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Comments
That’s not saying it’s impossible. It’s just saying why it wasn’t planned.
Again, it does not say that. See the "Why hasn’t VCV developed its own iOS port?" section of https://community.vcvrack.com/t/postmortem-on-racks-gpl-relicensing/6253 and I believe you will see the difficulties of developing a true "VCV Rack for iOS" and its differences between miRack.
@Vortico : you seem to be here to stir up bad feelings against Vitaly. He has offered to work with a mediator but you seem to be escalating.
My take away from what you have said is that you wish you had used a different licensing scheme and are resentful that someone used the source code as you intended even though they abided by the license.
As you say, the graphics dispute is between Grayscale and Vitaly.
You repeat as a factual claim that Vitaly traced the graphics, but the graphics you posted don't provided any evidence of that. And the fact that the graphics in question have changed since the initial release seem to indicate good faith by Vitaly to remove any confusion.
When one person says "I am willing to work this out with a mediator " and the response is to essentially say "I wish you hadn't written your software. even though you are honoring the source code license, I really didn't have in mind this sort of use and I want you to throw away your work because you should have known what I really meant."
Hmmm I don’t feel that Andrew is here to “stir up bad feelings”. I worry that some of us reading to this heavily perhaps because we are invested in the success of MiRack? Andrew came here to explain his side. I admit the graphics thing is confusing though. But I don’t personally register that his tone stinks or that he’s just trying to stir things up. This is the man who stared VCV rack. I don’t see why he shouldn’t present his side here.
Despite whether Vitaly traced them, tweaked them with the editor, or otherwise used them as a reference, they are a visually clear derivative work, like copying a song or photo or book. I wish I could work with him, but he's demonstrated that his goal is to dodge copyright law, rather than respect other people's work. If I allow him use of other VCV material such as the name, logo, commercial VCV plugins, Rack v1 GPL exception, etc, how can I expect him to use this IP morally/legally if he can't even figure out the basic things? Again, I've personally lost all trust in him in this area. This may be just an entirely personal thing for me, but I think it's rooted in valid reasons.
I'll say it again: This situation would be completely different had he contacted us before creating a proprietary commercial product using ~2 years of my work. Even just to give a head's up, a "I'm about to release Rack as an iOS app", or anything at all.
Um... I’ve never wanted to use VCV logo, name or anything like this, nor I ever wanted to work with you on an official VCV Rack port (and would not). I’m just giving people possibility to use on iOS what you and other people already made available under a suitable license because I think that regardless of the exact set of VCV plugins being or not being available and the name, there’s still nothing quite like miRack on iOS platform.
I’ll leave it to other people to comment on how good or not miRack is and whether they regret the purchase or not for any reason.
I agree. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and count to 10. It's clear that there is frustration and bitterness on both sides here, but no good will come of trying to make the other side look bad.
Rather than picking a side, I'm rooting for both of you to come to some kind of agreement.
I will point out: in your effort to paint one another the villain, it makes you both seem a bit immature. From what I've read of your respective posts, Vitally seems like he's repeatedly tried to appease the situation and try to right any missteps, but to be met with some hostility.
when i see such comments such as:
it seems too quick to pass judgment. this just simply isn't my observation. Vitaly has been here and has been extremely quick to offer support, listen to feedback and address any user requests.
I chalk it up to classic communication breakdown. I don't believe either side had malicious intent.
Both sides made assumptions and true to form, those assumptions led to problems. you can argue about the past forever, but there's no going back. Going forward, I suggest you treat one another with civility (it goes a long way!) and zoom out a bit so that it's not a battle of egos.
imho, bringing morality into it is a bit odd. Again, it makes it seem that someone is trying to paint the other as a "bad" person.
It's not wise to assume that everyone sees things your way (it's a big world, and morality is a very slippery subject - one cultures idea of "right" will get you executed in another culture's version of "right" - one of the many issues we face in a global society... but i digress)
mirack is great. Is it vcv rack ? No... ... is vcv rack the same as a case full of hardware modules... no Is anything on iOS as flexible or complete as desktop warez ? Is anything on desktop as complete as actual hardware..... Not exactly.
Different worlds ...
To think you could port vcv rack over to iOS as complete as it is on desktop is pretty common knowledge that it’s just not ever gonna happen with the way things are rite now... in the market, with the limitations, etc...
That being said what has been created with mirack Is amazing , to give us access to a modular synth App on our iPad that functions beautifully and sounds amazing is a giant step forward and a great piece of work and progress...
To me it imitates a euro rack , vcv rack does the same... no one can own the euro market in the digital realm just as no one can own knobs / sliders/ piano roll , oscillators etc....
Making this available is not a crime , it’s the exact opposite...
The word “rack” isn’t owned by anyone, it’sa word to explain hey, this is a euro rack emulation...
If nothing illegal was done here then let’s just move on, stop pointing the finger and sort out what is felt to be wrong one on one behind the scenes.
To keep pointing the finger publicly doesn’t seem to go with the concept of give more than you take... with all due respect to the creator of the original code.... this is how progress works, codes build up and moreThings become possible because someone came before them and wrote a code... and it keeps getting better and better as more people get involved.
Exactly ! I would reduce this very much to the strictly legal level. Is miRack breaking some laws ? Then it must be fixed ! Is it clear from law of point of view - then what about is this discussion ?
There are worse thing happening in SW developement, lot more obvious stealing of UI and app functionalities by one commercial app from other commercial app - i can name a lot examoles on iOS or desktop (but will NOT do it, because it doesn't make sense).. This is how SW developement works, every dev needs accept this as fact.
Btw @mifki did amazing job with "Basic" modules package UI, it looks way much better than VCV Fundamentals
) And performance is just amazing, i can't stop wondering how much can handle my iPad !
Three things:
1. miRack bringing modular to the iOS platform has been a welcomed accomplishment.
2. @mifki’s accessibility to the Audiob.us/IOS community’s feedback & suggestions for miRack with subsequent updates has been commendable.
3. I enjoy this app and recommend getting it 👍
Yup, and for me,
Along with others I hope an amicable outcome can be reached for the good of all.
VCV is not unique, and probably wasn’t even the first eurorack emulation...
https://www.softube.com/modular#/
https://cherryaudio.com
http://www.solostuff.net/solorack/p
Some of them even got permission from the hardware manufacturers before copying their layout and visual designs...
Just to be clear, all hardware-based VCV modules are licensed/authorized ports of the hardware.
I'm confused by what I'm assuming is an oversight: Are software emulations of existing hardware modules somehow exempt from being categorized as "derivative works"?
You could settle your differences and then agree to abide by the terms set forth in a contract, agreeing to proceed "from X date forward" under the newly agreed-upon terms, but... that would require legal counsel, not to mention a desire to cooperate with each other.
For what it's worth, I'm but an end-user of a music creation toolkit, and not a professional/working musician. I'd registered and downloaded VCV Rack over a year ago when a friend of mine who took out a second mortgage in order to afford to purchase modular synthesis hardware described VCV to me as being "like a free version of Reaktor, only instead of using 'Blocks' it has emulations of a ton of modules I wish I could afford." In effect, it was introduced to me as a way to try-before-you-buy, (which I thought was genius!) and I applaud the work you've done—both in coding the software and networking with a community of synth manufacturers—to make VCV what it is. I gather the VCV developer community also features a sizable portion of developers who—like the Reaktor user group—strictly develop software as an alternative to manufacturing hardware. I'm not an active participant, and until recently I'd not lurked in the forums or paid much mind to how or what VCV has been developing.
However... as an end user, the experience of using VCV Rack (that is: patching by way of pointing-clicking-dragging, etc.) wasn't to my liking. Not to mention, it choked the processor of my aging MacBookPro, so I never really took to using it, figuring "Cool, but I already have a license to use Reaktor. This seems redundant to me."
Over the past few years, I've found myself using MIDI hardware in my studio less and have been using my iPad more for musical projects, preferring the simplicity of tapping and dragging to control a parameter on a touchscreen over having to manually assign MIDI CC to software. The friend I'd mentioned who had initially introduced me to VCV rarely uses it either, as he has opted to sink loads of money into having the fully-tactile experience that modular synth hardware affords one. Different strokes—and budgets—for different folks.
In a perfect world, I'd like to see "VCV for iPad"—a fully cross-compatible piece of software that allows users to create/edit/save .vcv files on an iPad which could then be transferred to PC/Mac via Dropbox, GoogleDrive or similar cloud services. (I've not mentioned Linux as I don't run it and do not know what services of this sort are available for Linux.) I'd also like to be able to use my iPad to import/open/perform-with/play .vcv files created on other platforms without being limited to running it on a computer with a fully-installed version of VCV Rack on it and an audio interface and MIDI controller connected to it.
In reading through several forum threads of this ongoing dispute, I've concluded that this fully cross-compatible piece of software for iPad is being roadblocked by persons claiming that their intellectual property was "stolen" by someone who I recognize as "The Opportunist" who saw the demand for and pursued the creation of an iOS app which was deemed to difficult a task to take upon in a forum thread referenced here moments ago.
It is my understanding, @Vortico, that you have been pursuing development of VCV Rack in a different direction, one which does not include developing ports for mobile/touchscreen devices. I gather that you have been working towards allowing users the ability to host VST plugins within VCV Rack, and that working on an iOS or Android port of VCV would require more resources than you currently have at your disposal, not to mention having to circumvent limitations of the respective iOS/Android operating systems and their proprietary idiosyncrasies. However, I recognize that @mifki has made an effort and done the legwork of creating a if not the "working version" of an iOS port, and I think it unfortunate that his efforts have been met with derision by the existing community of VCV Rack users, who have attempted—and continue to—shut down his further development of the ideal end-product I've described.
I don't understand the reasons for resenting what has already happened, or regretting having made the source code available via open source licensing. The complaints set forth are bordering on "irreconcilable differences." I'm of the opinion that @mifki has displayed a desire to deliver a product which members of the VCV Rack community requested and were denied. This would appear to be done in the spirit of "giving more than taking". The cost of miRack is quite modest in comparison to other synth software available for iOS. @mifki strikes me as having made multiple attempts to correct whatever errors he was accused of, and has communicated his intentions to the persons he has offended. I will also mention that @mifki has displayed efforts to accommodate user requests made by persons present in this forum.
Full disclosure: I am registered as a beta tester of miRack, and am impressed by the pace at which @mifki has been releasing bug-fixes and adding user requests. Specifically grateful for his willingness to learn the AB3 SDK in order to implement a means of utilizing miRack within DAWs on the iOS platform. I would hardly call his actions a case of having stolen someone else's work in order to make a quick buck by offering to sell it to the existing VCV user base through the AppStore.
I can see where you, @Vortico, would be upset by someone having taken what you had hoped would remain a non-commercial project and putting it for sale on a platform some would choose to describe as the antithesis of the open-source community. Apple is notorious for making changes to their operating system in ways that baffle and upset both developers and users alike, but I am of the opinion that an agreement can be reached in a matter of recognizing that @mifki's intentions were not malicious or profit-motivated, and that a resolution can be reached.
I'd like to petition all parties involved to come to a settlement, please, as I honestly believe that this ongoing debate is preventing either party from focusing their attention on what really matters most to the majority of the persons who've been watching this debate sprawl across multiple forums: further development of a fully-functioning product that allows end users such as myself to create music on the platform(s) of our choosing.
The beauty of 'modular' lies in its flexibility.
@glasstapper
As a punter my head is spinning.
Open source releases tons of hardware emulations for free (with a future to charge) and 3rd party as well as vcv team can sell add on modules. cool and amazing :-)
Dev forks open source to iOS and charges a tiny amount for his solo work, cool and amazing.
Some people fall in love with modular and start buying hardware, cool and amazing.
People that prefer software come up with ideas in miRack then export them to their desktops for further work (and vice versa)
Everyone helps each other and cooperative capitalism works.
Now back to brexit and trump
Wes posted on the VCV forums, obviously I can not reply to him there, but there's one interesting thing I want to point out:
and this:
It's amazing how he sees it completely normal to "simply" ask to not use or to remove a component used in full accordance with its license. No, Wes, that's not how licenses work, and I refused to remove the Fundamental plugin in the first place simply because such demand is illegal. You can speculate about some developers potentially doing the same illegal thing in future, but so far I spoke with about 20 VCV plugin developers, and they all are friendly and reasonable, support miRack project and do not mind me using their open-source plugins in a commercial app. Some developers contacted me themselves and proposed their plugins to be added to miRack.
No. If you make a software emulation of a hardware module, you must have permission from the hardware designer. The panel design, brand, name, etc are all IP that must be licensed/authorized.
We released VCV Host around a year ago. Now, we are working on VCV Rack for DAWs, which allows Rack to be used as a VST plugin in another DAW. It is essentially the reverse of VCV Host.
If you've read the "Why hasn’t VCV developed its own iOS port?" section of https://community.vcvrack.com/t/postmortem-on-racks-gpl-relicensing/6253, you'll see why miRack is far from being a "VCV Rack for iOS" on a technical level. Vitaly has done a bit of work to produce a minimum-viable product, but not most of the work to create a professional product. In fact, at this point, it would still be easier to hire a different person to create "VCV Rack for iOS" if someone wanted a job at VCV, because the problems met would far exceed the problems solved so far by miRack. This is my unbiased technical evaluation of miRack at this point.
Blablablabla
I want use VCV rack on Mac —> The performance is ridiculous bad, a waste of energy and hot.
I want use VCV rack on iOs —> Impossible because things
I want do something on VCV rack —> Asked one question on the Vcv rack and the answer was “hey, this is the source code, good luck”
And, on the other side.....We have an AMAZING port on iOS, beating the performance of the original by a lot of magnitud orders and with one developer that is nice with out answers and our requested features.
So for me, it is very easy.
MIRack
You’re funny.
@Vortico first you created an amazing thing with VCV rack. I always find such creations inspiring. To be honest I dont really know what is going on but I feel you should allow @mifki to respond to your statement on your own forum.
The other thing is I really like mirack on my ios and look forward to its evolution, as far as I can see it uses open source code.
Vitaly said on several occasions that it’s NOT VCV and he tried to keep this separated. Tweets like “please don’t Dax VCV rack for iOS” state this. He tried to make this a separate product in the first place
And it should be really tricky to come with with a new invented “wheel” when creating a GUI of a MI clouds module. I actually would be interested in how one could do that
“one day an artist went out into a field and drew a picture of a tree that stood in the field , the next day I went to the field and drew a picture of the same tree .. ‘surprisingly’ that picture looked very similar to the other artists picture.. the first artist was inflamed with rage and attempted to destroy the second artists picture .. “you copied my picture you thieving ne’re-do-well “ he/she cried” I looked on, deeply puzzled by the baffling behaviour.”
you have said yrself : “ miracks is not vcv rack, it does not fulfil the full vcv expectations.
this is pretty much the only truthful/ reasonable thing i can detect in your extensive showboating of your very ‘subjective’ ( being polite there ) viewpoint.
and.. this is an ios forum and is peopled by users of THAT platform. we don’t have ‘vcv expectations’ here.
You have ( fascistically? ) erased all replys by Vitally on the vcv forum.. and yet you expect to share your ‘ viewpoint ‘ here.. I think this single point shows the ‘ moral disconnect ‘ that is occuring in your thinking.
my advice ( should you choose to take it ) DON’T come here expecting to smear Vitaly’s name/app without repercussions.. troublemakers don’t last long here ( apart from bram bos ‘s of course :] )
The world doesn’t work how YOU want it to.. and it seems at least some of that is due to decisions you made in the past and can’t change now.. so GROW UP, suck it up.. and move on to a more positive space before you not only alienate the ios community but very likely your own vcv community.
One thing to bear in mind with the similar looking artwork claims is that the original work in the example is the Mutable Instruments Clouds, not the vcv rack version and the task for the software creator is to represent this as accurately as possible whilst keeping the user interface fast and responsive and also keeping the design coherent across modules. I don’t see how it’s possible for someone to do this and the end result not look remarkably similar to someone else’s work where they have the same objectives and restraints?
I hope this gets resolved amicably. I’m hugely thankful that MiRack exists and I feel it in no way detracts from what VCV rack is and does
Thanks for clarifying. I wonder, though, whether a court of law would find use of the "Fundamentals" modules design to have been protected under the "fair use" doctrine. I suppose there's only one way to find out: take it to court.
As I'd stated, I've not been following development of VCV that closely. Again, thanks for clarifying.
From what I gather, he worked with what he'd believed to have had permission to work with (give or take a few elements presently being disputed) and delivered what you're terming a 'minimum-viable product'. If the argument are making is one that could be reduced to: "He's charging $8 for a product that doesn't do everything that VCV does and VCV is free!" I'd agree with you, as miRack doesn't include every feature that VCV Rack v1.x features. Likely because Vitaly recognized that he could not port v1.x without being in violation of copyright/licensing. However, that doesn't seem to be the point that you're making. It almost seems you're arguing that: "He didn't do it the way I would have (if I'd done it.)"
The point I'm trying to make is that he did succeed in porting more than what the Official VCV development team has delivered for the iOS platform. You may not recognize miRack as what I'd referred to as "a working version" of Rack, but please don't overlook that there are many miRack users here who recognize it as the existing version... for the time being, at least.
Frankly, it reads more like a very biased evaluation of your personal history of attempting to resolve this issue than a technical evaluation of the product Vitaly has made available for use.
I've not read the correspondence between yourself and Vitaly or the correspondence referenced by Wes in a reply on the "Postmortem..." thread. I'm not the judge, the jury, or the executioner here. I'm just an end user wondering if the issue at stake is really something as trivial whether the panels/knobs/etc. were used without permission, or whether you are genuinely upset at miRack being subpar compared to your own vision of what "VCV Rack for iPad" ought to be.
I sincerely hope that if the VCV development team chooses to prevent miRack from being developed into a product that is cross-compatible with VCV Rack on other platforms it is because the VCV team intends on delivering a fully-functional "professional product" for iOS that meets your quality standards.
Thanks for your time and for your work.
@glasstapper I thank you for your reasonable discussion.
For the time being, I hope someone comes along and does this, in the right way that is constructive to the VCV effort. I would be more than happy to work with them in whatever way they need, my own time permitting.
Something Vitaly and I can agree on right now is to recommend users to avoid calling miRack "VCV Rack for iOS", as it should be thought of as its own unique product.
I often eat half a bag of chips when I'm shopping (never shop hungry). I bring the bag up and pay for it with the rest of my groceries. Nbd..
If I was a shopkeeper, and someone was stealing a sandwich, I'd probably take a hint that this person isn't well. If they're desperate enough to steal a sandwich, they must be pretty hungry. Let em have it. What would I do with half a sandwich, anyway? I'd certainly talk to the kid and suggest they ask if there's anything we can spare instead of stealing. But I certainly wouldn't be calling the authorities or making a stink about it to the whole store. It's a fucking sandwich!
ok, the sandwich analogy is kinda lame.
I think perhaps a better one for this situation is a fruit tree. Let's say that a fine pear tree is beginning to bear fruit. the largest branches that have been around for a year or two, doing all the heavy lifting, finally some nice juicy pears are cropping up. A new branch sprouts up, and within a few short months is beginning to bear apples as well. The first branch can:
A ) go around making specious claims the new young sprout of stealing its resources, and even bearing suspiciously similar pears. (I even heard they're hatching little dna copies of us, too!). The first branch might try its best to starve resources and make sure everyone somehow knows that it was the OG branch. or...
B ) acknowledge that new growth is part of life. A new branch, like it or not, is part of the organism. Yeah, if the tree had been properly pruned years ago, maybe things would have turned out different, but no sense in crying about it.. in it together. There is room for such growth.
I guess there's also option C ) in which the arborist comes around with a chainsaw and removes the offending lil guy. Unfortunately, sloppy pruning renders the whole tree susceptible to disease.
hope it doesn't come to that.
GPL software can not be published on the App Store regardless of whether it’s free or commercial and whether the source code is made available or not, so I doubt anyone will start working on that.
Without permission, you're right, because all iOS apps must statically link proprietary blobs to run.
However, the copyright holder of the GPL software can grant an exception if asked for permission, and Apple will allow it.
You're welcome. I, too, appreciate you being civil in your responses.
I hope someone who fits that description reads this and contacts you about doing so.
I'm sorry to learn that Vitaly disappointed you and the rest of the VCV community you represent here, but it seems that miRack is building a community of its own. Hopefully both VCV and miRack will be able to coexist and develop separately without alienating one another, to paraphrase an earlier remark made in this thread.
Yes, and—for the time being—it is a mostly-functional product which allows users like myself (and I'd imagine, a large portion of the VCV user base) to learn fundamentals of modular synthesis without the price-point barricade that prevents many electronic musicians from being able to explore patch-building.
I'm hoping that an agreement is reached between Wes, Vitaly, and yourself before long because—as I stated in an earlier post—I think too much energy is being directed towards this dispute in a way that is distracting all involved from our* crafts.
*I've included myself, as I've just spent an entire evening in forums versus making music.