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SPIRITUALITY & FAITH: Role in your music?

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Comments

  • @Stuntman_mike said:
    If I were born in China or the Middle East, for example, my view of God might be under a different context, different name etc. The idea of a Presence in my life might feel the same though.

    yah I just kind of feel that having consciousness (all the while at the very same time having no actual real palpable understanding of it), is enough for me to think that my little slice of awareness is just a branch or tendril of the Big G. Not an original thought but it is how I just feel about this whole thing. Sure there is probably a God. It's probably me (us) (it) (them) (all together now) (etc)

  • edited October 2023

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    >

    For me, God is a Light in the tunnel we call life. The amazing effect of Light is that it can show you paths that you didn’t know existed and give you more possibilities and for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 leading to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Expanding the mind, not shrinking it.

    Are you open to all notions of God or is the biblical notion the correct one?

    “Correct one” is too limiting for my understanding.

    understanding or idea? isn't this a semantic thing?

    It could be semantics. For me, defining God, defeats the idea of the word God itself.

    yah, I tend to use the word as like a caveman pointing and going 'Uuuggghh! uuuugh!' It is a primitive yet real gesture of a thing, equally real in the diaphragm of the expresser..

  • @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

  • @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    Wasn't Renee Descartes visited by an angel who told him that the conquest of nature lay in the process of weights and measure or something to that effect? An angel kicked off materialism?

  • edited October 2023

    @AudioGus said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    Wasn't Renee Descartes visited by an angel who told him that the conquest of nature lay in the process of weights and measure or something to that effect? An angel kicked off materialism?

    I googled and found this excerpt:

    “That night Descartes seems to have had an intense vision in which the Angel of Truth appeared and bade him trust his new science; it would indeed give him all knowledge. He rose on fire to carry out his analysis in geometry, and soon had perfected the branch we now call analytical geometry.”

    🤷🏽‍♂️😮

    “A ha moments”

  • edited October 2023

    @Stuntman_mike
    “That night Descartes seems to have had an intense vision in which the Angel of Truth appeared and bade him trust his new science; it would indeed give him all knowledge. He rose on fire to carry out his analysis in geometry, and soon had perfected the branch we now call analytical geometry.”

    Problem here is.. HE said he had intense vision. Had he really ? Nobody will ever know.

    There may be completely other simple explanation. Back in those days people in general were explaining lot of natural processes by god's will simply cause they didn't understand what is going on. If you had some natural explanation, you still needed to support it with some kind of god's participation so other people would accept you, otherwise you may end burned like heretic (or just ignored).

    So. If you get into some discovery, just by saying "i had vision of angel which told it to me" significantly improved likelihood other people will accept your ideas / discoveries.

    Again, not saying i know that was a case here. Just trying apply Occam's razor here.

    Of course. Maybe really some supernatural being materialised before him and told him all that. It's on you to choose what is more likely in your reality.

  • @michael_m said:

    @knewspeak said:
    This is just a certain Christian interpretation.

    https://www.christianity.org.uk/article/prayer

    So Bible verses should not be taken as fact then? Just individual interpretations of the various concepts contained therein?

    Most ‘religious’ prophets don’t get to write their autobiographies, often religious texts are produced and collated, edited, reinterpreted, re-edited long after that person’s life.

    To assume total accuracy would be totally naive. Modern day news sources can’t get facts straight in the present and we live in the age of information.

  • I’m curious to know what “spiritual” books you guys found useful. I read pretty much all of the famous ones. Always was an avid reader.
    When I was young and everything was knew they made an Impression, but now I find them kind of ridiculous, like the power of now? Come on
    What has passed the test of time for me is buddhism (which I found when I was 17 and is my philosophy of choice), specially tibetan mahamudra flavor, and yoga as in the yoga sutras of Patanjali which for me is the most condensed recipe for happiness in this life as there is

  • You gotta read between the lines, though, and that takes experience. Kinda sad we as a species when we’re barely starting to get wise we die

  • I can’t for sure believe in rebirth. That would make it kinda even, but I’m not sure it’s not wishful thinking. I don’t believe in god either, or santa anymore

  • @AudioGus said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    Wasn't Renee Descartes visited by an angel who told him that the conquest of nature lay in the process of weights and measure or something to that effect? An angel kicked off materialism?

    I knew more about this history of Descartes 30 years ago than I remember today. Overall the Church was highly antagonistic towards him. Actually some scientists and philosophers at that time would mention something about God at the beginning of their texts, which they knew often challenged the Christian worldview, probably at least partky as a preemptive protection against accusations of heresy. In Descartes' case he was actually a devout Catholic though.

    Some interesting history here:

    https://www.strangescience.net/descartes.htm#:~:text=A devout Catholic, he feared,of Jesuits became devoted Cartesians.

  • @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    Bible is written the way that you can derive basically anything you want from it - that's why there are soo much different interpretations of what is written in it. IF you look at things written there in abstract enough way, you can So i would be very cautious with stuff written in that article. Also it's pure fact that christiantity did much more harm (especially during dark middle age) to scientific progress than good. Historically this is really out of discussion, it's just pure fact.

  • @pedro said:
    I’m curious to know what “spiritual” books you guys found useful. I read pretty much all of the famous ones. Always was an avid reader.
    When I was young and everything was knew they made an Impression, but now I find them kind of ridiculous, like the power of now? Come on
    What has passed the test of time for me is buddhism (which I found when I was 17 and is my philosophy of choice), specially tibetan mahamudra flavor, and yoga as in the yoga sutras of Patanjali which for me is the most condensed recipe for happiness in this life as there is

    Not a spiritual text, but I personally felt I gained a lot of insight from The Making of Buddhist Modernism by David L. McMahan

    Any westerner interested in Eastern spiritual traditions would do themselves a huge favour by reading at least the first chapter of this thoroughly, and then skimming the rest to find parts of interest to them. Anyone who claims to like Buddhism and who claine6to strive after insight would benefit greatly from getting a bit of historical, modern scholarly interpretation of how Buddhism has evolved over time. Some books by Stephen Batchelor are also interesting, for example his book Secular Buddhism. I'm not sure how much he would now stand by his earlier books like Buddhism Without Beliefs. He has - as anyone should - changed and evolved his thinking through the years. Glenn Wallis is another interesting thinker on Buddhism. Most of his written work will be highly inaccessible to all but the most patient of readers, but if you find some podcasts or youtube interviews with him, that stuff is highly accessible. Again he's someone whose views have changed and evolved massively the more he learned and reflected.

  • @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Lot’s of academic establishments and scholars were founded by religious centres throughout the world.

  • @AudioGus said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:
    If I were born in China or the Middle East, for example, my view of God might be under a different context, different name etc. The idea of a Presence in my life might feel the same though.

    yah I just kind of feel that having consciousness (all the while at the very same time having no actual real palpable understanding of it), is enough for me to think that my little slice of awareness is just a branch or tendril of the Big G. Not an original thought but it is how I just feel about this whole thing. Sure there is probably a God. It's probably me (us) (it) (them) (all together now) (etc)

    The All and One.

  • @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

  • @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

    I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

  • @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

    I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

    I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

    That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

    I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

    We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

    Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

  • will be interesting when humans have the first meeting with far more advanced alien species and ask if these advanced beings are spiritual. More than likely they are.

  • @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

    I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

    I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

    That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

    I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

    We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

    Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

    Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

  • edited October 2023

    @Danny_Mammy said:
    will be interesting when humans have the first meeting with far more advanced alien species and ask if these advanced beings are spiritual. More than likely they are.

    It depends on what you define as "spiritual". When we look back at human history, almost EVERYTHING what was considered at some point to be result of god or any form of supernatural entity / activity, was later explained by science as some natural phenomenon. I seriously believe all things which we now call "spiritual" or even "supernatural" are just result of some natural phenomenons which were just not discovered and described by science. I may be wrong, i may be true. Nobody knows. I accept also that there is non-zero chance we will never know.

    Don't get me wrong ! This doesn't change anything on my respect to this set of phenomenons. I am just not sure they are result of something which exists outside of rules of this universe. They are something what we simply doesn't understand >>> YET <<<

    I like appoach of Leonard Sussking, there is not much people living on this planet who are understanding universe (on both macro and micro scale) more than him.

  • @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

    I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

    I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

    That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

    I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

    We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

    Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

    I believe that influence is a real thing and that Bible scripture, like almost anything, can influence creativity! I have personally experienced “a ha moments” after being exposed to many different forms of stimuli. Do I believe that there is power in the name of Jesus Christ, yes!

  • edited October 2023

    @dendy said:

    @Danny_Mammy said:
    will be interesting when humans have the first meeting with far more advanced alien species and ask if these advanced beings are spiritual. More than likely they are.

    It depends on what you define as "spiritual". When we look back at human history, almost EVERYTHING what was considered at some point to be result of god or any form of supernatural entity / activity, was later explained by science as some natural phenomenon. I seriously believe all things which we now call "spiritual" or even "supernatural" are just result of some natural phenomenons which were just not discovered and described by science. I may be wrong, i may be true. Nobody knows. I accept also that there is non-zero chance we will never know.

    Don't get me wrong ! This doesn't change anything on my respect to this set of phenomenons. I am just not sure they are result of something which exists outside of rules of this universe. They are something what we simply doesn't understand >>> YET <<<

    I like appoach of Leonard Sussking, there is not much people living on this planet who are understanding universe (on both macro and micro scale) more than him.

    spiritual meaning beyond the self. or interdimensional connections.

  • @knewspeak said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

    I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

    I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

    That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

    I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

    We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

    Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

    Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

    There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

    On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

    In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

    But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

  • @dendy said:

    @Danny_Mammy said:
    will be interesting when humans have the first meeting with far more advanced alien species and ask if these advanced beings are spiritual. More than likely they are.

    It depends on what you define as "spiritual". When we look back at human history, almost EVERYTHING what was considered at some point to be result of god or any form of supernatural entity / activity, was later explained by science as some natural phenomenon. I seriously believe all things which we now call "spiritual" or even "supernatural" are just result of some natural phenomenons which were just not discovered and described by science. I may be wrong, i may be true. Nobody knows. I accept also that there is non-zero chance we will never know.

    Don't get me wrong ! This doesn't change anything on my respect to this set of phenomenons. I am just not sure they are result of something which exists outside of rules of this universe. They are something what we simply doesn't understand >>> YET <<<

    I like appoach of Leonard Sussking, there is not much people living on this planet who are understanding universe (on both macro and micro scale) more than him.

    What do we truly understand?

  • edited October 2023

    @dendy said:

    @Stuntman_mike
    “That night Descartes seems to have had an intense vision in which the Angel of Truth appeared and bade him trust his new science; it would indeed give him all knowledge. He rose on fire to carry out his analysis in geometry, and soon had perfected the branch we now call analytical geometry.”

    Problem here is.. HE said he had intense vision. Had he really ? Nobody will ever know.

    There may be completely other simple explanation. Back in those days people in general were explaining lot of natural processes by god's will simply cause they didn't understand what is going on. If you had some natural explanation, you still needed to support it with some kind of god's participation so other people would accept you, otherwise you may end burned like heretic (or just ignored).

    So. If you get into some discovery, just by saying "i had vision of angel which told it to me" significantly improved likelihood other people will accept your ideas / discoveries.

    Again, not saying i know that was a case here. Just trying apply Occam's razor here.

    Of course. Maybe really some supernatural being materialised before him and told him all that. It's on you to choose what is more likely in your reality.

    As a kid I had raging fevers and hallucinations. I knew not to trust the visitations of the little people that came out of the crack of light from under my door. It also resulted in me not trusting my own rational thoughts and ideas as complete truths. Just because I experienced something didn't make it true. As a kid the Smurfs meant more to me than the Apostles so the fever dreams were tilted thus.

    Anyway, If the physical dimensions of the universe are infinite then maybe the mechanisms at play are also infinite (ie. ultimately unrelatable). We humans have done a great job of describing in detail, the grandeur of the universe; relative to our own scale of course. And what do you know? We seem to be the center of it... what a coincidence. The human brain? DNA? The most fascinating things in the universe apparently? lol, great hubris batman!

    When I was a kid having those crazy fever dreams I would have to breath deeply and 'center my thoughts', be very still to find my center and not go mad. That is pretty much what it feels like we are doing as a species with all this rational description of the situation of existence, trying mechanisms to center ourselves so we dont go mad from the furious existential grandeur of it all.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @knewspeak said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

    I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

    I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

    That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

    I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

    We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

    Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

    Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

    There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

    On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

    In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

    But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

    That’s a good point about census results, as there has been argument for a couple of decades in some countries as to whether census questions about religion are leading questions. There was a big deal made of the Church of England touting census results from just over 10 years ago as showing that something like 40% of UK citizens are Christian, but they were then accused of deliberate deception as it was 40% of people who answered the secondary question of what religion are you if you identify as having a religion in the prior question.

    Not sure exactly where you were raised, but in that part of the world instinctively answering the question what religion are you is important in terms of consequences, so “atheist” is in general not a good idea, even if it is true. My uncle (who has lived outside of NI for most of his life) asked one of my cousins at my grandmother’s funeral (at a church about halfway between Belfast and Lisburn) which paramilitary organization the church collection was going to. Half in jest, but half intrigued knowing the truth.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @knewspeak said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:

    @Stuntman_mike said:

    @michael_m said:
    @Stuntman_mike said:

    for some, the Light is so bright that there isn’t a tunnel 🙌🏽 the “Nudges” lead to scientific breakthroughs and more!

    Can you give me some examples of where religious beliefs were responsible for scientific breakthroughs? That seems highly unlikely to me, particularly as religion has a track record of suppression or denial of science.

    Great question! Some ideas behind my thought:
    https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/can-bible-based-predictions-lead-to-scientific-discoveries/

    This isn’t really answering my question. It’s just an anti-science article, and in the few instances when it does cite sources they are publications such as ‘Creation Research Society Quarterly’. Also it’s just plain wrong in some of its assertions, such as stating that the fossil record does not produce transitional forms that support Darwin’s predictions of evolution.

    Just to clarify, do you believe that evolution is not factual?

    I hear you. I do see the value in evolution, just avoid absolute truth statements. I personally have evolved as a person: physically, mentally and spiritually. Are you completely averse to the possibility of a spiritual presence in your life? Were you a believer in the past, by chance?

    I was brought up in Europe where religion is slowly dying, and when not indoctrinated from childhood belief in the existence of supernatural beings seems anachronistic to say the least.

    That doesn’t mean that I haven’t investigated, and have read the holy works of all the major religions. However, I see nothing in them that leads me to believe that any of the characters should be considered as divine. They are no different to me than The Iliad, or The Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Aeneid, only less prosaic.

    I have also looked into the history of Judeao-Christian religion, and see a cluttered past with many inconsistencies and changes/edits to the written works to avoid uncomfortable facts.

    We’re living in the 21st century where we know much more than the authors of religious works, and almost everything I hear in defense of religion seems to be grasping at straws.

    Why did you link to an article that is obviously a creationist diatribe? Do you believe what is written there?

    Organised religion has declined in popularity in Europe, that’s true, but that doesn’t leave the conclusion that people don’t believe in a ‘God’ or creator as such, I would argue the vast majority of people and included within that a large amount of people within the scientific field still believe in a creator in one form or another.

    There's no need for an 'I would argue...' there though. There's loads of info online. Need to be careful about sources.

    On censuses, for example, it's likely that at least some people who answer this question might identify with a particular religion just because they were brought up in that religion, regardless of their current beliefs.

    In some places where religious background forms an important part of social identity (Northern Ireland for example) I would be incredible sceptical about how trustworthy census data is when it comes to being an accurate record of a population's beliefs. Identifying as a religion, practising the religion, and truly believing in the religion are 3 things we need to distinguish between. A lot of polling does not do this.

    But yes, it's surprising, to me anyway, how many people still identify as Christian because, among my peers, I know hardly anyone who grew up in a practising Christian family who still practises themselves or believes the core tenets any more. The difference between my generation and my parents' generation is huge in this regard. My parents generation were almost all church goers, my generation seems largely not to be. Church attendance has dropped drastically. Churchgoers tend to skew massively towards people of retirement age or above. There are few young priests and the Church now often has to recruit priests from places like Africa where Christianity is more popular. Hmm, wonder why that is by the way, some internet searches on that topic will also bear interesting fruit.

    I wouldn’t say it’s surprising, it’s amazing, given the massive adoption in regards to technology by the population in the West, it still cannot replace nor extinguish the belief in an ‘existence’ other than that of the pure material.

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