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OT: Vent About Global Pandemic Management *HERE*

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Comments

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @InfoCheck said:

    @david_2017 said:
    Anyone seen this video?
    Interesting to hear a different perspective

    For me, this video just points out how complacent people have been in terms of not doing enough testing of viruses in populations around the world. This is especially important in a world that is so interconnected where a virus can spread across the world. We’ve had pandemics before which killed millions of people in a world that was much less connected. New viruses are continually evolving and recombining with new characteristics and effects. Different population characteristics and the health histories of individuals further complicates managing these problems.

    Pointing out that we’re not doing enough and that this means that policies based upon insufficient scientific investigation aren’t going to be as effective as they could be doesn’t strike me as hype, rather we’re forced to do the best we can in a bad situation because we collectively decided other priorities were more important. With respect to Covid-19, during the outbreak doctors have closely studied the effects of the virus on the human body so it’s misleading to claim they don’t know if the Covid-19 virus is killing people or not. The video does not address how the virus is so easily spread especially by people who have few or any symptoms, a fact that was not known at the start of the pandemic. Once again it’s been repeatedly emphasized that 80% of people will have mild or no symptoms and that it’s the elderly and those with other underlying health conditions that are most at risk.

    There is no shortage of studies and reports pointing out the potential threats for pandemics and strategies to address them. There simply hasn’t been enough commitment to follow through on them.

    As throughout recorded history, there continues to be a lot of inequity and subsequent mistrust. Given this environment, it’s a challenge to set aside self interests to develop a consensus on how to move forward for the greater good.

    People seem to have an innate capacity to quickly forget the need to take action once a crisis has passed. A focus on the degree to which a particular approach will impact a given country, community, business, or individual seems to add more inertia to these sorts of policy decisions.

    As we’ve seen existing political tensions cloud and exacerbate our ability to respond in an effective and timely manner. My impression is that a lot more energy goes into assigning blame for what’s happened than goes into examining how we can learn from and develop a better system for managing them.

    In a complex world that has come to be dependent upon large organizations both public and private, we’ve also come to rely upon bureaucracies to run them. A side effect of bureaucracies is that the internal communication structures and culture that arise from within them has a tendency to override the initial goals the bureaucracy was created to serve. Americans experiences this with their healthcare as do its providers which has degraded the quality of healthcare received.

    Bureaucratic resistance to change undermines our ability to respond to an evolving crisis. Until we’re able to develop a way to manage complex systems in a more responsive way, we’ll continue to suffer from the toxic effects of bureaucracy.

    It’s easier for people to focus on individuals and direct their frustrations or admiration towards them. This personalization perspective means systemic problems are more difficult to address because they’re complex, involve specialized language and consequently are quite boring to almost everyone. Some believe replacing government with private companies could resolve these problems but unfortunately we’ve seen how their thinking can be driven by the demands of short term profits which their shareholders seek. There are many instances where companies have been able to corrupt both the selection process and have been able to avoid accountability too. It’s a difficult challenge and I don’t have a solution. I do believe that large numbers of people opting out of trying to select their governmental representatives and the increasingly rancorous divide among those who do is making things worse.

    The video is full of the same sort of arguments and conspiracy theories as we've been seeing since HIV was first identified. The video seems superficially reasonable as long as one doesn't analyze it closely. It mis-states a number of things (such as the order of events) and frequently conflates coronaviruses with the particular new coronavirus (COVID-19).

    Like so many conspiracy theories, it plays on many people to want a single thing/person/force to blame for things that are complicated or beyond the scale to understand simply. Just like some people want to know "the trick" to getting rich, being smart, living long, losing weight.

    A lot of people want someone to hate to explain their misery -- even when there isn't a simple cause.

    The video is cleverly done (as many are) in inundating you with random disconnected facts and mixing in some half-truths in the hope that you will have bought into the presenters world view. It relies on people buying into a number of things that are dubious AND it requires you to believe that all scientists throughout the world are either stupid, gullible, or complicit -- without saying so. I suppose that people who don't know scientists might not have any idea about how science works -- or how many of them are. It also mis-states some important aspects of the timeline.

    I think conspiracy theories rely on people wanting easy explanations, someone to blame, and a willingness to accept a theory of blame without questioning the likelihood of its foundation.

  • kobamotokobamoto
    edited March 2020

    @InfoCheck said:

    It’s a difficult challenge and I don’t have a solution. I do believe that large numbers of people opting out of trying to select their governmental representatives and the increasingly rancorous divide among those who do is making things worse.

    couldn't agree more , I'd add to that the hellish divide of people themselves from the very existence of facts as in the most recent years it's been more destructive than anything else.

  • ExAsperis99ExAsperis99

    @espiegel123 said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    @david_2017 said:
    Anyone seen this video?
    Interesting to hear a different perspective

    For me, this video just points out how complacent people have been in terms of not doing enough testing of viruses in populations around the world. This is especially important in a world that is so interconnected where a virus can spread across the world. We’ve had pandemics before which killed millions of people in a world that was much less connected. New viruses are continually evolving and recombining with new characteristics and effects. Different population characteristics and the health histories of individuals further complicates managing these problems.

    Pointing out that we’re not doing enough and that this means that policies based upon insufficient scientific investigation aren’t going to be as effective as they could be doesn’t strike me as hype, rather we’re forced to do the best we can in a bad situation because we collectively decided other priorities were more important. With respect to Covid-19, during the outbreak doctors have closely studied the effects of the virus on the human body so it’s misleading to claim they don’t know if the Covid-19 virus is killing people or not. The video does not address how the virus is so easily spread especially by people who have few or any symptoms, a fact that was not known at the start of the pandemic. Once again it’s been repeatedly emphasized that 80% of people will have mild or no symptoms and that it’s the elderly and those with other underlying health conditions that are most at risk.

    There is no shortage of studies and reports pointing out the potential threats for pandemics and strategies to address them. There simply hasn’t been enough commitment to follow through on them.

    As throughout recorded history, there continues to be a lot of inequity and subsequent mistrust. Given this environment, it’s a challenge to set aside self interests to develop a consensus on how to move forward for the greater good.

    People seem to have an innate capacity to quickly forget the need to take action once a crisis has passed. A focus on the degree to which a particular approach will impact a given country, community, business, or individual seems to add more inertia to these sorts of policy decisions.

    As we’ve seen existing political tensions cloud and exacerbate our ability to respond in an effective and timely manner. My impression is that a lot more energy goes into assigning blame for what’s happened than goes into examining how we can learn from and develop a better system for managing them.

    In a complex world that has come to be dependent upon large organizations both public and private, we’ve also come to rely upon bureaucracies to run them. A side effect of bureaucracies is that the internal communication structures and culture that arise from within them has a tendency to override the initial goals the bureaucracy was created to serve. Americans experiences this with their healthcare as do its providers which has degraded the quality of healthcare received.

    Bureaucratic resistance to change undermines our ability to respond to an evolving crisis. Until we’re able to develop a way to manage complex systems in a more responsive way, we’ll continue to suffer from the toxic effects of bureaucracy.

    It’s easier for people to focus on individuals and direct their frustrations or admiration towards them. This personalization perspective means systemic problems are more difficult to address because they’re complex, involve specialized language and consequently are quite boring to almost everyone. Some believe replacing government with private companies could resolve these problems but unfortunately we’ve seen how their thinking can be driven by the demands of short term profits which their shareholders seek. There are many instances where companies have been able to corrupt both the selection process and have been able to avoid accountability too. It’s a difficult challenge and I don’t have a solution. I do believe that large numbers of people opting out of trying to select their governmental representatives and the increasingly rancorous divide among those who do is making things worse.

    The video is full of the same sort of arguments and conspiracy theories as we've been seeing since HIV was first identified. The video seems superficially reasonable as long as one doesn't analyze it closely. It mis-states a number of things (such as the order of events) and frequently conflates coronaviruses with the particular new coronavirus (COVID-19).

    Like so many conspiracy theories, it plays on many people to want a single thing/person/force to blame for things that are complicated or beyond the scale to understand simply. Just like some people want to know "the trick" to getting rich, being smart, living long, losing weight.

    A lot of people want someone to hate to explain their misery -- even when there isn't a simple cause.

    The video is cleverly done (as many are) in inundating you with random disconnected facts and mixing in some half-truths in the hope that you will have bought into the presenters world view. It relies on people buying into a number of things that are dubious AND it requires you to believe that all scientists throughout the world are either stupid, gullible, or complicit -- without saying so. I suppose that people who don't know scientists might not have any idea about how science works -- or how many of them are. It also mis-states some important aspects of the timeline.

    I think conspiracy theories rely on people wanting easy explanations, someone to blame, and a willingness to accept a theory of blame without questioning the likelihood of its foundation.

    It's kind of amazing how a single well-produced (but maddeningly vague) video can make some people feel like, Yeah, THAT GUY is speaking the truth, not EVERY OTHER SCIENTIST.

    There are people who literally believe that the earth is flat. These people use their smartphones to upload their videos (but satellites orbiting the earth) to YouTube and have thousands of followers.

  • ciancian

    @espiegel123 said:

    @cian said:
    Well to put things in perspective. In the US the Democrats are pushing to continue the Democratic primary, Joe Biden's campaign was providing inaccurate information in order to persuade his supporters to go to the polls and they actually held the bloody things yesterday.

    And on economic stimulae packages - the Republicans are actually proposing (we'll see if they do anything, and words are cheap) better things than the bloody Democrats.

    What inaccurate information was Biden providing? Can you provide a source for this information?

    About voting safety when voting. I'll see if dig this out (the sources I saw were on twitter - but from his campaign. Friend mentioned they saw something similar on Facebook), but basically they were telling people that it was perfectly safe. Misinformation that put people's lives at risk. Total irresponsibility.

    And now the Democratic party is threatening to sue/remove delegates from any states that delay their primaries.

  • ciancian

    @kobamoto said:
    surely Bidens lied about something, the issue is what do people who don't like bidens lies do about Trumps 16,000 lies besides lose all credibility

    I have zero interest in whataboutism. During a pandemic his campaign lied about voter safety, because they wanted to get the maximum number of votes and that was all that mattered. People will die as a result of this cynicism. As far as I'm concerned this pandemic has proven that almost the entire political class is broken in the US.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]

    @kobamoto said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    It’s a difficult challenge and I don’t have a solution. I do believe that large numbers of people opting out of trying to select their governmental representatives and the increasingly rancorous divide among those who do is making things worse.

    couldn't agree more , I'd add to that the hellish divide of people themselves from the very existence of facts as in the most recent years it's been more destructive than anything else.

    I agree. I think many of the problems arise from the fact that in a very complex world the common sense derived from our senses can’t always be relied upon. We have to either go through a tremendous amount of effort ourselves to verify some things or trust the experts. In addition, in the developed world we‘ve been bombarded with advertisements which seek to leverage our more innate responses in order to bypass our rational mind for the benefit of the people selling their products. This sort of approach has spread into all aspects of our lives including politics, religion, media outlets, and social media. The cumulative effects of living in such an environment, I believe, leads many people to feel alienated from others and to have a strong need to connect with others who share their point of view.

    This leads to more people viewing each other as us and them which results in more black and white thinking. More and more people find themselves having to limit their conversations to certain topics unless they’re a member of their group. Over an extended period of time they can come to rely upon members of their group to develop their ideas about any number of topics. It’s this sort of dynamic that can lead to more extreme groups which develop belief systems which are significantly different than the general population. The internet has accelerated this process as it’s much easier for individuals to connect with others who share a similar perspective.

    Part of how we process our world is to simplify it by both sensory and cognitive filters. As a result we’re constantly trying to classify our world and put people into boxes based upon our personal experiences and culture. This is why different people can have a different interpretation of the same experience. This becomes a problem in a crisis as people try to work through their differences.

    While there are many positive benefits, I hope people can develop healthier responses to the divisive aspects of technology in our lives.

  • ExAsperis99ExAsperis99

    @cian said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @cian said:
    Well to put things in perspective. In the US the Democrats are pushing to continue the Democratic primary, Joe Biden's campaign was providing inaccurate information in order to persuade his supporters to go to the polls and they actually held the bloody things yesterday.

    And on economic stimulae packages - the Republicans are actually proposing (we'll see if they do anything, and words are cheap) better things than the bloody Democrats.

    What inaccurate information was Biden providing? Can you provide a source for this information?

    About voting safety when voting. I'll see if dig this out (the sources I saw were on twitter - but from his campaign. Friend mentioned they saw something similar on Facebook), but basically they were telling people that it was perfectly safe. Misinformation that put people's lives at risk. Total irresponsibility.

    And now the Democratic party is threatening to sue/remove delegates from any states that delay their primaries.

    There is no good answer to this. The stakes are quite high. But if we can keep grocery stores open during a lockdown, isn't voting as essential?

    What are the options, do you think? Postpone the election?
    We need to have smart people working to solve this problem. Absentee voting?

  • ciancian

    I don't think the problems we're currently experiencing have anything to do with bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is a necessary thing in a society that moves much beyond villages. To believe otherwise is incredibly naive.

    The issue is simply that most western societies have been built over the last 40 years in such a way as to maximize profit, and siphon off that profit to the wealthy, at the cost of all other considerations. As part of that, there has become a fetish of efficiency (be it JIT delivery chains, or having the minimum of resources on hand to minimize warehousing). The problem with efficiency, as any half way competent engineer will tell you, is that efficiency comes at the cost of safety and stability. And that's what we're seeing.

    Also the economic recession (or depression if governments don't get their act together) is going to be brutal.

  • ciancian

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @cian said:

    And now the Democratic party is threatening to sue/remove delegates from any states that delay their primaries.

    There is no good answer to this. The stakes are quite high. But if we can keep grocery stores open during a lockdown, isn't voting as essential?

    I mean the stakes really aren't that high. People need to eat. They do not need to vote for the Democratic candidate right this minute, rather than waiting until a postal mail system had been properly implemented? No of course not.

    Also the primary vote on Tuesday was a total disaster - because lots of officials sensibly didn't turn out to man them (many after getting advice from their local officials). And many people chose not to vote because they felt it wasn't safe, or were self-quaranteeing. I don't really see how the primaries can be seen as valid frankly.

    There was absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been delayed. Other than the DNC not wanting to delay it, presumably because they wanted to wrap the election up quickly (to help Biden I would presume).

    What are the options, do you think? Postpone the election?

    Implement posting by mail? Plenty of solutions were suggested, the Democratic party chose to ignore them.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @cian said:

    @kobamoto said:
    surely Bidens lied about something, the issue is what do people who don't like bidens lies do about Trumps 16,000 lies besides lose all credibility

    I have zero interest in whataboutism. During a pandemic his campaign lied about voter safety, because they wanted to get the maximum number of votes and that was all that mattered. People will die as a result of this cynicism. As far as I'm concerned this pandemic has proven that almost the entire political class is broken in the US.

    That's a pretty strong statement. Without an actual citation, I guess I am not willing to accept an accusation that someone egregiously lied without a link to an actual primary source.

    FYI, political campaigns and the parties have no say in when elections are held or if they are held. It is up to each state to determine that. It is certainly a controversial question with no obvious answer as to what should be done.

    The DNC and the campaigns are not responsible for the primaries going forward.

  • mister_rzmister_rz

    @MonzoPro said:

    @mister_rz said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @mister_rz said:
    Then I read things like this and feel hopeful again, most my anxiety over this, stems from the government in charge atm.

    https://www.ft.com/content/0dba7ea8-6713-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

    An infection control experiment that was rolled out in a small Italian community at the start of Europe’s coronavirus crisis has stopped all new infections in the town that was at the centre of the country’s outbreak.

    Through testing and retesting of all 3,300 inhabitants of the town of Vò, near Venice, regardless of whether they were exhibiting symptoms, and rigorous quarantining of their contacts once infection was confirmed, health authorities have been able to completely stop the spread of the illness there.

    Andrea Crisanti, an infections expert at Imperial College London who is taking part in the Vò project while on sabbatical at the University of Padua, urged countries that have been limiting virus testing, which includes the UK and US, to learn lessons and ramp up the numbers of people being screened.

    “In the UK, there are a whole lot of infections that are completely ignored,” Prof Crisanti told the Financial Times. “We were able to contain the outbreak here because we identified and eliminated the ‘submerged’ infections and isolated them,” he said of the Vò approach. “That is what makes the difference.”

    Won’t happen here in a timely fashion unfortunately. Johnson still hasn’t closed the schools, there’s hardly any testing, and we have non-compulsory self-isolation, without any official support.

    Basically we don’t have the infrastructure anymore, or a competent government capable of managing it.

    Like the way he’s only just asked companies to start making ventilators, as if someone has just nudged him and told him there’s a pandemic going on.

    Yeah it’s fecking amazing the level of ineptitude of these clowns, then all the bullshit excuses, you’d think we didn’t have a heads up from other countries that went thru this before us, even had the chinese sequence the damn thing and the germans come up with a reliable test, pretty quickly.

    All they needed to do was a modest cash injection early on, regarding getting tests ready, deployed and processed, then fortifying hospitals in hard hit areas, making sure staff get regularly tested and have the safety equipment they need. We’ll end up paying through the nose in the end, for years to come, while corporations will still pay little to no tax and the wealthy stash their hoards offshore.

    DECEMBER 2016: CMO Sally Davies

    “We’ve just had in the UK a 3-day exercise on flu, on a pandemic that killed a lot of people..It became clear that we could not cope with the excess bodies”.

    Inadequate ventilation capacity was specifically identified. NO changes to planning were implemented.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2020/03/government-documents-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic

    My stress levels would be greatly reduced if this government wasn’t in power, read that article and it said matt hancock has only just approached companies that are probably big tory donors, to ask if they could make ventilators for them, four days ago.

    Couple of weeks to retool, maybe a few more before supplies start rolling in and this will be after the decision has been made, mosus, jesus and muhammad wept. Our government is probably more dangerous to people’s health than covid-19, wonder if a vaccine can be developed to give people immunity, from their, party of the people, anti-elitist shtick.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited March 2020

    @mister_rz said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @mister_rz said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @mister_rz said:
    Then I read things like this and feel hopeful again, most my anxiety over this, stems from the government in charge atm.

    https://www.ft.com/content/0dba7ea8-6713-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

    An infection control experiment that was rolled out in a small Italian community at the start of Europe’s coronavirus crisis has stopped all new infections in the town that was at the centre of the country’s outbreak.

    Through testing and retesting of all 3,300 inhabitants of the town of Vò, near Venice, regardless of whether they were exhibiting symptoms, and rigorous quarantining of their contacts once infection was confirmed, health authorities have been able to completely stop the spread of the illness there.

    Andrea Crisanti, an infections expert at Imperial College London who is taking part in the Vò project while on sabbatical at the University of Padua, urged countries that have been limiting virus testing, which includes the UK and US, to learn lessons and ramp up the numbers of people being screened.

    “In the UK, there are a whole lot of infections that are completely ignored,” Prof Crisanti told the Financial Times. “We were able to contain the outbreak here because we identified and eliminated the ‘submerged’ infections and isolated them,” he said of the Vò approach. “That is what makes the difference.”

    Won’t happen here in a timely fashion unfortunately. Johnson still hasn’t closed the schools, there’s hardly any testing, and we have non-compulsory self-isolation, without any official support.

    Basically we don’t have the infrastructure anymore, or a competent government capable of managing it.

    Like the way he’s only just asked companies to start making ventilators, as if someone has just nudged him and told him there’s a pandemic going on.

    Yeah it’s fecking amazing the level of ineptitude of these clowns, then all the bullshit excuses, you’d think we didn’t have a heads up from other countries that went thru this before us, even had the chinese sequence the damn thing and the germans come up with a reliable test, pretty quickly.

    All they needed to do was a modest cash injection early on, regarding getting tests ready, deployed and processed, then fortifying hospitals in hard hit areas, making sure staff get regularly tested and have the safety equipment they need. We’ll end up paying through the nose in the end, for years to come, while corporations will still pay little to no tax and the wealthy stash their hoards offshore.

    DECEMBER 2016: CMO Sally Davies

    “We’ve just had in the UK a 3-day exercise on flu, on a pandemic that killed a lot of people..It became clear that we could not cope with the excess bodies”.

    Inadequate ventilation capacity was specifically identified. NO changes to planning were implemented.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2020/03/government-documents-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic

    My stress levels would be greatly reduced if this government wasn’t in power, read that article and it said matt hancock has only just approached companies that are probably big tory donors, to ask if they could make ventilators for them, four days ago.

    Couple of weeks to retool, maybe a few more before supplies start rolling in and this will be after the decision has been made, mosus, jesus and muhammad wept. Our government is probably more dangerous to people’s health than covid-19, wonder if a vaccine can be developed to give people immunity, from their, party of the people, anti-elitist shtick.

    He made a request to businesses via Twitter yesterday.

    You couldn’t make this stuff up. I sometimes question if I’m awake and this is actually happening. It’d be rejected as a script for a disaster movie for being too far-fetched.

    The only conclusion I can come to from the actions of the UK government, is that they are deliberately allowing us to die.

  • mister_rzmister_rz

    @Max23 said:
    3,300 inhabitants> @mister_rz said:

    Then I read things like this and feel hopeful again, most my anxiety over this, stems from the government in charge atm.

    https://www.ft.com/content/0dba7ea8-6713-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

    An infection control experiment that was rolled out in a small Italian community at the start of Europe’s coronavirus crisis has stopped all new infections in the town that was at the centre of the country’s outbreak.

    Through testing and retesting of all 3,300 inhabitants of the town of Vò, near Venice, regardless of whether they were exhibiting symptoms, and rigorous quarantining of their contacts once infection was confirmed, health authorities have been able to completely stop the spread of the illness there.

    Andrea Crisanti, an infections expert at Imperial College London who is taking part in the Vò project while on sabbatical at the University of Padua, urged countries that have been limiting virus testing, which includes the UK and US, to learn lessons and ramp up the numbers of people being screened.

    “In the UK, there are a whole lot of infections that are completely ignored,” Prof Crisanti told the Financial Times. “We were able to contain the outbreak here because we identified and eliminated the ‘submerged’ infections and isolated them,” he said of the Vò approach. “That is what makes the difference.”

    lol, that's pretty easy in a small-town with 3000 inhabitants.
    London has 8.9 million inhabitants.
    Rome has 2.8 million inhabitants.
    Berlin has 3.7 million inhabitants.
    New York has 8.9 million inhabitants

    Not exactly the little dollhouse they are talking about.

    Yeah numbers are completely different, but without extensive testing we’re flying blind and responding to people who exhibit obvious symptoms and need treatment, then testing, then contact tracing, once the results are in.

    Read an article last week about a lady from here, who travels often to milan, when she got there and everything was in lockdown, she started worrying, booked an expensive same day flight back home, got back, no screening at the airport, no testing, not even advisory info. It’s not like we don’t have the resources as all the emergency economic stimulus packages show.

  • richardyotrichardyot

    Italy had 475 deaths in one day.

  • mister_rzmister_rz
    edited March 2020

    @MonzoPro said:

    @mister_rz said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @mister_rz said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @mister_rz said:
    Then I read things like this and feel hopeful again, most my anxiety over this, stems from the government in charge atm.

    https://www.ft.com/content/0dba7ea8-6713-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

    An infection control experiment that was rolled out in a small Italian community at the start of Europe’s coronavirus crisis has stopped all new infections in the town that was at the centre of the country’s outbreak.

    Through testing and retesting of all 3,300 inhabitants of the town of Vò, near Venice, regardless of whether they were exhibiting symptoms, and rigorous quarantining of their contacts once infection was confirmed, health authorities have been able to completely stop the spread of the illness there.

    Andrea Crisanti, an infections expert at Imperial College London who is taking part in the Vò project while on sabbatical at the University of Padua, urged countries that have been limiting virus testing, which includes the UK and US, to learn lessons and ramp up the numbers of people being screened.

    “In the UK, there are a whole lot of infections that are completely ignored,” Prof Crisanti told the Financial Times. “We were able to contain the outbreak here because we identified and eliminated the ‘submerged’ infections and isolated them,” he said of the Vò approach. “That is what makes the difference.”

    Won’t happen here in a timely fashion unfortunately. Johnson still hasn’t closed the schools, there’s hardly any testing, and we have non-compulsory self-isolation, without any official support.

    Basically we don’t have the infrastructure anymore, or a competent government capable of managing it.

    Like the way he’s only just asked companies to start making ventilators, as if someone has just nudged him and told him there’s a pandemic going on.

    Yeah it’s fecking amazing the level of ineptitude of these clowns, then all the bullshit excuses, you’d think we didn’t have a heads up from other countries that went thru this before us, even had the chinese sequence the damn thing and the germans come up with a reliable test, pretty quickly.

    All they needed to do was a modest cash injection early on, regarding getting tests ready, deployed and processed, then fortifying hospitals in hard hit areas, making sure staff get regularly tested and have the safety equipment they need. We’ll end up paying through the nose in the end, for years to come, while corporations will still pay little to no tax and the wealthy stash their hoards offshore.

    DECEMBER 2016: CMO Sally Davies

    “We’ve just had in the UK a 3-day exercise on flu, on a pandemic that killed a lot of people..It became clear that we could not cope with the excess bodies”.

    Inadequate ventilation capacity was specifically identified. NO changes to planning were implemented.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2020/03/government-documents-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic

    My stress levels would be greatly reduced if this government wasn’t in power, read that article and it said matt hancock has only just approached companies that are probably big tory donors, to ask if they could make ventilators for them, four days ago.

    Couple of weeks to retool, maybe a few more before supplies start rolling in and this will be after the decision has been made, mosus, jesus and muhammad wept. Our government is probably more dangerous to people’s health than covid-19, wonder if a vaccine can be developed to give people immunity, from their, party of the people, anti-elitist shtick.

    He made a request to businesses via Twitter yesterday.

    You couldn’t make this stuff up. I sometimes question if I’m awake and this is actually happening. It’d be rejected as a script for a disaster movie for being too far-fetched.

    The only conclusion I can come to from the actions of the UK government, is that they are deliberately allowing us to die.

    A request via twitter :Picard:

    I don’t like being overly cynical, but I’m inclined to agree, doesn’t help that bojo’s dad is the type of environmentalist that pushes the view that all our problems come down to overpopulation, completely oblivious to the lifestyle he and others like him lead, having massive impacts due to resource hogging, then saying shit like this on tv, unless of course it’s a deep fake.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nemophilist2/status/1239875683909844993

    *edit, first video under the post about him still going to the pub, not sure why it didn’t just link to the clip.

  • knewspeakknewspeak

    @richardyot said:
    Italy had 475 deaths in one day.

    With the exponential growth unless curtailed, you are talking many thousands per day, lots of mass graves because crematorium and undertakers with not be able to keep pace.

  • SilverKSilverK

    @espiegel123 said:

    @SilverK said:
    So been trawling for stats ..... https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-compare-influenza/

    You will find here that last year was a low in flu deaths , under 2,000

    2014-2015 had nearly 30,000 deaths from flu ....... why no freak out then ?

    I can walk you through why epidemiologists and public health experts are worried step-by-step if you are interested in the answer.

    If you are interested, let me know.

    (The short version has three parts--each of which have important ramifications. Main parts:
    1) no one is immune to it (so the number of people that will contract it will be orders of magnitude larger than the number of people that get the flu)
    2) coronavirus seems to be 5-20 times more lethal than the flu
    3) the lethality for older people is radically higher than for the flu.

    Anyway, we can go over the numbers step by step and see how it goes. Maybe you will find a flaw in the reasoning.

    But rather than have a post with lots of parts, how about looking at it piece by piece?

    You game?

    I don’t need to go over any numbers with you .....you seem to think you know it all but what is flawed is your perspective......
    2000 deaths in uk last year from flu
    2015-2016 saw nearly 30,000 how can you even say this outbreak is as bad with 104 deaths to date .......

  • LinearLinemanLinearLineman

    @cian, please come up with your source. It would help your argument a lot.

    My understanding is that the voter turnout was greater than the 2016 primaries. Octagenenarians et.al.showed up. For the most part, I am guessing, these are not stupid people who don’t know the risks. They showed up because they believe in the democratic process and believe Trump is a greater danger, perhaps than the virus itself. I do agree this could have been done by mail, but then it would be weeks of waiting for Bernie to drop out. Now he knows his fight is kaput. Perhaps he will negotiate with Biden to put Elizabeth Warren as VP on the ticket. Then some of his progressive ideas could go forward. Meanwhile he could go to work in the Senate where his voice would be more valuable. And all the future primaries would be cancelled. A good result.

  • knewspeakknewspeak

    @SilverK said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @SilverK said:
    So been trawling for stats ..... https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-compare-influenza/

    You will find here that last year was a low in flu deaths , under 2,000

    2014-2015 had nearly 30,000 deaths from flu ....... why no freak out then ?

    I can walk you through why epidemiologists and public health experts are worried step-by-step if you are interested in the answer.

    If you are interested, let me know.

    (The short version has three parts--each of which have important ramifications. Main parts:
    1) no one is immune to it (so the number of people that will contract it will be orders of magnitude larger than the number of people that get the flu)
    2) coronavirus seems to be 5-20 times more lethal than the flu
    3) the lethality for older people is radically higher than for the flu.

    Anyway, we can go over the numbers step by step and see how it goes. Maybe you will find a flaw in the reasoning.

    But rather than have a post with lots of parts, how about looking at it piece by piece?

    You game?

    I don’t need to go over any numbers with you .....you seem to think you know it all but what is flawed is your perspective......
    2000 deaths in uk last year from flu
    2015-2016 saw nearly 30,000 how can you even say this outbreak is as bad with 104 deaths to date .......

    2000 deaths a day could be easily reached within a month.

  • espiegel123espiegel123
    edited March 2020

    @SilverK said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @SilverK said:
    So been trawling for stats ..... https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-compare-influenza/

    You will find here that last year was a low in flu deaths , under 2,000

    2014-2015 had nearly 30,000 deaths from flu ....... why no freak out then ?

    I can walk you through why epidemiologists and public health experts are worried step-by-step if you are interested in the answer.

    If you are interested, let me know.

    (The short version has three parts--each of which have important ramifications. Main parts:
    1) no one is immune to it (so the number of people that will contract it will be orders of magnitude larger than the number of people that get the flu)
    2) coronavirus seems to be 5-20 times more lethal than the flu
    3) the lethality for older people is radically higher than for the flu.

    Anyway, we can go over the numbers step by step and see how it goes. Maybe you will find a flaw in the reasoning.

    But rather than have a post with lots of parts, how about looking at it piece by piece?

    You game?

    I don’t need to go over any numbers with you .....you seem to think you know it all but what is flawed is your perspective......
    2000 deaths in uk last year from flu
    2015-2016 saw nearly 30,000 how can you even say this outbreak is as bad with 104 deaths to date .......

    I am sorry. I really don't understand. You have repeatedly asked 'why are people so freaked out by this when x number of people die from the flu' (I am paraphrasing here but I think that captures the question)

    I pointed you to some articles and you asked again.

    I offered to go through the numbers step-by-step to demonstrate why experts are so concerned. and give you a chance to disagree or question the steps. It gives you a chance to point out flaws in my understanding as well as perhaps a chance to answer the question that you have asked several times.

    I am trying to be positive in my engagement. Let me ask you, do you want to know why epidemiologists are more worried by the coronavirus than the flu or not.

    Is it a rhetorical or real question?

    I don't think I know it all. I think that I have been able to follow the explanations of people that know a lot more than me about the subject. And I think I understand what they have explained well enough to outline THEIR reasoning.

    If there is a flaw in the reasoning, you can point it out.

    I am not sure why you keep on attacking me and insulting me. You asked a question several times and thought that I could help answer it.

  • CluelessClueless

    There are more deaths every year because of other things but it does not matter.
    This pandemic is a world wide crisis and in a few months it will look really bad maybe.
    People who still think it is "just" a flu just see what is going on. This also will costs more jobs as any flu ever in the last decades and your social life will suffer as well if you like or not.
    Simple fact there is no vaccination yet and we do not know when we have the chance. By that time millions could be infected.
    But Chuck Norris will come and save the flat earth with gunshots of unicorns.

  • kobamotokobamoto
    edited March 2020

    @cian said:

    @kobamoto said:
    surely Bidens lied about something, the issue is what do people who don't like bidens lies do about Trumps 16,000 lies besides lose all credibility

    I have zero interest in whataboutism. During a pandemic his campaign lied about voter safety, because they wanted to get the maximum number of votes and that was all that mattered. People will die as a result of this cynicism. As far as I'm concerned this pandemic has proven that almost the entire political class is broken in the US.

    I agree it's broken, mainly by the charlatans who put a charlatan in office in the first place, you know the kind of people that want Obamacare burned out of Kentucky but want to string you up if you touch their Kentucky connect healthcare... aka(Obama care)....

    but more than anything it's false equivalency ruining the government, and by what you said about what the pandemic has proven to you you must have lost all hope when trump and co insinuated that the coronavirus was a hoax, hell even tucker Carlson had to take a break from being the son of the anti-christ to try to talk some sense into Trump...
    so as mad as you are about Biden and the democrats, at least they didn't call it a hoax did they, but they didn't stop rallies soon enough, wonder who started that trend?

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited March 2020
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • ciancian

    @espiegel123 said:

    @cian said:

    @kobamoto said:
    surely Bidens lied about something, the issue is what do people who don't like bidens lies do about Trumps 16,000 lies besides lose all credibility

    I have zero interest in whataboutism. During a pandemic his campaign lied about voter safety, because they wanted to get the maximum number of votes and that was all that mattered. People will die as a result of this cynicism. As far as I'm concerned this pandemic has proven that almost the entire political class is broken in the US.

    That's a pretty strong statement. Without an actual citation, I guess I am not willing to accept an accusation that someone egregiously lied without a link to an actual primary source.

    FYI, political campaigns and the parties have no say in when elections are held or if they are held. It is up to each state to determine that. It is certainly a controversial question with no obvious answer as to what should be done.

    The DNC and the campaigns are not responsible for the primaries going forward.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/17/dnc-memo-primary-delays-could-result-delegate-reduction

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/biden-urges-voters-cast-ballots-tuesday-primaries-coronavirus-concerns-mount-n1159471

    At the time this was against the advice of every medical official, and a number went on the record opposing this. Various of Biden's campaign staff came out and reiterated what Biden said.

  • kobamotokobamoto

    yep this election is going to be a tough call, it will be the incumbent politician, mafioso roy Cohn fetishizer, half nazi sympathizer half super villain..... vs. a politician.....

    tough call
    I guess they'll just have to line up all the lies each of them has told and see who's lied the most and who's lied the least, how else will we choose?

  • ciancian

    @SilverK said:

    I don’t need to go over any numbers with you .....you seem to think you know it all but what is flawed is your perspective......
    2000 deaths in uk last year from flu
    2015-2016 saw nearly 30,000 how can you even say this outbreak is as bad with 104 deaths to date .......

    It will spread to about 60-70% of the population if measures aren't taken. Around 1% of those people will die. 10% get very sick (many of those people will be permanently disabled with diminished lung capacity, or other organ damage). If that 10% is too large, a lot of those people will also die.

    If they don't get it under control there will be between 1-2 million deaths. Without full lockdown like they have in Korea/Taiwan, etc - you're looking at about 500,000 deaths (the excess deaths come from the collapse of the health system, shortage of intensive care, etc).

    Pandemics spread exponentially. The numbers rapidly get very scary if measures aren't taken to get things under control. Given that it takes two weeks for symptoms to manifest, a lot more people will die even if measures are taken today.

    This is all based upon what people who model pandemics professionally have said. And also from what has happened in Iran, Italy and previous pandemics. We're in the early stages, but a lot of the consequences are already locked in because of the lag time.

  • ciancian

    @kobamoto said:
    yep this election is going to be a tough call, it will be the incumbent politician, mafioso roy Cohn fetishizer, half nazi sympathizer half super villain..... vs. a politician.....

    tough call
    I guess they'll just have to line up all the lies each of them has told and see who's lied the most and who's lied the least, how else will we choose?

    So you're okay with Biden risking people's lives needlessly, because you think Trump is a super villain. Maybe both things can be bad?

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @cian said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @cian said:

    @kobamoto said:
    surely Bidens lied about something, the issue is what do people who don't like bidens lies do about Trumps 16,000 lies besides lose all credibility

    I have zero interest in whataboutism. During a pandemic his campaign lied about voter safety, because they wanted to get the maximum number of votes and that was all that mattered. People will die as a result of this cynicism. As far as I'm concerned this pandemic has proven that almost the entire political class is broken in the US.

    That's a pretty strong statement. Without an actual citation, I guess I am not willing to accept an accusation that someone egregiously lied without a link to an actual primary source.

    FYI, political campaigns and the parties have no say in when elections are held or if they are held. It is up to each state to determine that. It is certainly a controversial question with no obvious answer as to what should be done.

    The DNC and the campaigns are not responsible for the primaries going forward.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/17/dnc-memo-primary-delays-could-result-delegate-reduction

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/biden-urges-voters-cast-ballots-tuesday-primaries-coronavirus-concerns-mount-n1159471

    At the time this was against the advice of every medical official, and a number went on the record opposing this. Various of Biden's campaign staff came out and reiterated what Biden said.

    The first article says nothing about Biden. I am not sure what relevance it has.

    The second article says that Biden encouraged voters to vote by mail or use curbside voting if at risk -- and that everyone should follow local public health advisories and maintain social distancing. While one might argue that he should have discouraged people to vote. What the articles says is far short of the accusation that Biden lied to voters about the risks.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited March 2020
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • ciancian

    The first article is about the DNC. You asked for a reference. The DNC is trying to prevent states from delaying the vote (the Biden campaign has not spoken out against this, suggesting that they tacitly endorse this), by threatening them.

    Question: How do you maintain social distancing at a poll booth? How does that work? Secondly, the public health advisories in many of these states was don't make unnecessary journeys and to stay at home. And certainly not to congregate in groups around other people, or go to places where lots of people are touching stuff. Also the Biden campaign were told by health professionals that nobody should be voting, and this had been the advice for at least a week previously. 2 weeks ago - maybe. Tuesday of this week - no, this was at best reckless.

    His campaign could have joined the Sanders campaign and called for delays until there was something in place to allow everybody to vote by mail, or in some other manner. They chose not to.

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