Looking for an alternative: Which DAW has a similar workflow to Cubasis?

AudioGus

Edit... slept

AudioGus

@drcongo said:
OK, I’m back already to revise my impressions of NanoStudio, thank @god for that. Now that it’s not shitting a leg off as soon as I open an AU in it, I can see why it gets so much love here. The built in Obsidian synth is superb and UI/UX wise almost everything is really well thought through, I’m rarely having to think about how things are done. Despite my praise for Beatmaker before, in BM you have to think hard about where everything is all the time.

After a while I found I could just fly through it but it definitely had a steep muscle memory curve.

LeonKowalski

@AudioGus said:

@drcongo said:
OK, I’m back already to revise my impressions of NanoStudio, thank @god for that. Now that it’s not shitting a leg off as soon as I open an AU in it, I can see why it gets so much love here. The built in Obsidian synth is superb and UI/UX wise almost everything is really well thought through, I’m rarely having to think about how things are done. Despite my praise for Beatmaker before, in BM you have to think hard about where everything is all the time.

After a while I found I could just fly through it but it definitely had a steep muscle memory curve.

I'm just starting with it. The curve is still ahead of me. And damn it feels to be steep!

AudioGus

@LeonKowalski said:

@AudioGus said:

@drcongo said:
OK, I’m back already to revise my impressions of NanoStudio, thank @god for that. Now that it’s not shitting a leg off as soon as I open an AU in it, I can see why it gets so much love here. The built in Obsidian synth is superb and UI/UX wise almost everything is really well thought through, I’m rarely having to think about how things are done. Despite my praise for Beatmaker before, in BM you have to think hard about where everything is all the time.

After a while I found I could just fly through it but it definitely had a steep muscle memory curve.

I'm just starting with it. The curve is still ahead of me. And damn it feels to be steep!

The thing for me at the beginning that worked well was to just give in and spend a few evenings of just tapping everything and looking at everything, exploring the UI and seeing where the little wormholes are etc. Testing myself to go from point A to point B (or E) and just get to know it from an app UI level without even trying to make music.

rs2000

.> @drcongo said:

OK, I’m back already to revise my impressions of NanoStudio, thank @god for that. Now that it’s not shitting a leg off as soon as I open an AU in it, I can see why it gets so much love here. The built in Obsidian synth is superb and UI/UX wise almost everything is really well thought through, I’m rarely having to think about how things are done. Despite my praise for Beatmaker before, in BM you have to think hard about where everything is all the time.

That's exactly my experience!
BM3 can do almost everything, including desktop-level features that any Cubasis version can only dream of but it's not as straightforward and intuitive to use as Cubasis.
BM3 really asks for my patience and it takes longer to get fluent with it.
It's very much a matter of practice.

NS2 is great for composing with virtual instruments and the built-in instruments and FX are so good that one hardly needs other AUv3 instruments, maybe a few more advanced 3rd-party AUv3 effects but that's it. It's not only the piano roll that supports composition and editing very well but also the file management including a local WebDAV drive that you can mount as a folder on your desktop machine (!) and MIDI file import that doesn't leave much to be desired.

ruggedsmooth

Yeah it’s tough man, I’ve been bouncing around a lot.

I like using gadget a lot too
And then I have been using Audiobus/xequence/aum a lot
When I get too needing audio stage I just export everything into stems and dump it into AuriaPro to use fabfilters etc.

I gave up on cubasis2 a while back and am still waiting for 3 to get ironed out a bit more before I take the plunge on that one.

Once NS2 gets audio should be real good,
or I think the Xequence dev is working on an Audio app so that could be a killer one for me.

I pretty much just accepted iOS as a modular workflow style these days.

Telstar5

@Apex said:
I agree with @drcongo

It’s crazy because ALL the features and functionality exist in iOS to have a proper DAW..... They just exist separately in different apps. Every single one is >> this <<< close to being complete.

Hope springs eternal

XACT!👍😉

Telstar5

Where’s the BM3 book, BTW?

drcongo

Back to my NanoStudio review, automation seems pretty decent if a little fiddly for some things, but I can’t find any way to automate any of the loaded AUv3s. Maybe one of the Nano users can tell me if I’m just missing it, otherwise this feels like a bigger limitation than the lack of audio tracks for me.

god

@drcongo said:
Back to my NanoStudio review, automation seems pretty decent if a little fiddly for some things, but I can’t find any way to automate any of the loaded AUv3s. Maybe one of the Nano users can tell me if I’m just missing it, otherwise this feels like a bigger limitation than the lack of audio tracks for me.

You can definitely automate AUv3 instruments (but not effects!) and you can only automate a maximum of 8 parameters per instance, because they are mapped to the knobs. AUv3 effect automation and audio tracks are both in dev’s top of todo list but there’s no delivery date for either.

JohnnyGoodyear

@pete12000 said:

@drcongo said:
in BM you have to think hard about where everything is all the time.

...great summary of the BM3 user experience. It's a tool that refuses to get out of my way.

Great line Pete.

JohnnyGoodyear

@Telstar5 said:
Where’s the BM3 book, BTW?

YES THE BOOK WHERE IS THE BOOK WE WERE PROMISED AND HAVE HURT HEARTS NOW WAITING ETC.

drcongo

Thanks again @god, and to think I didn’t believe in you.

Littlewoodg

@drcongo said:

One you didn’t mention which is my main dog (next to BM3) is MultitrackStudio. A workflow unto itself but it surpasses most iOS stuff IMHO

wim

There have been reports that recording of CC automation can be “steppy” on playback in NS-2. It might only be an obvious issue for very expressive controllers like wind controllers, but seems to be the case. Apparently, even with quantization turned off, not enough points are recorded along the curve for smooth response. If needed I can look up the thread on the NS2 forum.

Just mentioning it in case that’s a concern. With the slow pace of NS2 development, I wouldn’t count on that being addressed any time soon.

rs2000

@Littlewoodg said:

@drcongo said:

One you didn’t mention which is my main dog (next to BM3) is MultitrackStudio. A workflow unto itself but it surpasses most iOS stuff IMHO

Would you say that MTS is another candidate (like Modstep and especially BM3) with a great feature set but "uncommon" workflow?
I've been eyeing at this one but the app description didn't yet make me want to spend $50 for yet another DAW.

LeonKowalski

@LFS said:

@LeonKowalski said:
I ask that question because I'm close to giving up on Cubasis 3, at least for now. Maybe it gets better with future updates, but right now it just takes the fun away with still way too many bugs, glitches, crashes and whatnot. Even in relatively simple projects (my Iast one has only 4 AUv3 instruments with some AU effects and one ”Classic Machines“ drumtrack) I spend more time ironing out the bugs, restarting the app, erasing automation events that miraculously appear in several tracks, and so on, than actually making music. It's just annoying. I'm sure that the reason isn't my hardware (my iPad pro 2018 which does a good job with everything else). So the problem is either the user (quite possible 😬) or the app...

The reason for using Cubasis, after making a Iot of tracks in Korg Gadget, was that I wanted to go some steps further with a "real" DAW, being able to use the tons of AUv3 synths and FX that are around, put some Ioops and stems created in AUM, Groovebox and BIocsWave in there, maybe add some audio recordings, and Iearn mixing with more control of the overall sound quality.

In theory, Cubasis 3 can do aII that, and I still Iike it overall, the Iayout, the features, the design, the functionality (except the automation, which Is a big pain in the butt, even if it works properly - which it doesn't). But for now I think I‘II have to go back to Gadget or find an alternative that fits my "needs". I‘d Iove to read your suggestions.

Hi @LeonKowalski,

Can we exchange about your issues more in detail, to find out where the problems are related to at your end?

Using the iPad Pro 12.9“ 1st Gen myself most of the time.

Some things to check up front:

• Please have a look at the Latency settings, and check if decreasing values helps here (Important: lowest settings are critical to use!)
• Please open „System Info“ (last inspector tab) and check if the 3rd apps used in the project put too much power on CPU (decreasing latency will help here too)
• Can the issues be nailed to a particular 3rd party plug-in used in the project(s)?
• Is Background Audio enabled?
• Please give restarting the iPad a try

Also, please give tomorrow’s 3.0.2 update a check as well!

If the problem persists we should exchange more closely, to find out the reasons.

Best,
Lars

Hi Lars,

if you are still reading here, this might interest you:

I updated to 3.0.2. Something has changed: it got worse.

Heavy crackling, skipping, tracks getting out of sync. My project seemed to be seriously broken.

Buuuuut: by taking out instrument tracks one after another, I found out which one caused the problems: it's Classic machines. Yes. Cubasis' own drum machine plugin. Whithout the drumtrack the project runs smoothly.

One additional question, which occured to me when I tried to preserve my improvised lead synth solo; maybe you or someone else has a tip for me (maybe it's a newbie question, because I don't know much about midi files): Is it possible to take a midi file from inside Cubasis and share it, or save it in "media"? As a safety copy, or to use it in a different project or in a different app? Or am I talking nonsense here?

Best,
LK

Littlewoodg

@rs2000 said:

@Littlewoodg said:

@drcongo said:

One you didn’t mention which is my main dog (next to BM3) is MultitrackStudio. A workflow unto itself but it surpasses most iOS stuff IMHO

Would you say that MTS is another candidate (like Modstep and especially BM3) with a great feature set but "uncommon" workflow?
I've been eyeing at this one but the app description didn't yet make me want to spend $50 for yet another DAW.

Uncommon workflow yes. But after the learning curve, very direct. And the power on offer really rewards the learning. It’s one of the one page apps that really is a one page app, without menu diving etc...if you are curious there is a free trial version for pc or Mac, the pc one is a chance to try the touch version if you have a pc tablet (though the iPad touch version is far more streamlined...) I like the pc one on Surface Pro, and bounce projects back and forth

rs2000

@Littlewoodg said:

@rs2000 said:

@Littlewoodg said:

@drcongo said:

One you didn’t mention which is my main dog (next to BM3) is MultitrackStudio. A workflow unto itself but it surpasses most iOS stuff IMHO

Would you say that MTS is another candidate (like Modstep and especially BM3) with a great feature set but "uncommon" workflow?
I've been eyeing at this one but the app description didn't yet make me want to spend $50 for yet another DAW.

Uncommon workflow yes. But after the learning curve, very direct. And the power on offer really rewards the learning. It’s one of the one page apps that really is a one page app, without menu diving etc...if you are curious there is a free trial version for pc or Mac, the pc one is a chance to try the touch version if you have a pc tablet (though the iPad touch version is far more streamlined...) I like the pc one on Surface Pro, and bounce projects back and forth

Good idea, thank you!

LFS

Hi Lars,

if you are still reading here, this might interest you:

I updated to 3.0.2. Something has changed: it got worse.

Heavy crackling, skipping, tracks getting out of sync. My project seemed to be seriously broken.

Buuuuut: by taking out instrument tracks one after another, I found out which one caused the problems: it's Classic machines. Yes. Cubasis' own drum machine plugin. Whithout the drumtrack the project runs smoothly.

Best,
LK

Hi @LeonKowalski,

The Classic Machines come super lightweight CPU-wise and should never create any performance issues, while it’s possible using many of them in the same project.

Please double check, if you‘ve used particular 3rd party plug-ins on that track, which might created the problem.

The number and type of 3rd party instruments and/or effects plug-ins can lead to problems, often unrelated to Cubasis.

Things to check:

• Open „System Info“ (last tab in the inspector), start playback and check system load
• Try if decreasing „Latency“ helps to unstress the system
• Use „TrackFreeze“ to minimize system load
• In some cases, not having „Background Audio“ enabled lead to issues for some users (might not be related to your issues)

Best,
Lars

ahallam

@rs2000 said:
Cubasis workflow is Cubasis workflow. Nothing really similar, but...

Cubasis 2:
Why don't you use this until it's dead?

Audio Evolution Mobile:
Try it. It's quite powerful but the workflow is very different from Cubasis, it needs some getting used to. Native SF2 and SFZ support. On-board low-cost IAP versions of Toneboosters plugins (but you can use the "real deal" if you like)

Lower cost than the already rock bottom TB prices?

rs2000

@ahallam said:

@rs2000 said:
Cubasis workflow is Cubasis workflow. Nothing really similar, but...

Cubasis 2:
Why don't you use this until it's dead?

Audio Evolution Mobile:
Try it. It's quite powerful but the workflow is very different from Cubasis, it needs some getting used to. Native SF2 and SFZ support. On-board low-cost IAP versions of Toneboosters plugins (but you can use the "real deal" if you like)

Lower cost than the already rock bottom TB prices?

Yes, considerably lower.
They are locked into AEM (like the IAP FX in Auria but much cheaper), plus it's the version 3 TB plugins like V3 on desktop OS. They're not as deep as the current V4 available as AUv3 plugins but they're quite good nonetheless.

You can even try them for 60 seconds each time for free which is fairly unique.

LeonKowalski

@LFS said:

Hi Lars,

if you are still reading here, this might interest you:

I updated to 3.0.2. Something has changed: it got worse.

Heavy crackling, skipping, tracks getting out of sync. My project seemed to be seriously broken.

Buuuuut: by taking out instrument tracks one after another, I found out which one caused the problems: it's Classic machines. Yes. Cubasis' own drum machine plugin. Whithout the drumtrack the project runs smoothly.

Best,
LK

Hi @LeonKowalski,

The Classic Machines come super lightweight CPU-wise and should never create any performance issues, while it’s possible using many of them in the same project.

Please double check, if you‘ve used particular 3rd party plug-ins on that track, which might created the problem.

The number and type of 3rd party instruments and/or effects plug-ins can lead to problems, often unrelated to Cubasis.

Things to check:

• Open „System Info“ (last tab in the inspector), start playback and check system load
• Try if decreasing „Latency“ helps to unstress the system
• Use „TrackFreeze“ to minimize system load
• In some cases, not having „Background Audio“ enabled lead to issues for some users (might not be related to your issues)

Best,
Lars

@LFS

Hi Lars,

actually, I checked all that. I double-, triple, quadruple-checked it.

So, again:

• My latency setting is always on 11.6 ms. With any lower latency setting, my Cubasis 3 is just not working. Crackling and stuttering all the time no matter how big the project is.
• I've checked with "Background Audio" on and off, made no difference in my case
• In my last project, I had only four 3rd party instruments (Bleass Alpha, two Kroneckers, one Mood), and each of them has the Cubasis Channel Strip engaged and two or three additional 3rd party FX plugins, like FAC Bandit, TB Equalizer and FAC Alteza. All added up, I have 4 3rd party AUv3 instruments and 16 AUv3 FX in my project. If that is too much to handle for Cubasis, then it might not be the right DAW for me.
• The other instrument is Classic machines. And as stated before, the issues disappeared when I took it out. I was very surprised. It was the last one I took out, because I did not expect it to be the problem.
• TrackFreeze helped. I froze the Classic Machines drumtrack and was able to mixdown the track then. But I had to take the drumtrack as it was. It was not possible to further work with it to make some variations, after I had updated Cubasis to 3.0.2.
• The system info numbers changed slightly after taking out / freezing the drumtrack. CPU stayed almost the same (between 7 and 10%), DSP went from values mostly in the 70% - 80% range to the 60% - 70% range.

As said before, I was very surprised that it was Classic Machines that (in this particular case) caused the main problems. I also have had issues before in other projects without any "Classic Machines" included.

Doesn't seem like a problem easily to be solved, right?

On the other hand, if you or anyone could help me with my other question:
One additional question, which occured to me when I tried to preserve my improvised lead synth solo; maybe you or someone else has a tip for me (maybe it's a newbie question, because I don't know much about midi files): Is it possible to take a midi file from inside Cubasis and share it, or save it in "media"? As a safety copy, or to use it in a different project or in a different app? Or am I talking nonsense here?,
I would try to recreate and test my project in Cubasis 2.

Best,
LK

LFS

@LeonKowalski said:

@LFS said:

Hi Lars,

if you are still reading here, this might interest you:

I updated to 3.0.2. Something has changed: it got worse.

Heavy crackling, skipping, tracks getting out of sync. My project seemed to be seriously broken.

Buuuuut: by taking out instrument tracks one after another, I found out which one caused the problems: it's Classic machines. Yes. Cubasis' own drum machine plugin. Whithout the drumtrack the project runs smoothly.

Best,
LK

Hi @LeonKowalski,

The Classic Machines come super lightweight CPU-wise and should never create any performance issues, while it’s possible using many of them in the same project.

Please double check, if you‘ve used particular 3rd party plug-ins on that track, which might created the problem.

The number and type of 3rd party instruments and/or effects plug-ins can lead to problems, often unrelated to Cubasis.

Things to check:

• Open „System Info“ (last tab in the inspector), start playback and check system load
• Try if decreasing „Latency“ helps to unstress the system
• Use „TrackFreeze“ to minimize system load
• In some cases, not having „Background Audio“ enabled lead to issues for some users (might not be related to your issues)

Best,
Lars

@LFS

Hi Lars,

actually, I checked all that. I double-, triple, quadruple-checked it.

So, again:

• My latency setting is always on 11.6 ms. With any lower latency setting, my Cubasis 3 is just not working. Crackling and stuttering all the time no matter how big the project is.
• I've checked with "Background Audio" on and off, made no difference in my case
• In my last project, I had only four 3rd party instruments (Bleass Alpha, two Kroneckers, one Mood), and each of them has the Cubasis Channel Strip engaged and two or three additional 3rd party FX plugins, like FAC Bandit, TB Equalizer and FAC Alteza. All added up, I have 4 3rd party AUv3 instruments and 16 AUv3 FX in my project. If that is too much to handle for Cubasis, then it might not be the right DAW for me.
• The other instrument is Classic machines. And as stated before, the issues disappeared when I took it out. I was very surprised. It was the last one I took out, because I did not expect it to be the problem.
• TrackFreeze helped. I froze the Classic Machines drumtrack and was able to mixdown the track then. But I had to take the drumtrack as it was. It was not possible to further work with it to make some variations, after I had updated Cubasis to 3.0.2.
• The system info numbers changed slightly after taking out / freezing the drumtrack. CPU stayed almost the same (between 7 and 10%), DSP went from values mostly in the 70% - 80% range to the 60% - 70% range.

As said before, I was very surprised that it was Classic Machines that (in this particular case) caused the main problems. I also have had issues before in other projects without any "Classic Machines" included.

Doesn't seem like a problem easily to be solved, right?

On the other hand, if you or anyone could help me with my other question:
One additional question, which occured to me when I tried to preserve my improvised lead synth solo; maybe you or someone else has a tip for me (maybe it's a newbie question, because I don't know much about midi files): Is it possible to take a midi file from inside Cubasis and share it, or save it in "media"? As a safety copy, or to use it in a different project or in a different app? Or am I talking nonsense here?,
I would try to recreate and test my project in Cubasis 2.

Best,
LK

Hi @LeonKowalski,

Still, I'm unsure that the Classic Machines do something bad here, but we'll see.
If you agree, please share the project with us (e.g. Dropbox link via PM), so we can try to reproduce your issues.

Best,
Lars

drcongo

@god said:
I'm not sure, but I think it is in how NS2 is handling the buffer latency. I am using an iPhone 8+ (which, as we know, is not the newest model right now), and I too used to encounter the same problems initially. Then I set the buffer latency to "high" and from then on, I can build tracks with several AUv3 instruments and/or effects playing, including "known hogs" such as SynthScaper LE and Moog Model D and I no longer am experiencing any of these dreaded sound problems.

I’ve been pushing Nanostudio hard the last couple of days without even the slightest hint of any issues. So thanks again @god - this has changed everything for me.

god

@drcongo said:

@god said:
I'm not sure, but I think it is in how NS2 is handling the buffer latency. I am using an iPhone 8+ (which, as we know, is not the newest model right now), and I too used to encounter the same problems initially. Then I set the buffer latency to "high" and from then on, I can build tracks with several AUv3 instruments and/or effects playing, including "known hogs" such as SynthScaper LE and Moog Model D and I no longer am experiencing any of these dreaded sound problems.

I’ve been pushing Nanostudio hard the last couple of days without even the slightest hint of any issues. So thanks again @god - this has changed everything for me.

You welcome! Glad I made a difference

anickt

I love NanoStudio. Lately though I’ve been using it in conjunction with Zenbeats which has audio tracks. I like these two over any of the other DAWs I’ve used and that’s most of them.

mojozart

MIDI or audio workflow?

For audio, I use Auria. Though I'm pulling for cross-platform Zenbeats.

There's still no support for audio tracks in NS2, right?

anickt

@mojozart said:
MIDI or audio workflow?

For audio, I use Auria. Though I'm pulling for cross-platform Zenbeats.

There's still no support for audio tracks in NS2, right?

I find myself in ZB more and more. MIDI/piano roll is not too much different than NS2 once you get used to where everything is and it’s got audio tracks that timestretch. I’ve been doing a lot of sample based, hip hop-ish kind of stuff for a rapper I know and it’s been working well.

JohnnyGoodyear

@anickt said:

@mojozart said:
MIDI or audio workflow?

For audio, I use Auria. Though I'm pulling for cross-platform Zenbeats.

There's still no support for audio tracks in NS2, right?

I find myself in ZB more and more. MIDI/piano roll is not too much different than NS2 once you get used to where everything is and it’s got audio tracks that timestretch. I’ve been doing a lot of sample based, hip hop-ish kind of stuff for a rapper I know and it’s been working well.

This is encouraging to hear...