SPIRITUALITY & FAITH: Role in your music?

knewspeak

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

You ask for data, you get it then seek to discredit it because you don’t like the conclusions or methodology, if you seek to discredit it prove it with sources and scientific methodology, not anecdotal evidence. Wouldn’t that be the scientific way you uphold and I agree with you in that.

dendy

I am very glad i was raised in atheist family, so i had opportunity to process and make my opinions about religions and spirituality in my adulthood, when i felt it’s time to deal with this topic.

Billions of people had not that luck / privilege.

Just sayin’

(i readed bible and it didn’t touched me, didn’t made any sense to me, on other side i readed Tibetian book of dead and it very deeply touched me, it was fascinating reading !)

AudioGus

@dendy said:
I am very glad i was raised in atheist family, so i had opportunity to process and make my opinions about religions and spirituality in my adulthood, when i felt it’s time to deal with this topic.

Billions of people had not that luck / privilege.

Just sayin’

(i readed bible and it didn’t touched me, didn’t made any sense to me, on other side i readed Tibetian book of dead and it very deeply touched me, it was fascinating reading !)

I was raised in an atypical Catholic school/church system in the 80s/90s in northern Canada. We had a class in school called 'World Religion' where they would get people from different faiths (Hinduism, Buddhism, other Christians) to talk to us about their religion and culture. In school they told us that gay people were children of God and to treat them with respect. They would point out inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible and encourage us to think for ourselves. All this from a Catholic school. I guess the experience taught me to be skeptical of how things are represented when generalizations are made.

dendy

@AudioGus said:

@dendy said:
I am very glad i was raised in atheist family, so i had opportunity to process and make my opinions about religions and spirituality in my adulthood, when i felt it’s time to deal with this topic.

Billions of people had not that luck / privilege.

Just sayin’

(i readed bible and it didn’t touched me, didn’t made any sense to me, on other side i readed Tibetian book of dead and it very deeply touched me, it was fascinating reading !)

I was raised in an atypical Catholic school/church system in the 80s/90s in northern Canada. We had a class in school called 'World Religion' where they would get people from different faiths (Hinduism, Buddhism, other Christians) to talk to us about their religion and culture. In school they told us that gay people were children of God and to treat them with respect. They would point out inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible and encourage us to think for ourselves. All this from a Catholic school. I guess the experience taught me to be skeptical of how things are represented when generalizations are made.

That sounds really great, you were lucky too - a bit different case than mine but sounds like good one too .. very rare though

Agree about generalizion, just sometimes it is very hard to not do it .. Fighting with myself to avoid it, and then I regret when I fail to avoid it.

I think when generalization covers >90% of cases, it is acceptable for sake of simolicity. There will be always exceptions.

Gavinski

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

Gavinski

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

knewspeak

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I can’t believe God plays dice with the Universe.

Gavinski

@knewspeak said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I can’t believe God plays dice with the Universe.

And I can't believe in God!

knewspeak

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I can’t believe God plays dice with the Universe.

And I can't believe in God!

That’s free-will in action.

JeffChasteen

My music has been described a “godawful”

So…I guess…?

AudioGus

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I can’t believe God plays dice with the Universe.

And I can't believe in God!

Even with all the myriad of potential definitions to choose from? (I have seen one with my own eyes!)

knewspeak

@AudioGus said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I can’t believe God plays dice with the Universe.

And I can't believe in God!

Even with all the myriad of potential definitions to choose from? (I have seen one with my own eyes!)

Such blasphemy on the Moons day, you could have waited past Odin’s day.

AudioGus

@dendy said:
I am very glad i was raised in atheist family, so i had opportunity to process and make my opinions about religions and spirituality in my adulthood, when i felt it’s time to deal with this topic.

Billions of people had not that luck / privilege.

Just sayin’

(i readed bible and it didn’t touched me, didn’t made any sense to me, on other side i readed Tibetian book of dead and it very deeply touched me, it was fascinating reading !)

I was raised in an atypical Catholic school/church system in the 80s/90s in northern Canada. We had a class in school called 'World Religion' where they would get people from different faiths (Hinduism, Buddhism, other Christians) to talk to us about their religion and culture. In school they told us that gay people were children of God and to treat them with respect. They would point out inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible and encourage us to think for ourselves. All this from a Catholic school. I guess the experience taught me to be skeptical of how things are represented when generalizations are made.

That sounds really great, you were lucky too - a bit different case than mine but sounds like good one too .. very rare though

yah I do feel fortunate to have dodged the potential dark side of the institution. Still, I do wager it left me with the cliché guilt dysmorphia haha

AudioGus

@knewspeak said:

@AudioGus said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I can’t believe God plays dice with the Universe.

And I can't believe in God!

Even with all the myriad of potential definitions to choose from? (I have seen one with my own eyes!)

Such blasphemy on the Moons day, you could have waited past Odin’s day.

Crom laughs at your Moon

michael_m

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

You ask for data, you get it then seek to discredit it because you don’t like the conclusions or methodology, if you seek to discredit it prove it with sources and scientific methodology, not anecdotal evidence. Wouldn’t that be the scientific way you uphold and I agree with you in that.

I haven’t attempted to discredit anything that has used rigorous methodologies and has presented evidence that has statistical significance.

Why should I be the one to disprove someone else’s assertions? That’s essentially the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

I have asked for supporting evidence for assertions and received no response that address the question other than non-causal assertions or have been told that someone has a “feeling” that something is true.

michael_m

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I have never lived there, but I know how things go. There are such ridiculous prejudices that result in things like a friend’s sister’s Scottish boyfriend being beaten to within an inch of his life for wearing a Celtic shirt while walking near the shipyards.

It’s all nonsense to me too, so it makes the violence even more senseless when it really is for religious reasons.

knewspeak

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I have never lived there, but I know how things go. There are such ridiculous prejudices that result in things like a friend’s sister’s Scottish boyfriend being beaten to within an inch of his life for wearing a Celtic shirt while walking near the shipyards.

It’s all nonsense to me too, so it makes the violence even more senseless when it really is for religious reasons.

You questioned the census data ‘in some countries’ stating the answers seemed to contradict each other, I see no contradiction, just as honest answer as the recipient can give. Anyone can believe in ‘a God’ without choosing a nominated religion, but if they don’t believe in a ‘God’ or religion, they can answer that as such in the census also, from statistics atheists amount to about 20% in Europe, I don’t think that is broken down into their practicing nominations.

michael_m

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I have never lived there, but I know how things go. There are such ridiculous prejudices that result in things like a friend’s sister’s Scottish boyfriend being beaten to within an inch of his life for wearing a Celtic shirt while walking near the shipyards.

It’s all nonsense to me too, so it makes the violence even more senseless when it really is for religious reasons.

You questioned the census data ‘in some countries’ stating the answers seemed to contradict each other, I see no contradiction, just as honest answer as the recipient can give. Anyone can believe in ‘a God’ without choosing a nominated religion, but if they don’t believe in a ‘God’ or religion, they can answer that as such in the census also, from statistics atheists amount to about 20% in Europe, I don’t think that is broken down into their practicing nominations.

I don’t think you read my full post if that’s what you took away from it.

I made no mention of contradictions. What I said is that the results were misrepresented by the Church of England, which is true and this was called out. The census question about religion in the UK census is not mandatory, so instead of it representing the percentage of Christians, it represents the percentage of Christians from the population of those who answered.

Firm atheism might average about 20% or so in Europe, but lack of religion is probably much higher than that.

knewspeak

@michael_m said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I have never lived there, but I know how things go. There are such ridiculous prejudices that result in things like a friend’s sister’s Scottish boyfriend being beaten to within an inch of his life for wearing a Celtic shirt while walking near the shipyards.

It’s all nonsense to me too, so it makes the violence even more senseless when it really is for religious reasons.

You questioned the census data ‘in some countries’ stating the answers seemed to contradict each other, I see no contradiction, just as honest answer as the recipient can give. Anyone can believe in ‘a God’ without choosing a nominated religion, but if they don’t believe in a ‘God’ or religion, they can answer that as such in the census also, from statistics atheists amount to about 20% in Europe, I don’t think that is broken down into their practicing nominations.

I don’t think you read my full post if that’s what you took away from it.

I made no mention of contradictions. What I said is that the results were misrepresented by the Church of England, which is true and this was called out. The census question about religion in the UK census is not mandatory, so instead of it representing the percentage of Christians, it represents the percentage of Christians from the population of those who answered.

Firm atheism might average about 20% or so in Europe, but lack of religion is probably much higher than that.

If anyone wished to firmly state they don’t believe in a God or religion they clearly could represent that opinion if they wanted.

That percentage was only about 20% in Europe, if you have any dataset to offer, then please share it, I can only summarise based on data we have available.

michael_m

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I have never lived there, but I know how things go. There are such ridiculous prejudices that result in things like a friend’s sister’s Scottish boyfriend being beaten to within an inch of his life for wearing a Celtic shirt while walking near the shipyards.

It’s all nonsense to me too, so it makes the violence even more senseless when it really is for religious reasons.

You questioned the census data ‘in some countries’ stating the answers seemed to contradict each other, I see no contradiction, just as honest answer as the recipient can give. Anyone can believe in ‘a God’ without choosing a nominated religion, but if they don’t believe in a ‘God’ or religion, they can answer that as such in the census also, from statistics atheists amount to about 20% in Europe, I don’t think that is broken down into their practicing nominations.

I don’t think you read my full post if that’s what you took away from it.

I made no mention of contradictions. What I said is that the results were misrepresented by the Church of England, which is true and this was called out. The census question about religion in the UK census is not mandatory, so instead of it representing the percentage of Christians, it represents the percentage of Christians from the population of those who answered.

Firm atheism might average about 20% or so in Europe, but lack of religion is probably much higher than that.

If anyone wished to firmly state they don’t believe in a God or religion they clearly could represent that opinion if they wanted.

That percentage was only about 20% in Europe, if you have any dataset to offer, then please share it, I can only summarise based on data we have available.

No, people can’t clearly represent that in the UK data, as those who don’t wish to answer the question aren’t represented. That is the criticism of the current census in the UK, and there are other countries in Europe that have a similar situation.

Start by giving me the basis for your 20% figure and I’ll go from there.

knewspeak

@michael_m said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I have never lived there, but I know how things go. There are such ridiculous prejudices that result in things like a friend’s sister’s Scottish boyfriend being beaten to within an inch of his life for wearing a Celtic shirt while walking near the shipyards.

It’s all nonsense to me too, so it makes the violence even more senseless when it really is for religious reasons.

You questioned the census data ‘in some countries’ stating the answers seemed to contradict each other, I see no contradiction, just as honest answer as the recipient can give. Anyone can believe in ‘a God’ without choosing a nominated religion, but if they don’t believe in a ‘God’ or religion, they can answer that as such in the census also, from statistics atheists amount to about 20% in Europe, I don’t think that is broken down into their practicing nominations.

I don’t think you read my full post if that’s what you took away from it.

I made no mention of contradictions. What I said is that the results were misrepresented by the Church of England, which is true and this was called out. The census question about religion in the UK census is not mandatory, so instead of it representing the percentage of Christians, it represents the percentage of Christians from the population of those who answered.

Firm atheism might average about 20% or so in Europe, but lack of religion is probably much higher than that.

If anyone wished to firmly state they don’t believe in a God or religion they clearly could represent that opinion if they wanted.

That percentage was only about 20% in Europe, if you have any dataset to offer, then please share it, I can only summarise based on data we have available.

No, people can’t clearly represent that in the UK data, as those who don’t wish to answer the question aren’t represented. That is the criticism of the current census in the UK, and there are other countries in Europe that have a similar situation.

Start by giving me the basis for your 20% figure and I’ll go from there.

Eurobarometer Survey.

Gavinski

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gavinski said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:

@knewspeak said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@michael_m said:
@Stuntman_mike said:

for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

Where I come from, we used to tell this joke:

Thug goes up to a guy on the street and says 'are you a Catholic or a Protestant'. Guy says 'I'm a jew'. Thug goes: 'Aye, but are ye a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?' 😂

And oh yeah, I can relate to this story. I mean there used to be people going around the pubs collecting for the IRs etc. I remember a guy asking me on the street what religion I was and me saying, I don't really believe in God any more. He punched me in the face because he'd seen me in my school uniform and from that new I must be from a catholic family, as all schools were segregated by religion in those days.

Again to repeat though, these problems in Northern Ireland are not really religious disputes, they are socio-politico-economic ones. Still, it's no wonder, experiencing this kind of nonsense, that myself and my other educated friends all turned quite skeptical of religion. I did gravitate towards aspects of eastern religions later in life but, as this thead has made pretty clear, that love affair didn't really last long either. I still have lots of time for some of the practises of religion, but the vast majority of the beliefs are pure nonsense to me, genuinely. I just don't know how people believe most of that stuff.

I have never lived there, but I know how things go. There are such ridiculous prejudices that result in things like a friend’s sister’s Scottish boyfriend being beaten to within an inch of his life for wearing a Celtic shirt while walking near the shipyards.

It’s all nonsense to me too, so it makes the violence even more senseless when it really is for religious reasons.

You questioned the census data ‘in some countries’ stating the answers seemed to contradict each other, I see no contradiction, just as honest answer as the recipient can give. Anyone can believe in ‘a God’ without choosing a nominated religion, but if they don’t believe in a ‘God’ or religion, they can answer that as such in the census also, from statistics atheists amount to about 20% in Europe, I don’t think that is broken down into their practicing nominations.

I don’t think you read my full post if that’s what you took away from it.

I made no mention of contradictions. What I said is that the results were misrepresented by the Church of England, which is true and this was called out. The census question about religion in the UK census is not mandatory, so instead of it representing the percentage of Christians, it represents the percentage of Christians from the population of those who answered.

Firm atheism might average about 20% or so in Europe, but lack of religion is probably much higher than that.

If anyone wished to firmly state they don’t believe in a God or religion they clearly could represent that opinion if they wanted.

That percentage was only about 20% in Europe, if you have any dataset to offer, then please share it, I can only summarise based on data we have available.

Michael’s other comments aside, this is a very naieve view - I explained at length in my post above one example, at least, as to why. just because people are free to do something doesn’t mean they will do it. People don’t always behave rationally. Also - have you ever filled in a census? They take time and I would expect a lot of people rush them and answer sloppily.

sclurbs

Spiritual jazz. Pharaoh Sanders.

AKA: yes it has a place.

Really all that needs to be said.

Stuntman_mike

It seems like the only rebuttal to religion/spirituality is all the “bad” it’s done in the world. What about the good? I mean science has a dark side too, let’s not get started on that 😂

Music gets down in our souls and makes us feel stuff that can’t always be explained.

jwmmakerofmusic

@Stuntman_mike said:
It seems like the only rebuttal to religion/spirituality is all the “bad” it’s done in the world. What about the good? I mean science has a dark side too, let’s not get started on that 😂

Music gets down in our souls and makes us feel stuff that can’t always be explained.

That's very true. Music is a spiritual experience, whether listening to music, performing music, or creating music.

And thank goodness for many various genres of music! So many sorts of music that can resonate with a person on a deep level!

michael_m

@Stuntman_mike said:
It seems like the only rebuttal to religion/spiritual life is all the “bad” it’s done in the world. What about the good?

Well Hitler did good things too - animal protection programs, built the autobahn system, introduced Mothers Day to Germany. Should we embrace his ideals because he did a few good things?

Stuntman_mike

@michael_m said:

@Stuntman_mike said:
It seems like the only rebuttal to religion/spiritual life is all the “bad” it’s done in the world. What about the good?

Well Hitler did good things too - animal protection programs, built the autobahn system, introduced Mothers Day to Germany. Should we embrace his ideals because he did a few good things?

Ouch, no comment 🙁

espiegel123

@Stuntman_mike said:
It seems like the only rebuttal to religion/spirituality is all the “bad” it’s done in the world. What about the good? I mean science has a dark side too, let’s not get started on that 😂

Music gets down in our souls and makes us feel stuff that can’t always be explained.

Spirituality is not the same as believing in religion. So I find this “spirituality/religion” equation misleading.

I don’t know what motivates you to say: “ It seems like the only rebuttal to religion/spirituality is all the “bad” it’s done in the world”

I haven’t seen anything in this discussion that could be summarized in that way.

I also don’t think one can equate arguments about creationism as being arguments against spirituality or even against all religion. Plenty of people believe in religion and don’t believe in creationism or literal semi-literal interpretations of religious texts. Plenty of people consider themselves spiritual without believing in a theistic notion of God. One can be an atheist and still consider oneself spiritual.

Stuntman_mike

We all sound unsure. ☮️

michael_m

@Stuntman_mike said:
We all sound unsure. ☮️

That sounds like subconscious projection.