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WWDC 2020

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Comments

  • richardyotrichardyot

    Apple have been gradually moving away from "Pro" level hardware for the last decade. 2009 was the last really competitive Mac Pro. They have shown very little serious interest in that market segment since. The trash can deservedly flopped, and the latest Pros are ridiculously priced and are built around the wrong hardware, no Threadripper CPU and no Nvidia GPU.

    I think it's unlikely that they will suddenly turn this all around with an ARM-based Mac Pro. They're trying to force the market towards Metal etc... but the value proposition just isn't there. Their Mac Pros are in Silicon Graphics pricing territory, and SG died because of the competition from much cheaper PCs. If you're running a studio with 50 to 100 seats for video editors, compositors, 3D artists or even designers you use PCs.

  • rthrrthr

    @klownshed said:

    @cian said:
    Apple does not currently produce high end performance CPUs. If history is a guide it will take them several years to get to that point, by which point Intel will probably have something much better in that space. And where they have been able to rely upon and build upon ARMs expertise in low power processors - high performance is not something ARM has invested much time or money into. This will require a lot of R&D, and honestly a lot of failures.

    It does make you wonder what their plans are. If they have plans to make the Mac Pro with Apple silicon then they surely must already have silicon more or less ready to do that.

    For sure.

    ARMv9 and SVE2 are most likely up and running in Apple’s labs. In 2 years time we’re talking about A15 architecture, and it appears this years A14 could already be exceeding 3GHz.

    Apple has a pretty solid CPU crew these days.

    Also: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/03/09/mac-pro-arm-performance/

  • swarmboyswarmboy

    Apple has a pretty solid CPU crew these days.

    The chip dude on the keynote was a proper Bond villain. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was building skynet, let alone xeon-level arm processors.

  • dendydendy

    @rthr
    ARMv9 and SVE2 are most likely up and running in Apple’s labs. In 2 years time we’re talking about A15 architecture, and it appears this years A14 could already be exceeding 3GHz.

    i hope you're true - we need to hold on Moore's law otherwise we will not reach planned artificial intelligence singularity in 2030 :-)

  • rthrrthr
    edited June 2020

    @swarmboy said:
    The chip dude on the keynote was a proper Bond villain. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was building skynet, let alone xeon-level arm processors.

    LOL

    @dendy said:

    @rthr
    ARMv9 and SVE2 are most likely up and running in Apple’s labs. In 2 years time we’re talking about A15 architecture, and it appears this years A14 could already be exceeding 3GHz.

    i hope you're true - we need to hold on Moore's law otherwise we will not reach planned artificial intelligence singularity in 2030 :-)

    😄

    Meanwhile I hope my friends at Ableton & Cycling aren’t getting headaches from all of this. Max especially will most likely be a ‘challenge’. 😬

  • dendydendy
    edited June 2020

    today "meet audio workgroups" about audio apps related topics on WWDC .. maybe something interesting ... (you can watch it in "Developers" app)

  • rthrrthr

    You can also access the sessions here: https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2020

  • dendydendy
    edited June 2020

    @rthr said:
    You can also access the sessions here: https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2020

    ah cool.. so these:

    https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10224/

    also this may bring potentially interesting information related to audio apps development

    https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10621/

  • klownshedklownshed

    @dendy said:

    “ Learn more about the power efficiency of System on a Chip (SoC) and how you can take advantage of new APIs to improve the speed and sound of your apps and plug-ins.”

    Will be interesting to see what the new APIs will enable.

  • ciancian

    @rthr said:

    For sure.

    ARMv9 and SVE2 are most likely up and running in Apple’s labs. In 2 years time we’re talking about A15 architecture, and it appears this years A14 could already be exceeding 3GHz.

    Apple has a pretty solid CPU crew these days.

    Also: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/03/09/mac-pro-arm-performance/

    It's not about raw speed per instruction, it's about all the other stuff that AMD and Intel do to get high performance. Branch prediction/speculative execution, vectorization/SIMD instructions, cache coherence for multi-cores, caching techniques generally, pipelining. Apple's ARM chips are way behind in those kinds of areas. The point I'm trying to get across is that high performance is a different game, and if you're reading sites that don't mention that stuff then they don't know what they're talking about.

    Another issue is that a lot of Apple's performance tricks are with custom silicon that you access with special libraries (e.g. the DSP stuff). Which is great for people who write code specifically for the Mac, but isn't going to help cross platform code (unless they put a lot of work into using those libraries). Most pro software is cross platform, as is most audio software.

  • ciancian

    @swarmboy said:

    Yes I totally get it’s a different thing - hence my apples and oranges comment - I was just using it to illustrate the point that there’s nothing inherent to RISC that makes high performance impossible.

    A supercomputer is basically a giant graphics card. Just how you can't run most software on a graphics card, supercomputers are only useful for very specialized hugely parallel tasks. Also, supercomputers can (and have been) built with chips that were individually quite slow.

    And I didn't say there was anything inherent to RISC that makes high performance possible. However current ARM processor technology (including Apple) does not have the kinds of features required to make desktop software run very fast. Can these things be solved? Probably. Can they be solved in the kinds of timescales being discussed? Possibly, but highly challenging and very expensive. It's not just a matter of taking an existing chip and throwing more cores at it.

  • ciancian

    From the Register:

    Despite celebrating the shift to Apple silicon during his WWDC keynote presentation, Apple CEO Tim Cook made it clear that Intel isn't being kicked to the curb immediately.
    "We plan to continue to support and release new versions of Mac OS for Intel based Macs for years to come," said Cook. "In fact, we have some new Intel-based Macs in the pipeline that we're really excited about."
    Cook perhaps is referring to an update for Apple's Mac Pro workstation, where power utilization and battery life top out around 902 watts for the 2019 model.

    So I think Apple know that their chips are not ready for the high end yet, and don't really have a good sense of when they will be. Interesting times. Intel is also starting to see competition in the cloud as Marvell and Ampere's chips are potentially quite competitive for virtual servers.

  • rthrrthr

    @cian said:

    So I think Apple know that their chips are not ready for the high end yet, and don't really have a good sense of when they will be.

    They will support the current systems. The move to Apple silicon will be completed in two years. That includes the pro machines.

    How they will perform is the only question.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]

    @MonzoPro said:

    @yug said:
    I wish they've told us when to expect an ARM-based Mac Mini. I'm not a big fan of laptops. I don't travel much anymore, so a desktop computer and an iPad work better for me. But if I have to wait 2 years I might just buy a new MacBook Pro. Life's too short.
    Besides, I may need to use Windows for work, so an "Intel inside" machine might be very handy to have. Kinda expensive though

    I was just mulling over the price of the new 16” I bought.

    My previous MBP in 2012, cost £1750. It had 4gb RAM, 15” non-retina screen, and a 500gb standard HD.

    The 16” cost £850 more. But for that I get 16gb RAM - quadruple the amount, a 500gb SSD, and a bigger, retina screen. Plus all the new stuff like the touchbar, bigger trackpad, better CPU and GPU etc.

    So yeah, not cheap, but with the additional upgrades it has, probably similar value to the one I bought 8 years ago )and still going strong).

    I've managed to convince myself :) , so I'm gonna buy it tomorrow. 13", 16Gb, 0.5 or maybe 1 TB.
    It's the end of the financial year here, most shops offer a 10% discount on Apple products

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]

    Apparently, the Files app in iOS/iPadOS 14 will support encrypted APFS disks: https://9to5mac.com/2020/06/26/apple-apfs-encrypted-drive-support-apfs-time-machine-backups/
    That's awesome!

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited June 2020

    @yug said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @yug said:
    I wish they've told us when to expect an ARM-based Mac Mini. I'm not a big fan of laptops. I don't travel much anymore, so a desktop computer and an iPad work better for me. But if I have to wait 2 years I might just buy a new MacBook Pro. Life's too short.
    Besides, I may need to use Windows for work, so an "Intel inside" machine might be very handy to have. Kinda expensive though

    I was just mulling over the price of the new 16” I bought.

    My previous MBP in 2012, cost £1750. It had 4gb RAM, 15” non-retina screen, and a 500gb standard HD.

    The 16” cost £850 more. But for that I get 16gb RAM - quadruple the amount, a 500gb SSD, and a bigger, retina screen. Plus all the new stuff like the touchbar, bigger trackpad, better CPU and GPU etc.

    So yeah, not cheap, but with the additional upgrades it has, probably similar value to the one I bought 8 years ago )and still going strong).

    I've managed to convince myself :) , so I'm gonna buy it tomorrow. 13", 16Gb, 0.5 or maybe 1 TB.
    It's the end of the financial year here, most shops offer a 10% discount on Apple products

    I don’t think you’ll regret it. Happy with mine, it’s got that ‘just works’ no-nonsense vibe, which was exactly what I needed. If I get 5+ years out of it I’ll be happy :smile:

    My previous work machine was a Dell desktop. Worked fine, but apparently there was an issue with cracked motherboards, so they sent engineers around to replace them. Never worked properly after that.

  • SchmotownSchmotown

    I found this particularly insightful when considering WWDC:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1275311056672325633.html

  • ErrkaPettiErrkaPetti
    edited June 2020

    @Schmotown said:
    I found this particularly insightful when considering WWDC:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1275311056672325633.html

    A lot of Superlatives about Apple Inc!
    But, he have a lot of insight in the business so he probably knows what he talks about...

    Sure, the Intel to Arm/Apple Silicone-thing is not s little thing, it’s huge to one of the biggest companies in the world... You getta be brave to make this transition ...

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