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Ipads getting mouse support rumour! Helpful from a iOS musician perspective?

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Comments

  • Over on the 9to5mac site there's an article that discusses it as an accessibility feature. Does that change anyone's opinion? https://9to5mac.com/2019/05/05/ipad-mouse-support/

  • edited May 2019

    @brambos you've got all of our respect for obvious reasons in the iOS music world. Your opinion is alway welcome as far as I'm concerned.

    Personally, I tend to agree with the MIDI controller comparison. There are heaps of apps that are fully compatible with external MIDI devices and those of use who use it that way are always extremely happy to see when a dev puts in the time to get the MIDI right on their apps. It is worth paying a higher price tier.
    In my mind, compatibility with external MIDI gear does not at all take away from the ground-breaking touch-based creativity that is unique to certain iOS music apps. Geoshred, Animoog, Borderlands granular... apps like this have an uncanny ability to create unique musical expression that simply wouldn't be possible with an external MIDI controller. And the developers who make the amazing touch-based music apps don't lose anything by the fact that there are other apps that work best with a MIDI controller.

    I mean, is GeoShred losing business because Ravenscroft 275 exists on iOS? I can't imagine how that could be possible. If anything, a standard MIDI controlled app just magnifies the beauty and unique strengths of a good touch-based app.

    The mouse/keyboard idea identical in my mind. Sure there will be devs who just port over a boring desktop app but that doesn't take away from the real creative people who have capacity to make apps that provide a user experience that is unique to touchscreen usage.

    I don't see why the two can't exist together on the same device. The primary interaction will always be touch, but why not add the ability for more?

  • edited May 2019

    ...would definitely use a mouse and keyboard when doing AirPlay to a TV.

    But I'm kinda 'strange' as I love to use the touch-screen to edit samples and as crazy as it may sound I feel more 'connected with the content' when I get to touch it with my fingers :D

  • edited May 2019

    @Samu said:

    @dendy said:
    what @Audiojunkie and @brambos said .. this would be very bad thing, i hope it's just rumour ..

    An example of the kind of apps you’ll get is Thesys.

    Or Cyclop, or Egoist ...

    Most Sugarbytes apps with Unique being one exception (It has other UI issues though) have 'Touch Hostile' UIs with too small objects requiring one to use either an Apple Pencil or the clunky Double Tap to Zoom & Pan Around UI which to me is more like insanity :)

    I've stayed away from Aparillo simply because I can't stand the Sugarbyte UIs.
    It's like 'kindergarten for adults' but in a very, very bad way...

    Personally, I think Sugar Bytes’ UIs are amongst the best on this platform. I don’t think they’re any more “touch hostile” than anything else out there (with the exception of Thesys, which is a direct port of an old desktop app and does need a complete rethink [fingers crossed for that]). Design is subjective and I think Egoist and Aparillo are sublime in both form and function; as perfect as it gets. I also think we’re lucky to have Sugar Bytes supporting the iOS platform and the AUv3 standard. I’ve certainly had my monies worth out of their apps more than any other developer. But, like most things, it’s all subjective and I could understand why some folks would disagree with my opinion.

    As for the mouse issue; I don’t understand why you would buy a touchscreen device and want the option of a mouse interface. I find interacting with my devices by touch just as accurate but so much more natural and immediate than using a mouse. But that’s my opinion

  • edited May 2019

    @Beathoven said:
    As for the mouse issue; I don’t understand why you would buy a touchscreen device and want the option of a mouse interface. I find interacting with my devices by touch just as accurate but so much more natural and immediate as using a mouse. But that’s my opinion

    By that perspective there is no reason to have any music apps that are compatible with external MIDI controllers, right? ;)

    The ability to use something other than the touchscreen is just a tool for the times when it helps you do what you want to do. I’m all for having more input options.

  • @Hmtx said:

    @Beathoven said:
    As for the mouse issue; I don’t understand why you would buy a touchscreen device and want the option of a mouse interface. I find interacting with my devices by touch just as accurate but so much more natural and immediate as using a mouse. But that’s my opinion

    By that perspective there is no reason to have any music apps that are compatible with external MIDI controllers, right?

    The ability to use something other than the touchscreen is just a tool for the times when it helps you do what you want to do.

    Wrong. As Bram said, a MIDI controller or keyboard is not part of a different paradigm that would require conflicting UI design. Using a MIDI keyboard requires the same interaction as a software keyboard. Using a mouse is a completely different way of interacting with a device. Out of genuine interest, how does using a mouse on a touchscreen device help you do what you want to do?

  • Single tap = Left click
    Long press = Right click
    Different way of interacting with device, more nonsense.
    Out of genuine interest, How does other users using a mouse on a touchscreen device hinder you ?

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • edited May 2019

    @Beathoven said:
    Wrong. As Bram said, a MIDI controller or keyboard is not part of a different paradigm that would require conflicting UI design. Using a MIDI keyboard requires the same interaction as a software keyboard. Using a mouse is a completely different way of interacting with a device. Out of genuine interest, how does using a mouse on a touchscreen device help you do what you want to do?

    Agreed, I am quite often very wrong. But in this situation you may be confusing QWERTY typing keyboard (which does have an iOS equivalent touch version) with MIDI keyboard.

    I’m talking about MIDI, which has no equivalent in the iOS "touch paradigm" but is still obviously useful for a musician. There are simply times where iOS music is easier with knobs, faders, drum pads, foot switches, expression pedals and piano keys.

    The same is true for mouse input. Certain scenarios make it better to use a mouse/keyboard and it is only a good thing to have that option with iOS not just Mac/PC.

  • edited May 2019

    @Turntablist said:
    Single tap = Left click
    Long press = Right click
    Different way of interacting with device, more nonsense.
    Out of genuine interest, How does other users using a mouse on a touchscreen device hinder you ?

    @EyeOhEss said:

    @brambos said:
    For me it's not about the "more work for developers" argument at all, but about mixing up conflicting UI paradigms.

    But considering the hostile tone in this discussion I don't really feel like contributing to the argument much longer.

    I don’t think anyone should assume their own perception of iOS and visions for its future necessarily apply to everyone else ;) What one person sees as ‘mixing up conflicting paradigms’ another person will see as ‘adding useful options that don’t conflict at all and can co-exist’. No one is right or wrong. It’s just a bit rich to declare ‘this conflicts with what an iPad is’. If some people want it then are they wrong to want it? Yeah it’s wrong for some people, but they aren’t forced to use it in any case...

    @Beathoven said:

    @Hmtx said:

    @Beathoven said:
    As for the mouse issue; I don’t understand why you would buy a touchscreen device and want the option of a mouse interface. I find interacting with my devices by touch just as accurate but so much more natural and immediate as using a mouse. But that’s my opinion

    By that perspective there is no reason to have any music apps that are compatible with external MIDI controllers, right?

    The ability to use something other than the touchscreen is just a tool for the times when it helps you do what you want to do.

    Wrong. As Bram said, a MIDI controller or keyboard is not part of a different paradigm that would require conflicting UI design. Using a MIDI keyboard requires the same interaction as a software keyboard. Using a mouse is a completely different way of interacting with a device. Out of genuine interest, how does using a mouse on a touchscreen device help you do what you want to do?

    I don’t get this thread. It’s like one group of people saying ‘oh that’ll be handy. I’ll possibly use it at some point’, and another group of people saying ,’no, you’re wrong, I know what you want better than you do, I know what an iPad truly is and I don’t want you to have the choice even though it has zero impact on me’. Very strange....

    You miss understand me. I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong and I never said “no, you mustn’t have this option, I forbid it”. I’m all for more options and people getting what they want. I just don’t understand how this option benefits you or the platform. I just want someone to explain as I’m genuinely curious, what can you do with a mouse that you can’t do just as well or more efficiently with touch?

  • edited May 2019
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @Hmtx said:

    @Beathoven said:
    Wrong. As Bram said, a MIDI controller or keyboard is not part of a different paradigm that would require conflicting UI design. Using a MIDI keyboard requires the same interaction as a software keyboard. Using a mouse is a completely different way of interacting with a device. Out of genuine interest, how does using a mouse on a touchscreen device help you do what you want to do?

    Agreed, I am quite often very wrong. But in this situation you may be confusing QWERTY typing keyboard (which does have an iOS equivalent touch version) with MIDI keyboard.

    I’m talking about MIDI, which has no equivalent in the iOS "touch paradigm" but is still obviously useful for a musician. There are simply times where iOS music is easier with knobs, faders, drum pads, foot switches, expression pedals and piano keys.

    The same is true for mouse input. Certain scenarios make it better to use a mouse/keyboard and it is only a good thing to have that option with iOS not just Mac/PC.

    I’m not confusing qwerty keyboards with MIDI keyboards. A MIDI keyboard also has an iOS touch version.

  • @EyeOhEss said:

    @Beathoven said:

    @Turntablist said:
    Single tap = Left click
    Long press = Right click
    Different way of interacting with device, more nonsense.
    Out of genuine interest, How does other users using a mouse on a touchscreen device hinder you ?

    @EyeOhEss said:

    @brambos said:
    For me it's not about the "more work for developers" argument at all, but about mixing up conflicting UI paradigms.

    But considering the hostile tone in this discussion I don't really feel like contributing to the argument much longer.

    I don’t think anyone should assume their own perception of iOS and visions for its future necessarily apply to everyone else ;) What one person sees as ‘mixing up conflicting paradigms’ another person will see as ‘adding useful options that don’t conflict at all and can co-exist’. No one is right or wrong. It’s just a bit rich to declare ‘this conflicts with what an iPad is’. If some people want it then are they wrong to want it? Yeah it’s wrong for some people, but they aren’t forced to use it in any case...

    @Beathoven said:

    @Hmtx said:

    @Beathoven said:
    As for the mouse issue; I don’t understand why you would buy a touchscreen device and want the option of a mouse interface. I find interacting with my devices by touch just as accurate but so much more natural and immediate as using a mouse. But that’s my opinion

    By that perspective there is no reason to have any music apps that are compatible with external MIDI controllers, right?

    The ability to use something other than the touchscreen is just a tool for the times when it helps you do what you want to do.

    Wrong. As Bram said, a MIDI controller or keyboard is not part of a different paradigm that would require conflicting UI design. Using a MIDI keyboard requires the same interaction as a software keyboard. Using a mouse is a completely different way of interacting with a device. Out of genuine interest, how does using a mouse on a touchscreen device help you do what you want to do?

    I don’t get this thread. It’s like one group of people saying ‘oh that’ll be handy. I’ll possibly use it at some point’, and another group of people saying ,’no, you’re wrong, I know what you want better than you do, I know what an iPad truly is and I don’t want you to have the choice even though it has zero impact on me’. Very strange....

    You miss understand me. I never said “no, you mustn’t have this option, I forbid it”. I’m all for more options and people getting what they want. I just don’t understand how this option benefits you or the platform. I’m genuinely curious, what can you do with a mouse that you can’t do just as well or more efficiently with touch?

    It’s just a more precise pointer than a finger. Not vital but I’d possibly use it for certain apps/tasks. Less zooming in or futzing with some existing apps with some fiddly controls and so on...

    and on a phone it would possibly be a godsend for almost all apps...no more blocking the screen with finger/hand...

    I guess this is why I’m confused around the benefits of mouse support; I’ve never had these problems. I think I’ll leave it there, then.

  • edited May 2019

    @Beathoven said:
    I’m not confusing qwerty keyboards with MIDI keyboards. A MIDI keyboard also has an iOS touch version.

    OK, sorry to misunderstand. Then I think we just simply disagree.

    For me (and I imagine many musicians) there is a huge benefit to connecting physical MIDI controllers in certain situations. The same is going to be true for mouse input

  • When I need to help my father in law with TeamViewer I’d really like to have a mouse. I think since Apple is positioning the iPad Pro as a “laptop replacement” none of us would argue that the mouse is just a much better alternative to touch (working in stuff like Excel/Pages, the aforementioned TeamViewer, I’d prefer to use Canva with a mouse since I don’t have an iDevice that supports pencil, etc).

    For music stuff? I don’t know. Haven’t ever wished to have a mouse for that specifically, but other apps? Hell yeah.

  • By the way, don’t use the term ‘left click’ or ‘right click’ as that doesn’t adequately describe the meaning of the click, only the side of the mouse that is being clicked at that time on that particular mouse with the way that particular mouse is set up. The correct terminology is ‘primary click’ and ‘secondary click’. All my documentation at work where I work uses that terminology, as does Apple themselves.

    As an example, we have a lot of right-handed people at work and they have their mouse set up inevitably the way for right-handed people, and they will ‘left click’ to perform the primary click on the mouse, which actuated whatever the primary click function is at that time. I’m left-handed, as also are many of us, and we’ll usually set our mouse up the way for left-handed people, so to perform the same action – a primary click action, I’ll be ‘right clicking’ to do the same thing. You can’t tell which is which if you refer to left click and right click terms. Use primary click and secondary click instead.

  • Yeah I think it's just a logical step in the future as the OS gets deeper and software able to run on it gets more complex.

    For basic software touch is great but touch alone is too limited for deeper software. Manipulating files, editing and operation speed is all achieved much quicker with a mouse.

    In the future, how will Apple sell ever more powerful ipads at increasing prices? it'll need a deeper range of software and that's best achieved with multi input support with other hardware devices like the mouse.

    This of course isn't related to audio apps but the entire app market. Because the touch paradigm is limited in professional usage, we're not seeing large amounts of pro apps or hardly any really which compare to desktop.

    And for Audio, DAWs would specifically benefit with mouse control :)

    I'd love to see apps like After effects on ipad. But I think without mouse support it's not going to happen, just too frustrating to use with touch alone.

    I have Affinity Photo + designer etc But I hardly ever use them because they aren't as good as using mouse supported versions. If these apps had mouse support it would mean more use from me that's for sure. :)

  • Adobe illustrator on desktop has a "touch workspace" mode and normal mouse display mode.
    Easy to switch between the two. Would be great to have that option on certain types of pro ipad apps too :)

  • One of things people may not be considering is that while the iPad will always have a market with casual gamers who like touchscreens, the revenue from musical apps is much smaller, and the majority of that is stuff like smule and the other colorful "beatmaker" apps that seem to make up the majority of the top paid apps. The market for actual pro level apps is much smaller, as we have learned here on this forum.

    The concern for me (and perhaps this is partially what Bram is concerned about) is that with the floodgates opened for all desktop plugin companies to make cheap ports, we would likely just have a weird fun house mirror version of that ecosystem, with the worst of both worlds. Minimal effort would be given to innovations involving the touchscreen, along with the creative thinking that comes with streamlining your app for iOS.

    Companies would have very little incentive to cut menu diving and feature bloat as that would return to being the norm for "pro" features. You have only to look at Korg, Imageline and as much as I like their stuff, Sugarbytes to see the 3 pillars of brand name price gouging, barely functioning kiddie versions of beloved desktop apps, and ports done with the bare amount of work to be useable on ios. Theysus has been mentioned a few times, but I never use Cyclop because it's interface is such a nightmare, and who here actually opens up Turnado to make fine adjustments?

    While people are correct that indie developers could still keep making their crazy stuff, 80% of the stuff we love is being made by people who are making apps as a labor of love and have other jobs (or desktop versions of their apps) to help pay the bills. I don't think it would be nearly as enjoyable if they weren't breaking new ground or trying to improve on the established forms of music creation.

    Last but not least, once we have Ableton Jr, and Protools Micro selling for $80 plus, the average price of professional quality ios apps will rise substantionally. We already acknowledge it's crazy how much work developers put in to a $6-10 app, no one would blame them for asking 2 or 3 times as much when brand name apps start pouring in for slightly less than their desktop counterpart.

    I say all this as someone who has wished for a mouse more than once, but I've since stopped trying to do that kind of finesse work on an iPad. What we need is more options like Stagelight or hardware like iConnectivity that enable us to include the stuff we make on iOS in a desktop work flow. For the price of an iPad Pro, I got a used iMac and an open box iConnectivity Audio 2 with enough left over for a new iPad mini, and the new iPad isn't much more, so it's not like we're talking about some crazy amount of money.

    Apple very well make a way to bridge the OS gap, but the whole point seems to be for development of apps for both systems too be easier, not to merge them. Why would they do that when they could just sell two copies of these Marzipan apps, and take twice the cut?

    TLDR;
    Having a mouse as an option might not be the specific thing that ruins the ios music scene, but I can only see it allowing more crap ports by established brands, which in turn will likely discourage the indie developers who have made this scene so unique. I hope I am wrong, but I suspect we are in the Golden Age and we won't realize it till it's gone.

  • edited May 2019

    @Thardus said:
    Theysus has been mentioned a few times, but I never use Cyclop because it's interface is such a nightmare, and who here actually opens up Turnado to make fine adjustments?

    I do. Like this on my 10.5 while walking around even. It and Cyclop are definitely the limit case in small for me though.


    Thesys is the only Sugar Bytes app I regret getting due to the UI. Egoist is fine for me but I really like Aparillo.

    But yah you summed up my mouse thoughts well. Would hate for a flood of mouse UI ports to end up dominating. But I do think in the end there will be touch fanatics amongst both users and devs. I would just hate for an awesome multitrack audio editor to come out but require a mouse and possibly keyboard to be usable. But then again, not having to transfer back and forth to desktop wouldn’t be bad. I do think there is a ton of touch innovations yet to happen.

  • edited May 2019
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @EyeOhEss

    Perhaps I should have made it more clear, but I was just trying to explain why some folks on the forum may be a little leary. It's the worst case scenario in my mind, but I'm not personally convinced it will be a huge deal, especially if it's an accessability option that most people will never find.

    Also, for what it's worth, originally I had another paragraph that was about what attracts developers to ios, and one reason was to make the apps that they want to use. That part was accidentally erased, and I left it off since my post was already longer than intended.

    I'm sure that there will still be passion projects regardless of what happens, but I also imagine it would be really discouraging to release something and have it buried in the app store behind a bunch of poorly made ports.

    The larger point that I was originally trying to make was that there is something about the tactile experience and immediacy of iOS that seems to really appeal to a certain type of developer. And a certain type of musician obviously. I mean, there are those who have admitted that the mobility is the main attraction, and that is a huge part of the draw.

    My musical output has increased tenfold since I started carrying 50+ synths and a small studio in my pocket, but I think there is also a lot to say for the whole "less is more" style that seems inherent when designing apps for iOS, or at least seems or be a common theme that unites the best apps and developers.

    Anyway, it is unfortunate that threads like this are often perceived as antagonistic. I don't participate that often, but I have been reading the forum long enough to know the regulars, and I know almost everyone has their heart in the right place.

    We all become defensive about things we love, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially online. Not commenting on anyone in particular Incidentally, just making an observation.

  • Tom Boger (Sr. Director of Mac product Marketing at Apple) references this grid from old Steve Jobs keynote as the still Main Rule to place products.

    Maybe the mouse as assistive tool addition could be the testing waters for making iOS more professional from Apple’s POV which usually means anything but music. If Apple considered iOS a true pro platform for music Mainstage/Logic will be released... but maybe they come someday.
    ATM Mainstage is advertised with new mac minis but Apple is known to be that contradictory (better said sell everything to everyone)

    Photoshop port is still a gimmick since it’s made for shown iPad pro cpu power but not a tool which professionals are going to get in a breath. Mouse (and Filesystem) has some blame on this IMHO.

    Maybe we are in the middle of Lisa's war once again and iOS is trying to become the One but if we look at actual ads strategy and keynotes things seems clear about how Apple see the market segments (that grid).

    So if we place ourselves in that initial grid maybe we will find how Apple look at us.
    The entire video interview for anyone interested.

    Disclaimer: It's just an opinion, well argued but just an opinion. I can be wrong since Apple is well know for the contradictory statements as strategy (ask PPC owners about Macintel) but since we live in present moment and this topic is about a rumor... well I can't stand to suggest healthy breath and release exercise until something changes in the Reality.

    JM2C

  • @Samu
    But I'm kinda 'strange' as I love to use the touch-screen to edit samples and as crazy as it may sound I feel more 'connected with the content' when I get to touch it with my fingers :D

    Not strange at all, i feel it same way. Not just for editing samples - for everything. One of main reasons why i completely stopped using desktop for anything except of coding (work).

  • @TheDubbyLabby
    Maybe the mouse as assistive tool addition could be the testing waters for making iOS more professional from Apple’s POV which usually means anything but music. If Apple considered iOS a true pro platform for music Mainstage/Logic will be released...

    If Apple would one day consider iOS as true pro platform for music, first mandatory step would be to allow multicore realtime audio processing.

  • @dendy said:

    @TheDubbyLabby
    Maybe the mouse as assistive tool addition could be the testing waters for making iOS more professional from Apple’s POV which usually means anything but music. If Apple considered iOS a true pro platform for music Mainstage/Logic will be released...

    If Apple would one day consider iOS as true pro platform for music, first mandatory step would be to allow multicore realtime audio processing.

    If it’s necessary to run these, sure.

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