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Cakewalk - Momentum? Something new for iOS

124

Comments

  • @theconnactic said:
    Subscription or not, we already have Music Memos, which is free, fully integrated with Garageband and Logic (which is superior to Sonar, don't hate me for saying that) and seems to already have nicer composing tools than CW's sketchpad (drummer AI, for instance) despite being single track. Nah. Bring Sonar to iOS, or follow Steinberg's approach and bring "Sonaris", lol. Then we'll start talking.

    So, here's the thing--we're doing something similar to Music Memos, but for any device or platform, not just walled into the Apple ecosystem.

  • @alexwestner welcome, good to hear from you and best of luck with this but I can’t see anything of benefit to me. As an iOS musician using my iPad in a closed environment with an incredible array of music apps at my disposal then I guess I am certainly not your target market for Momentum.

    ps by all means you can try to convince me otherwise, and any updates for Z3TA+ and ScratchPad would be more than welcome :)

  • @ChrisG said:

    @telecharge said:
    I'm not interested enough to try it, but here's what a staffer said on their forum...

    @Cakewalk said:
    1) Record on your phone/tablet like you would usually.
    * Use your phone mic or an interface/mic combo.
    * You have up to 4 tracks to work with and can bounce to 1 track.

    2) Get home from your rehearsal studio/live function/remote podcast/interview.

    3) Load your DAW. Insert Momentum as FX. Drag Momentum clips into project.

    4) Have a great rough mix for overdubs? Bounce a track or record back into momentum.

    5) Record on your phone/tablet like you would usually.

    It's super efficient if you do remote stuff.

    I haven't looked at the app yet, but going only by this info I can't see a reason for anyone paying a subscription fee for moving recordings between devices/DAWs? I have a regular cheap MyCloud/MyBook NAS hooked up to my router. Every single file management app (like GoodReader etc) can upload audio files to that. Even from outside your home network. So when I sit down in front of my DAW on the PC I just grab the files, if they sucketh too much and need iOS spit n polish, I just grab them back on the iPad. I'm gonna have a look at the app now, I must've missed something...

    I'll say this... you guys are actually a small, knowledgeable, early adopter subgroup of musicians at large. Most musicians we spoke to aren't even aware of the awesome toys available on iOS, which I found surprising.

    What we did learn, though, is that a shit-ton of them have a bunch of idea in their voice memo app--ideas that just sit there and go nowhere.

    So... many of you have already solved this problem, and that's great. Momentum may not be that useful to you. But there are many more musicians who aren't as dialed in to what you guys have figured out.

  • @Beathoven said:
    Great, it is another “music ideas sketch pad”.

    This is bad business on Cakewalk’s part. They clearly don’t have a clue about music on iOS. They want to charge $99 a year for something that you can already do with existing apps that cost a few $s one off payment or are perhaps even gratis.

    If nothing else, it’s frustrating to see a big hitter like Cakewalk wasting their time with this crap when they could’ve produced something useful and innovative.

    I think we have, but we're not explaining it well enough, or we haven't yet checked the boxes you're interested in.

  • @ElektrikDiva said:
    It’s hard to get excited about any new Cakewalk release until the Z3ta iOS app gets the love it deserves. Until that app gets updated I would just be afraid that I just bought some more abandonware again. There apps are not cheap so I expect at least some regular maintainance and some regular updates. And no I am not high maintainance. I think those are reasonable requests to expect for my buck.

    Understood, looking into it again.

  • @Trueyorky said:
    @alexwestner welcome, good to hear from you and best of luck with this but I can’t see anything of benefit to me. As an iOS musician using my iPad in a closed environment with an incredible array of music apps at my disposal then I guess I am certainly not your target market for Momentum.

    ps by all means you can try to convince me otherwise, and any updates for Z3TA+ and ScratchPad would be more than welcome :)

    ScratchPad ain’t comin’ back, man. He ain’t in the store no more. :'(

  • @alexwestner said:
    I hope you're right about this being friendly! Thanks for welcoming me.

    Extra features... well, we do have inter-app audio working, but we still need to work out the UX, which is why it didn't make 1.0. Want to make sure we do it right. We're also prioritizing collaboration next for musicians working with bands, or producers working with artists.

    I'm not very up to speed on the collaboration stuff, but I think services like splice and soundly have been doing this for a while already. If your platform is cheaper/faster/better in some way it might take off. One concern is the limit on idea length, I think somebody mentioned podcasters and that market is huge and growing rapidly. Quite a few of my favourite podcasts would be longer than 60 minutes. Audio quality would be a non issue for these potential customers while the time limit thing would be important. 2 hours of lo-fi audio would take up much less space than 60 minutes of lossless if storage cost is the issue on idea length limit?

  • @MusicMan4Christ said:
    They just wanna generate subscriptions income; understandable but not my cup of tea.

    Not exactly our goal. The business model of subscriptions better aligns with the product and how it's used. It relies on a cloud service, so offering all y'all a one-time fee for unlimited, lifetime cloud sync would be difficult.

  • @alexwestner said:

    Most musicians we spoke to aren't even aware of the awesome toys available on iOS, which I found surprising.

    Nice - but these are NOT toys. Like many here, I’ve been using iOS apps since 2011 so we have come a long way and we feel we are way beyond toys !

  • please tell me it's project 5 for iOS !!

  • @alexwestner said:

    @Beathoven said:
    Great, it is another “music ideas sketch pad”.

    This is bad business on Cakewalk’s part. They clearly don’t have a clue about music on iOS. They want to charge $99 a year for something that you can already do with existing apps that cost a few $s one off payment or are perhaps even gratis.

    If nothing else, it’s frustrating to see a big hitter like Cakewalk wasting their time with this crap when they could’ve produced something useful and innovative.

    I think we have, but we're not explaining it well enough, or we haven't yet checked the boxes you're interested in.

    You’ve got a lot of guts coming here after what you pulled.

    Even if Momentum was amazing with all the bells and whistles, it’s unlikely I can trust Cakewalk again. Sorry.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @alexwestner said:
    Not exactly our goal. The business model of subscriptions better aligns with the product and how it's used. It relies on a cloud service, so offering all y'all a one-time fee for unlimited, lifetime cloud sync would be difficult.

    Is the cloud a requirement for Momentum to work? If not, maybe offer a non-subscripton, non-cloud option that only allows transfers directly to and from the device.

  • ALBALB
    edited October 2017

    Ok - seems like it’s for people who are not very knowledgeable about what an iPad can already do. I guess if someone did already know, they would use cheaper, better-featured alternatives. That doesn’t fit this forum. I don't want to be nasty, but it seems like it's for suckers.

    Time to move on, nothing to see here.

  • @alexwestner said:
    Tons of research went into this platform, working directly with customers from our target market. I think there's more potential in this product than we're conveying right now.

    >

    So, your research is really telling you that musicians want to subscribe to something that people here are saying they find poor, don’t need, and won’t buy?

    This forum is the single best market research resource for IOS music you could wish for, including everyone from enthusiastic newcomers to those who have been making music for decades. Yet you have clearly not made use of it, and apparently don’t even have an app, but a platform! I’m sorry, but this is a ridiculous claim.

  • @alexwestner said:

    @ElektrikDiva said:
    It’s hard to get excited about any new Cakewalk release until the Z3ta iOS app gets the love it deserves. Until that app gets updated I would just be afraid that I just bought some more abandonware again. There apps are not cheap so I expect at least some regular maintainance and some regular updates. And no I am not high maintainance. I think those are reasonable requests to expect for my buck.

    Understood, looking into it again.

    It’s not just iOS where cakewalk have left products hanging. What happened to music creator 7 ? Now the link on your website goes to Sonar Home Studio.

  • edited October 2017

    @alexwestner said:

    @telecharge said:

    @alexwestner said:
    Wow, so much hate...

    I can help answer your questions about Momentum. Lots to go through here...

    Alex from Cakewalk

    Think of it as tough love, and you might learn something from people who have been making music with mobile devices for years.

    First question: Why should we buy any Cakewalk app when it looks like you've abandoned your previous apps?

    I'm sure I'll learn something! I hope to learn a lot from you guys.

    That is a good question, though, and one decided before I re-joined the company last November. The "easy" answer is the business just wasn't there. I remember that from working at iZotope last and talking to tons of iOS app developers--unless you're a 1- or 2- person company, there just isn't enough $ in selling apps.

    Just to add my ten pence to this....I think you need to bear in mind iOS musicians are a pretty savvy bunch, and if they see an app is badly supported - bugs, slow or no updating....then they won't buy it, and that will also have a knock-on effect on their other iOS products.

    I've been eyeing up Z3ta for over a year, but the lack of support for it has stopped me buying. So that's at least one sale you've lost, and I'm sure it's not the only one.

    Chicken and egg - if you don't put the leg-work in you won't get the sales. And bear in mind bad experiences with your iOS products could sour sales of your desktop software.

    Chicken, eggs and brand loyalty building.

  • @tja said:

    @Beathoven said:

    @Trueyorky said:
    @alexwestner welcome, good to hear from you and best of luck with this but I can’t see anything of benefit to me. As an iOS musician using my iPad in a closed environment with an incredible array of music apps at my disposal then I guess I am certainly not your target market for Momentum.

    ps by all means you can try to convince me otherwise, and any updates for Z3TA+ and ScratchPad would be more than welcome :)

    ScratchPad ain’t comin’ back, man. He ain’t in the store no more. :'(

    I can see it in the App Store!

    Just checked. Still can’t see it. May just be a glitch, then.

  • @Beathoven said:

    @tja said:

    @Beathoven said:

    @Trueyorky said:
    @alexwestner welcome, good to hear from you and best of luck with this but I can’t see anything of benefit to me. As an iOS musician using my iPad in a closed environment with an incredible array of music apps at my disposal then I guess I am certainly not your target market for Momentum.

    ps by all means you can try to convince me otherwise, and any updates for Z3TA+ and ScratchPad would be more than welcome :)

    ScratchPad ain’t comin’ back, man. He ain’t in the store no more. :'(

    I can see it in the App Store!

    Just checked. Still can’t see it. May just be a glitch, then.

    @Beathoven look at Cakewalk developer apps you should see it listed.

  • edited October 2017

    @Trueyorky said:

    @Beathoven said:

    @tja said:

    @Beathoven said:

    @Trueyorky said:
    @alexwestner welcome, good to hear from you and best of luck with this but I can’t see anything of benefit to me. As an iOS musician using my iPad in a closed environment with an incredible array of music apps at my disposal then I guess I am certainly not your target market for Momentum.

    ps by all means you can try to convince me otherwise, and any updates for Z3TA+ and ScratchPad would be more than welcome :)

    ScratchPad ain’t comin’ back, man. He ain’t in the store no more. :'(

    I can see it in the App Store!

    Just checked. Still can’t see it. May just be a glitch, then.

    @Beathoven look at Cakewalk developer apps you should see it listed.

    Thanks, but it’s not showing up in the App Store either in my list of purchased apps or in the list of Cakewalk’s apps.

    Edit: not that it matters but, I can now see an empty space in the list of Cakewalk’s apps with a greyed out cloud icon next to it. I presume it’s where the ScratchPad icon should be. Panic over.

  • @alexwestner said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @Beathoven said:
    I’m old fashioned; I like to own the software I’m using, not just rent it. Maybe the times are changing. But it’s just a few apps at the moment, I hope this trickle doesn’t turn into a flood. I have enough monthly payments coming out of my bank account as it is. If every piece of iOS music software I used on a regular basis moved to a subscription model, I’d have another 70+ monthly payments to worry about.

    +1

    I only do subscriptions if I absolutely have to. I’m self-employed so I have no idea what my earnings will be each month. As a result I can’t rely on ‘rented’ software as I’ve no idea if I’ll be able to afford it, and I certainly don’t want automatic payments coming out of my bank account.

    OK, that's fair.

    We have a $29.99/year plan, and you can set that so it doesn't automatically renew (no surprises in 12 months).

    Also, you can pop in and out anytime on the monthly plan.

    But if I pop out, it stops working.

    What I like about paying outright for a piece of software, is that I have the option (if my finances take a plunge), to keep it going for a very long time.

    I've recently taken the plunge and bought Komplete, safe in the knowledge that unless I want to pay for future versions with more features, it'll run for years. They're even still supporting my old Maschine Mikro software, and gave me a cracking upgrade/crossgrade deal on Komplete.

    Native Instruments will get my cash, because I feel it's a safe investment - and let's face it, musicians have a lot of choice where to spend their money these days.

  • @MonzoPro said:

    @alexwestner said:

    @telecharge said:

    @alexwestner said:
    Wow, so much hate...

    I can help answer your questions about Momentum. Lots to go through here...

    Alex from Cakewalk

    Think of it as tough love, and you might learn something from people who have been making music with mobile devices for years.

    First question: Why should we buy any Cakewalk app when it looks like you've abandoned your previous apps?

    I'm sure I'll learn something! I hope to learn a lot from you guys.

    That is a good question, though, and one decided before I re-joined the company last November. The "easy" answer is the business just wasn't there. I remember that from working at iZotope last and talking to tons of iOS app developers--unless you're a 1- or 2- person company, there just isn't enough $ in selling apps.

    Just to add my ten pence to this....I think you need to bear in mind iOS musicians are a pretty savvy bunch, and if they see an app is badly supported - bugs, slow or no updating....then they won't buy it, and that will also have a knock-on effect on their other iOS products.

    I've been eyeing up Z3ta for over a year, but the lack of support for it has stopped me buying. So that's at least one sale you've lost, and I'm sure it's not the only one.

    Chicken and egg - if you don't put the leg-work in you won't get the sales. And bear in mind bad experiences with your iOS products could sour sales of your desktop software.

    Chicken, eggs and brand loyalty building.

    Yup, agree with everything you're saying.

    Cakewalk aside, I'm also saying that the iOS app market is not all that different from the existing plug-in market, yet developers are only able to charge a very small fraction of what they could with desktop apps and plug-ins for the same effort--this is true for any company, regardless of hard they work and how solid the product--the market is quite challenging.

  • @BiancaNeve said:

    @alexwestner said:

    @ElektrikDiva said:
    It’s hard to get excited about any new Cakewalk release until the Z3ta iOS app gets the love it deserves. Until that app gets updated I would just be afraid that I just bought some more abandonware again. There apps are not cheap so I expect at least some regular maintainance and some regular updates. And no I am not high maintainance. I think those are reasonable requests to expect for my buck.

    Understood, looking into it again.

    It’s not just iOS where cakewalk have left products hanging. What happened to music creator 7 ? Now the link on your website goes to Sonar Home Studio.

    We had both Music Creator and Home Studio, and the two products and the market started to converge in a way that started to cause confusion, so we dropped the price of Home Studio to match Music Creator, and focusing customers on the one product.

  • @Zen210507 said:

    @alexwestner said:
    Tons of research went into this platform, working directly with customers from our target market. I think there's more potential in this product than we're conveying right now.

    >

    So, your research is really telling you that musicians want to subscribe to something that people here are saying they find poor, don’t need, and won’t buy?

    Well, people here were initially reacting to Momentum as a 4-track subscription-based iOS app, which if that were the product, I would agree wouldn't make sense. So no, that's not what my research said.

    This forum is the single best market research resource for IOS music you could wish for, including everyone from enthusiastic newcomers to those who have been making music for decades. Yet you have clearly not made use of it, and apparently don’t even have an app, but a platform! I’m sorry, but this is a ridiculous claim.

    Momentum is not just an app, it's a platform. That's a fact, not a ridiculous claim.

  • @ALB said:
    Ok - seems like it’s for people who are not very knowledgeable about what an iPad can already do. I guess if someone did already know, they would use cheaper, better-featured alternatives. That doesn’t fit this forum. I don't want to be nasty, but it seems like it's for suckers.

    Time to move on, nothing to see here.

    So, anyone not as knowledgable as you is just a sucker? How is that not nasty? I think that's an insult to a ton of musicians out there who just don't have the interest to invest in doing a deep dive about iOS synths and DAWs.

  • edited October 2017

    @alexwestner said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @alexwestner said:

    @telecharge said:

    @alexwestner said:
    Wow, so much hate...

    I can help answer your questions about Momentum. Lots to go through here...

    Alex from Cakewalk

    Think of it as tough love, and you might learn something from people who have been making music with mobile devices for years.

    First question: Why should we buy any Cakewalk app when it looks like you've abandoned your previous apps?

    I'm sure I'll learn something! I hope to learn a lot from you guys.

    That is a good question, though, and one decided before I re-joined the company last November. The "easy" answer is the business just wasn't there. I remember that from working at iZotope last and talking to tons of iOS app developers--unless you're a 1- or 2- person company, there just isn't enough $ in selling apps.

    Just to add my ten pence to this....I think you need to bear in mind iOS musicians are a pretty savvy bunch, and if they see an app is badly supported - bugs, slow or no updating....then they won't buy it, and that will also have a knock-on effect on their other iOS products.

    I've been eyeing up Z3ta for over a year, but the lack of support for it has stopped me buying. So that's at least one sale you've lost, and I'm sure it's not the only one.

    Chicken and egg - if you don't put the leg-work in you won't get the sales. And bear in mind bad experiences with your iOS products could sour sales of your desktop software.

    Chicken, eggs and brand loyalty building.

    Yup, agree with everything you're saying.

    Cakewalk aside, I'm also saying that the iOS app market is not all that different from the existing plug-in market, yet developers are only able to charge a very small fraction of what they could with desktop apps and plug-ins for the same effort--this is true for any company, regardless of hard they work and how solid the product--the market is quite challenging.

    But surely the cost involved in bug fixing, and compatibility updates is going to be less than the original development? You'll continue to generate more sales and keep existing customers happy. You've done the hard work with Z3ta - I've played it on a mates iPad and it's a cracking synth. Stop giving me reasons not to give you my money.

    And as I mentioned in my other post, iOS apps could act as an introduction to your desktop software, where you make the real money.

    Think of it as brand building, and probably cheaper than your PR budget.

  • @telecharge said:

    @alexwestner said:
    Not exactly our goal. The business model of subscriptions better aligns with the product and how it's used. It relies on a cloud service, so offering all y'all a one-time fee for unlimited, lifetime cloud sync would be difficult.

    Is the cloud a requirement for Momentum to work? If not, maybe offer a non-subscripton, non-cloud option that only allows transfers directly to and from the device.

    It is a requirement, but I can imagine a model in which we would leave that part out. In which case, we'd just have a free 4-track app. Not a bad thing, just different.

    That said, would that be interesting? My guess would be no because there are plenty of other solutions out there.

  • @Beathoven said:

    @alexwestner said:

    @Beathoven said:
    Great, it is another “music ideas sketch pad”.

    This is bad business on Cakewalk’s part. They clearly don’t have a clue about music on iOS. They want to charge $99 a year for something that you can already do with existing apps that cost a few $s one off payment or are perhaps even gratis.

    If nothing else, it’s frustrating to see a big hitter like Cakewalk wasting their time with this crap when they could’ve produced something useful and innovative.

    I think we have, but we're not explaining it well enough, or we haven't yet checked the boxes you're interested in.

    You’ve got a lot of guts coming here after what you pulled.

    Geez, I feel like I'm in a spaghetti western.

    Even if Momentum was amazing with all the bells and whistles, it’s unlikely I can trust Cakewalk again. Sorry.

    OK, I understand. The company has made some shitty decisions in the past, I'll agree with that.

  • @BlueGreenSpiral said:

    @alexwestner said:
    I hope you're right about this being friendly! Thanks for welcoming me.

    Extra features... well, we do have inter-app audio working, but we still need to work out the UX, which is why it didn't make 1.0. Want to make sure we do it right. We're also prioritizing collaboration next for musicians working with bands, or producers working with artists.

    I'm not very up to speed on the collaboration stuff, but I think services like splice and soundly have been doing this for a while already. If your platform is cheaper/faster/better in some way it might take off. One concern is the limit on idea length, I think somebody mentioned podcasters and that market is huge and growing rapidly. Quite a few of my favourite podcasts would be longer than 60 minutes. Audio quality would be a non issue for these potential customers while the time limit thing would be important. 2 hours of lo-fi audio would take up much less space than 60 minutes of lossless if storage cost is the issue on idea length limit?

    Yup, we'd have to play around with these things for sure.

  • @Trueyorky said:

    @alexwestner said:

    Most musicians we spoke to aren't even aware of the awesome toys available on iOS, which I found surprising.

    Nice - but these are NOT toys. Like many here, I’ve been using iOS apps since 2011 so we have come a long way and we feel we are way beyond toys !

    I totally agree! I meant "toys" in a positive way! Like, heck SoundToys the plug-in company.

This discussion has been closed.