it very much. Thank you.
====================
READ CAREFULLY. By reading this email, you agree, on behalf of yourself and/or your employer, to release me in full from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED obligations, waivers, agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete, acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS"), imposed on behalf of yourself, your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, and that I am released in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any and all BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of yourself and/or your employer.
I give happy thanks for the paragraph above to Cory Doctorow, it is primarily his wording
==========
I had a thing like this going on with paypal, some years ago. I very clearly stated several times that I wished my account deleted, especially all the account details. They never did. The only way out seemed to have a new bank account and end the one I had up to then. It's a tough business out there, and most of the time noone seems to care (especially when it comes to data-collecting). -usual answer of the unassuming individual: " I don't have anything to hide, so I don't mind". Thus it is refreshing to find someone caring in this case.
/endofrant
Holy doodoo, that "I don't have anything to hide" thing really gets me going, like, ok, if that's so, then let's see you expose every inch of your skin and mucous membranes on live webcam, and whilst you're at it why not publish on the internet all your medical records, financial information and account passwords, plus the answers to your secret questions, along with your full name, date of birth, home address and full face picture, because "privacy" and "hiding" are totally the same thing amirite?
/endoftotallyagreerant