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@ipadbeatmaking I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the AudiFuse and AudioFuse 8Pre compared to the Apogee line.
I am really thinking about going in with a setup like this, that will work for the iPad...are the Apogee Elements any good for this type of high end Audi Interfaces with iPads?
Hey @echoopera how's that Maschine +, is it a game changer? Would you leave your iPad for it? I'm gonna try and tackle this question to the best of my ability while also quoting @ltf3 who I think brings up some great points. Forgive my long winded response in advance.
Apogee Element will NOT work with an iPad directly unfortunately, due to it being a Thunderbolt 2, not usb-c device. If you're running a computer you're all good though. And I'd actually say the Element 24 is the best deal you can get in terms of quality at price-point, period. It's actually the same thing as the Apogee Ensemble without the fancy screens etc. Personally, I much preferred traveling with it and its setup & durability to the symphony Mk1, and was willing to forgo the Symphony's quality bump often.
@echoopera what would be your primary application for the interface? Also, any microphone recording? How many concurrent streams of audio do you need?
@ltf3 What were you using prior to this? Whats your general workflow with the Arturia and what are you usually recording? Best in 20 years, that's a huge compliment to Arturia's effort!
IMO The Arturia AudioFuse is a fine interface. It’s an ambitious box that’s got a great feature set, in a compact size. It's trying to do a lot! And if executed properly that's quite the deal! I’ve heard quality control issues with them however (maybe that was mk1 and mk2 has fixed those?) and issues due to so much going on in that little space with heat etc. which didn’t surprise, because Arturia is a little untested in this spectrum of preamps and a/d compared to others, just as apogee is untested in the world of instruments & plugins.
A Motu M4 in my opinion, gives you the best value for the low $200’s, even over apogee one etc. At the audiofuse price point I’d say it’s good, depending on your needs. I do LOVE its routing however, and understand that for some, this is everything! It can potentially take a few pieces of equipment off the desk for you, if you're running multiple speakers/monitors etc and that is priceless! As I was often willing to forgo the Apogee symphony mk1 at times for the form factor of the Apogee Element, I understand this totally.
Apogee Duet is grossly overpriced at this $599 price point also. Digital Conversion NEVER ages well, unlike analog equipment (mics, external preamps, etc) so the fact that they still want that price is crazy. Same for the Quartet etc.
From the Motu M4 I'd skip everything in-between (if i don't need the routing) and spring +50% on $600 and grab a RME babyface Pro ($900). Historically, until the symphony line, RME has had apogees number in many respects, when you don't incorporate big ben clocking) and has always been a great bang for the buck.
But that symphony line is otherworldly. Nothing sub $3k, A/D-D/A in one box, even approaches touching it. Please understand, this Symphony Desktop is actually a REALLY REALLY good deal, if this is the world you depend on. The Apogee Symphony line (mk1 & mk2), when purchased at launch, literally can be a once in a decade+ purchase!! Thats no easy feat for a A/D-D/A box.
When you want a Golden Master, and have the other pieces to the puzzle to achieve this, The Symphony line just smokes everything else, and it's not even close to close. Getting access to this on iOS is amazing. Especially with the capable DAWs we now have coupled with great sounding AUv3's, limits are leaving.
That said, when you go this high in quality, you need to be ready, especially recording microphones! You don't get to 'fake' a good performance anymore. Every pluck on a string instrument, every small nuance on the vocal performance, every imperfection to your room rings out loud and clear. I've often had to step an artist down to an inferior set up because the quality was just too clear. They'd never heard themselves like this before, and it made them uncomfortable. Sounds crazy but it's true.
My order of priorities would be:
1. Performer/Performance (Too many skip this part)
2. Acoustic Environment (FIX THIS BEFORE GRABBING ANY NEW EQUIPMENT!)
3. Interface A/D-D/A conversion (Better Clarity = Better decision making= better mixes)
4. Microphone/External preamps if necessary (Plugins really can get you pretty far these days)
I can personally make a sub $600 mic sound like a $3000+ mic on a vocal. The differences just aren't what they used to be on these things. Cheap doesn't sound cheap anymore.
Yes they are fine. However...
Respectfully, the Apogee One isn’t in the same galaxy of class to the Apogee Symphony line in preamp quality, conversion, or really any other metric, and it wasn’t intended to be.
It simply bears the Apogee name, but it isn’t a good place to summarize the Apogee 'sound' from.
Although much was understood, we’re in a new frontier with respect to blending analog circuitry and digital calculations at the point of attack on the mic pre. Unison, Alloy, Slate, are all just beginning compared to the hardware 100 year lead. And also, just because things are understood doesn't mean they are implemented. Lots of bad/cheap power supplies and materials kill what could've been a great product despite well known schematics etc.
Despite all that...
That’s a fact! Agree 1000000%, All the equipment means nothing if...
@ipadbeatmaking Thanks for the deep analysis and feedback. Let me answer a couple things:
I am over the moon with the Maschine+ It is everything I wanted it to be
Learning the workflow has been a joy and I expect to grow with the instrument as NI improves it over the coming years.
As far as my setup, this is what I have going for myself:
. Currently have a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 (Gen 2) - seems okay, but I do know it's not the best
. SoundCraft 12 MTK (which I hate because it doesn't always work, and the audio I/o constantly fails)- this has got to go.
. Instruments: Minilogue, Mircrofreak, AS-1, DigiTone, OctaTrack, Circuit, OP-Z and Maschine+
. MacBook Pro with Ableton
. iPad Pro with NS2, AUM, BM3, plethora of synths and instruments...
So my desire is to have the ability of routing Multiple Outs from my iPad into my Ableton Sessions.
Now in my head, that means I need the iPad connected to an Audio Interface and then have the multi-outs routed via Optical into the Mac Audio Interface
So my question is, do I keep the Scarlett and get a Optical based interface for the iPad, or do I start over and get better quality than the Scarlett with a new Optical based interface. And yes I tried StudioMux, and cannot stand it since it never works.
This is all new territory for me, but I know that I want the flexibility of including my iPad in my playback/recording sessions as a full suite of multiple instruments on their own tracks which can be added to the Ableton Sessions when I'm making music.
fwiw, I have the iConnectivity interface, but it's unstable and doesn't always work, so that device is also out as an option.
I don't really do music with Lyrics at this point, as I'm more of an ambient instrumentalist who would probably use voice samples if I included voice in my music.
I am sure my workflow desire is a common one, but as I expand things, it gets more complicated, because this part of Audio Interface connectivity market is so expansive, and I really don't know where to begin.
Hope this makes sense. Thanks again for the hand holding in all of this
@echoopera so how many analog ins would you like to convert to digital to go into the computer at once?
12 in gear, and 8+ on the iPad, so at the extreme, 20 Stereo I/O is what I am thinking.
Hrmmm...all the more reason to stay in the iPad for everything
This feels like RME-ish territory. So you don't want to go out of any device digitally except the iPad's interface outs?
I think so. I want to get my Analog gear in to Mac/iPad (I/O should work on both platforms) and control their levels via the AudioInterface, and the iPad would be purely digital coming out of AUM and back into the Mac on separate channels controlled via Ableton...
Got it. Whats your budget?
I've budgeted around $1500-$1800 for this next investment.
ok, and potentially that needs to be for 2 interfaces? am i tripping or does the 18i8 not have optical out only optical in?
Yep. Yeah the Scarlett only has Optical In as far as i can tell and works on iPad and macOS which is nice. But i know it doesn’t produce the cleanest sound, therefore the quest for something better within budget.
But yeah, 2 interfaces assuming that the setup i outlined would work via the Optical In from the other interface.
All things considered Im actually liking the routing capabilities of the AudioFuse 8pre & Audiofuse Studio for your needs! I'm just slightly hesitant, because for your budget, I'm really feeling like you'd be happier with the conversion quality of something in the RME FireFace line. Being that you're already at the Focusrite 18i8, I'd hate for you to get a new box, and not really HEAR the sonic difference despite AudioFuse's superior routing/price. But for your use case its tempting. If only that focusrite had the optical OUTS also, you'd be able to digitally send all the firefaces instruments inputs, out to the scarlet thru RME FF optical out, and completely bypass it (Scarlet) as far as conversion goes. And also go the other way out of the iPad via optical out of the scarlet and into the optical in of the RME FF, into your CPU.
Here's a Curveball, whats your thoughts on routing all of your external gear thru something like the RME digiface
here's a link:
https://www.rme-audio.de/digiface-usb.html
Hrmm how would that RME box actually work since it’s Optical only?
iPad into it and then 1 optical cable out from it into an Optical In on and audio interface on the Mac?
Out of curiosity how many channels show up in AUM when the BabyFace Pro is connected to it? Any ideas? That could be a nice option if 12 Channels are available to then route over SPDIF Out to the Scarlett.
@echoopera This routing situation could get tricky, but Im thinking would route all of my external equipment to the mac thru it (digiface) directly.
So assuming, and this is a big assumption, everything you own has lightpipe/optical out, you would stay in the digital domain entirely, thus bypassing A/D completely.
iPad would get the scarlett and I'd go out of that via SPDIF (if only it had ADAT OUT!) and run that into a spdif to adat converter, and run the lightpipe/optical cable into the digiface.
Heres a cheap spdif/toslink converter
https://www.amazon.com/C2G-40018-Coaxial-Converter-Compliant/dp/B0002J2MV4
and another (that works both directions)
https://www.amazon.com/Optical-Converter-Bi-Directional-Repeater-ROOFULL/dp/B01N32C5GT
@echoopera
have you looked into the MOTU AVB line ? I am currently using 828ES and VERY happy. The only issue I have and I may need to post in a separate thread I do not see my hardware inputs in AudioShare
@echoopera Disclaimer: this digiface is an untried idea, but it seemed interesting..
For a more conventional approach, the audiofuse 8pre or something like that or an RME Fireface are seeming like the way to go for your routing needs. I tilt towards the Fireface. Rock solid drivers, lots of years of experience in this domain, and they don't update them often. Which keeps it valuable and running steady. I was on a FireFace 800 prior to symphony I/O.
I don't know how many I/O AUM shows on the babyface, I haven't tried one with the iPad.
I'm liking this suggestion a lot! Might be the perfect middle of the road for you @echoopera
I have not. How many Outputs show up in it if the iPad is connected to it? Could I route 8+ Stereo Outs from it over Optical Out to and Optical In Audio Interface?
I should that I was very excited with initial news on the symphony desktop but it was a bit too long of a wait, I might use my 828 as an AD for my synths and pipe them into the Symphony desktop if I pull the trigger
@echoopera @ipadbeatmaking
All outputs show up
Yes you can use it as a standalone mixer or audio interface + mixer
Give me a few I will plug it in and send screen shot of I/O list in BM3, CB3, AUM
Agreed! Yes and use that incredible DAC on that symphony desktop! I bet your mixes improve in a day, lol
Cool. Just curious if I could route 8 Channels out of the iPad, thru the Motu to then send along via Optical to another Audio Interface, and retain those specific channels on that receiving unit (to record the iPad MultiOuts into the Mac let's say).
Is this Symphony ever coming out?
$1000 street but i am sure discounts can get you to about $850 . MOTU drivers are solid I would have gotten an M4 but none were available. Excellent converters , honestly I feel these are in the same league as Apogee ( subjective of course but have had ALOT of gear over the years Digidesign, RME, Apogee Element ( which is excellent) )
@ipadbeatmaking lol if it were only that easy
Must be, She has one lol
I agree. Im really glad I grabbed the M4. Very well thought out product, and I'd still like it at double the price.
I have nothing negative to say about Motu. They are just wonderful for the price point & battle tested.