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Yes. I find that an easy way to think about it is that a diminished 7th chord starts with a 7th chord (R-3-5-b7) and flats everything except the root (R-b3-b5-bb7). You can also think of it as a stack of minor thirds, or a pair of tritones, if you want to get really geeky about it. 😜
A major 6th interval and a diminished seventh interval (strange as it may same) my have the same number of half steps but they aren’t really the same. When you know a bit more theory this will make sense. The diminished seventh interval is a double flatted seventh and as you learn more, you’ll see that it is more logically consistent to think of that diminished chord as being made of a root, minor third, diminished fifth and diminished seventh rather than as root, minor 3, diminished 5, major 6. It has to do with chords being built as triads.
If you don’t have it the Beato book can serve as a nice resource.
This one?
https://rickbeato.com/products/the-beato-book-4-0-pdf
Thanks for the explanation. Now that you explain it like that I'll think of it as you said.
From what I've seen the triangle usage is consistent though. If you see a triangle, it means there's a major 7th. 0.000000001% chance it will ever mean anything else on a jazz lead sheet. Aint never gonna be a minor 7th, or a major 6th or anything BUT a major 7th.
Yes to "half dim is min 7 flat 5".
Yes, you are correct about full diminished 7th. It is the sound of somebody tied to the train tracks with an oncoming train, while our hero rushes to save the victim. Half-diminshed 7th does not sound like that to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_seventh_chord
Get that Randy Vincent book that I recommended to you. It lays all that chord stuff out in a way that'll turn on the light bulb in your head that few other guitar books will, especially when you play through the shell voicing exercises. And beware of 90% of music theory sites authored by guitarists for guitarists.
This book was recommended to me by pro guitarist Ed Degenaro. The guy is a jazz book fiend and has seen all the jazz books for guitarists, so I didn't hesitate when he said get this book.
hit wrong button, sorry.
That’s it. It is often on sale...often mentioned in his videos which are well worth watching. I believe that he has some that cover elementary theory though a lot are more advanced.
As I said the confusion comes in when some charts show it as C/\7 and others as C/. Why remove the 7 or have it there at all if it is reduntant. Except to confuse people. But from now on. C/\ is Cmaj7. No Cmaj or any maj in jazz.
I did get that book. Thanks for the recommendation. I'm working through it slowly as I want to make sure it sinks in. Or would you recommend a first read through and a second to cement the concepts?
Cool, I'll keep an eye out for a sale. It looks pretty deep.
I think you’ll need a bit of jazz theory under your belt to understand why this is.
In most jazz, chords are usually 7th chords or chords with higher degrees...and usually it is up to the player to choose the chord flavor. For example, in a lot of charts you will see maj7 or minor 7 or plain old 7th chords named, but you will find that almost no one will play those chords. maj 7 will often be played as a major 9 or a chord with a thirteenth or something more exotic. 7th chords might be 9th chords and will often have altered upper-level extensions. In many ways, each generation of jazz is defined by the extensions. In the early 20th century, straight seventh family chords were common. Bebop starts shifting away from that and by the early 60s straight major 7, minor 7 and dominant 7 chords are rare even though charts are still written with them. People just knew what chords could be played in their stead.
Sounds fair. I have some serious work to do. Hopefully I have the attention span.
Based on my own experience, I'd say read with guitar at hand, and immediately play any musical exercise you come across. Playing through the exercise will immediately cement what you just read.
Reading through without playing will be a waste of time, because you would soon come across a passage and not understand what was written, and have to go back and play through the exercise you skipped anyway. That's what happened to me.
Then revisit the book as much as you need.
Like the other person said, whenever you see a triangle, it means there is a major 7th in the chord, whether or not the 7 is explicitly written out. Like Db/\13#11 on page 57 - the 7 is left out because the triangle took care of that. The more degrees you write out in the chord symbol, the more you defeat the purpose of using the symbol in the first place, which is to be shorthand to keep the chart from looking too messy.
Nobody knows who started using the triangle or why. It's just something you have to live with if you want to learn this stuff
https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/57422/what-is-the-origin-of-the-triangle-symbol-for-maj7-chords#:~:text=It quotes a book by,by the late John Coltrane."&text=Wayne used a "△7,Coltrane just a "△".
I just want to add that the non-specifity in jazz is not simply that it is shorthand but because it is an improvising art form and it is expected that players will give their own twist to chord voicings. Specific extensions are usually there when the harmony demands a particular flavor. Sometimes a 13b9 is what the composer felt was specifically needed (and even then players will think up their own alterations)
@Ailerom : No matter what reading you do...play more than you read. Work through lots of tunes in order for the sounds to become natural. Find songs you like and practice playing them with the record.
And accept that it may take a while to come together.
By shorthand I simply meant that it is not practical to write out every single degree of every chord, every single time.
And yes I agree if the composer/arranger put DbMaj713#11 on the lead sheet, it is probably because they specifically want the 13 and #11 to be heard in the chord - mostly likely because those chord tones are part of an intended voice-leading in the harmony.
I guess my point was that it isn't just because it would be laborious to write out all the scale degrees but because as a jazz musician one isn't intended to stick to the indicated scale degrees. When one does see specific scale degrees (beyond what family of seventh relatives is to be played), it communicates something -- and even then you would rarely stick to the notated chord all the time.
I am sure you know this, but I mention it because OP seems new to the tradition and a lot of people don't realize this if they come from a non-jazz background -- many that take up jazz without knowing jazz musicians or immersing themselves in the tradition never learn it. For a lot of people it is a foreign concept. Unlike much classical music, the tradition is meant to encourage spontaneous deviation from the map -- so the vagueness isn't just a convenience spelling things out would run counter to the ethos. It is why so many people with a background in classical music find it difficult to sound like a jazz player -- the notion that you are expected to deviate from the score is foreign. And it is tricky because you also have to learn to deviate in ways that work with both the music and the players.
@Ailerom : don't let this scare you off. What i am talking about isn't even necessarily done as an intellectual thing. You start playing everything vanilla and when that is comfortable you start adding chords to the vocabulary. I bollocksed myself up when I started learning jazz in high school cuz I was an analytical sort of person and wanted to understand everything. A friend that started playing around the same time developed much better feel by being less analytical. He got a copy of the Real Book (which was my introduction to it) and just started playing a few standards. And noticed after a while that when the chart called for a major 7 that the piano player or guitar player was often playing something different -- and he'd learn a chord that was close to it. Then he'd start throwing that chord in wherever it called for a major 7 and got a feel for when that worked and when it didn't. Then he went to work on dominant 7th chords and all their variations -- but for him it was always about adding a color he heard when he listened. I was so rules-based that I tied myself up in knots and I made correct choices that sounded wrong. Things got a lot better for me when I decided to be a beginner and start over going about things the way my friend did.
Adding a chord a week or every two weeks, you get pretty far after a year or two -- especially if you do it by what sounds good and by playing with recordings or (even better) musicians better than you.
Yes I have the same understanding that the purpose of chord symbols in jazz lead sheets is to outline what an accompanist should play with a soloist. What really drove it home for me was when I attended a workshop taught by a local jazz pianist. In the workshop, he demonstrated how he would, for example, play F7 when he sees it on a chart, depending on whether it's a blues gig, church/gospel gig, or jazz gig. He also did the same with a min7 chord. On the jazz gig, he would be more inclined to add a 9th, then other extensions/alterations to taste. A lot would depend on what other players are doing, because, for example, throwing in a #11 might clash if somebody else is hitting a natural 11 on the bass or other instrument. He'd also make sure not to use extensions/alterations that clash with the melody line. On a straight blues gig, he'd rarely play any extension past the 7th. The gospel gig was somewhere in between, depending on whether the church was leaning more urban/contemporary or more traditional.
I think I'm getting now that you thought that when I wrote "shorthand" I meant that the implied chord tones must always be used, and that is most certainly not the case.
An important point made by @espiegel123 about over analysing. I went through the Aebersold method books and learnt the formula but wish I hadn't. If i could start over again I'd use my ears a lot more - sure, you make mistakes but if you're in a jam session you only do it once! It's a lifelong learning experience (and I've been teaching myself for 30 years or so) but well worth the effort. Saying that I'm a sax and trumpet player not an accompanist. Good luck!
@Ailerom : there are a few YouTubers that have good material for someone launching into jazz. Jens Larsen's lessons are pretty digestable -- some are for intermediate and advanced players and some are for people learning the basics.
That was an interesting read. Sort of puts some sense to the use of the /\
That paragraph really helps. I wasn't thinking about jazz that way at all but putting it in that context is great. Thank you.
No danger there. After 4 or 5 days I'm still on the second page 5 of the Randy Vincent book.
Honestly, I'd go with good instructional videos by decent players rather than be book focused. That way you hear what they are talking about and can stop the video and try out what they just played. Books are nice supplements -- but hearing the stuff come alive is huge -- particularly because phrasing and the quirks of swing can't be conveyed by words.
No chance of that. I'm more likely to drive myself mad trying than to stop. I'm still driving myself mad with modal application in lead playing after years of brain contortions. Don't let that imply that I've actually gained any skill though.
It seems to me just after this short thread that jazz is a paradigm beyond the music I've been playing my whole life. Something that needs a different way of thinking more than anything. I had no idea about that but now that I do it's a bit of a light bulb moment so I'm great full for that. Previously I have been 99% self taught learning from listening to music I like, through bands like AC/DC, Led Zep, The Cult, Metallica, Rage Against The Machine, Guns n Roses, Soundgarden, Pearljam yardage yards yadda. Unless I'm mistaken I'm in a much better headspace now to start reading about jazz and even looking at something like Fake Book, iReal Pro.
Have you ever notice how great it can be to just sit back and listen to 2 people have a conversation, or even argument (not that this is) about topic they are well versed in. I find that can be a really useful experience if you just sit back and pay attention. This has been a good thread and I feel it has helped a huge amount. Not in playing but possibly in the more important area of how I think about jazz before even starting. I'm beginning to think this should be the first step for any jazz newbie.
The whole story above about use of chords makes a lot of sense. I was already imagining that if playing with a soloist the use of to much colour would be dangerous in the chord structure. Also explains a bit why my own original music rarely uses anything more complicated than an add9, sus2, maj7 min7. Although part of that may be the lack of preparedness of the average listener to comprehend a chord with a 7, 9, 11, 13 flavour.
I'll check out the one listed above. The danger for me is watching things that are not correct, or just a personal thing and believing it. I'd really need to be disciplined and only watch those where I trust the recommendation. Otherwise I might end up tube surfing to jazz lesson by grover on sesame street.
I get that hearing is believing. My daughter is learning violin and I know what a difference it can make when she hears something she is trying to play. Even if she is playing correctly a good piece of audio can reveal some of the added emotive content that can be added.
What do you think about the Matt Warnock apps?
I don't know them.
Jens Larsen's lessons are good. He is a good player and explains things relatively well. It is a good place to start.
He knows what he is talking about. Keep in mind that jazz -- being an improvisational artform that has a lot of different roots and a lot of regional and epochal variants -- has no one truth. I am not a great jazz player though I love jazz, but I have played with people that are excellent and had a mentor that is world-class -- and they all have different takes.
Also, start with jazz blues -- even if your goal is to play crazy outside neobop -- jazz blues will give you a foundation to move on to other things. I looked down on it as too elementary for a long time (much to the dismay of my mentor). Only years later did I realize that the relative simplicity of the form also makes it really rich because it is pretty forgiving and allows you to explore a lot of different scales and substitution and that if you work your way up to those you will be able apply the same techniques to complex changes. So, each step of the way, you are making music and able to add depth as you master the elements. When you start by trying to play Giant Steps, you don't have anything to build on -- and it just sounds half-assed for years. But if you start with jazz blues, you get to this point where you realize -- oh I can play as if this Bb7 is an E7 and you start to hear the relations between more adventurous changes so that they start seeming not so adventurous.
Oh, the other thing is -- make sure you hear everything in your head (or even better can sing it -- even if poorly) as you play it (ideally just before you play it) -- and then stop yourself when the notes that come out aren't what you thought and figure out how to play what you thought would come out.
That's exactly why I tune in to see the frequent "You'll Hear It" vlogs of Adam Maness and Peter Martin, two master jazz pianists who run Open Studio, an online jazz education business based in St. Louis. I think they used to do "You'll Hear It" as a roughly 15 minute daily podcast, recently they've been doing a weekly "You'll Hear It Live" that's longer, an hour or so, where they answer live viewer questions. (Actually, I'm not sure, they may still be doing their daily "You'll Hear It" podcasts and not putting all of them on youtube. You can google for "You'll Hear It" podcast and get links to the podcast archives at apple podcasts, google podcasts, or spotify.)
Their Open Studio youtube archives also hold a huge treasure trove of other videos, of their regular album listening sessions, master classes, live guided practice sessions, various videos on specific topics. Here's link to their youtube archives:
https://www.youtube.com/c/OpenStudioJazz/videos
All that youtube stuff is free and if you have a little discipline you could easily use it as a centerpiece of jazz self study. But they also have an extraordinarily well-crafted and large set of different classes and lessons you can buy at openstudiojazz.com .
I have no affiliation with Open Studio other than as a subscriber to their piano full access plan. I don't mind paying the monthly fee even though I don't use their paid lessons that much; I spend most of my time with their free material on youtube.
There are a number of other high quality jazz education resources on youtube. "You'll Hear It" came to mind specifically because of Ailerom's comment; it's two master jazz pianists shooting the shit, talking jazz, giving tips. It helps get you into the jazz culture. Their "Listening Sesh" youtube videos are similar, except they revolve around Adam and Peter listening to and commenting on what they consider to be seminal jazz albums.
Very cool, will definitely chack that out. Subscribed and will visit, or revisit if it seems to go over my head. Cheers.
I recommend Fareed Haque's course Jazz Comping Survival Guide. He provides a great introduction to shell voicings, how to demystify a lead sheet down to the 2-3 note shell voicings you need to get through the gig as a comping guitarist, etc. In the introduction he talks about being fired from a gig for playing too many notes in his chords.
https://truefire.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/jazz-comping-survival-guide/c121
I also recommend the minor key edition
https://truefire.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/comping-survival-guide-minor/c1450
The courses pair well with the Randy Vincent book.
Chris Buono’s Juiced Blues course on TrueFire has some really good comping info as well.
Agreed, though It's more focused on blues and a little more advanced than the courses I mentioned. When I listen to him explain what's going on harmonically, and review the OP's questions and comments, I think the OP will be confused. But the course is worth a look after the OP has progressed in his understanding of jazz comping.
Buono recently published a lesson on one of the guitar magazines, sharing what he learned from his teacher, the late, great Vic Juris.