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The difference between IAA sync and MIDI clock sync
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The thread for birdstepper was hijacked so let's continue the discussion here 
Though I've implemented IAA sync in the currently unreleased new version of Beat-Machine, I haven't abandoned MIDI clock sync and I don't think any other devs will either. I've actually improved it a little, but I didn't mention this in the list of new features because it will inevitably fail to work with something and I fear the backlash of users telling me I still didn't do it right
Here are the points I made about Apple's decision of sync technology:
@dreamless said:
@papertiger said:
It would be great if developers could unite and present a solution to Apple or at least lobby/push Apple to get a standard implemented.
I can't imagine that it's not already on the company's list of things to do, I just don't think it's a priority.
edit: and of course maybe users could do some similar lobbying. music apps are probably not the highest selling apps, but we're total nerds and we probably buy a lot of them!
Apple has already rolled out their standard for syncing apps... IAA timeline integration. They wisely ditched midi clock sync even though IAA supports midi data. Timeline integration is similar to MTC (midi time code) in that it provides the node with the exact position in time that the sequencers transport is located in addition to the exact bpm (which is much better than a bunch of ticks that the programmer has to measure and average the bpm from using various inexact methods). Clock sync has never been accurate even at its best and was replaced by MTC a long time ago.
@dreamless said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_beat_clock
A google search turns up plenty of examples of how badly clock sync suffers from clock drift. If the tempo never changes I've found that it can stay synced long enough for a whole song, but only if the receiver is good at averaging the bpm. If a song has tempo changes then you can forget about 2 instruments ever playing in time together. For simple tempo based effects like delay and arpeggiators, clock sync is perfectly fine. Synths that don't have a built in sequencer wouldn't implement MTC anyway. Getting 2 different instruments to play sequences together at the same time is never going to work right on iOS with clock sync, which is why Apple has implemented MTC. Clock sync will remain adequate for time based FX.
Comments
Should do some pasting. I'm feeling lost!
@papertiger said:
To expand on this thought, esp. in the context of the app that started this discussion (BirdStepper, a sequence-based effects app), I specifically want MIDI. With Audiobus 2, the ability to route multiple effects apps in a single chain is big. The only IAA-app I can think of off the top of my head that will let you chain multiple effects apps together is Audioshare. Workflow-wise, that's not a good solution.
dreamless 2:29AM
@papertiger said:It would be great if developers could unite and present a solution to Apple or at least lobby/push Apple to get a standard implemented.I can't imagine that it's not already on the company's list of things to do, I just don't think it's a priority.edit: and of course maybe users could do some similar lobbying. music apps are probably not the highest selling apps, but we're total nerds and we probably buy a lot of them!
Dreamless:
Apple has already rolled out their standard for syncing apps... IAA timeline integration. They wisely ditched midi clock sync even though IAA supports midi data. Timeline integration is similar to MTC (midi time code) in that it provides the node with the exact position in time that the sequencers transport is located in addition to the exact bpm (which is much better than a bunch of ticks that the programmer has to measure and average the bpm from using various inexact methods). Clock sync has never been accurate even at its best and was replaced by MTC a long time ago.
dreamless 4:15AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
MIDI_beat_clockA google search turns up plenty of examples of how badly clock sync suffers from clock drift. If the tempo never changes I've found that it can stay synced long enough for a whole song, but only if the receiver is good at averaging the bpm. If a song has tempo changes then you can forget about 2 instruments ever playing in time together. For simple tempo based effects like delay and arpeggiators, clock sync is perfectly fine. Synths that don't have a built in sequencer wouldn't implement MTC anyway. Getting 2 different instruments to play sequences together at the same time is never going to work right on iOS with clock sync, which is why Apple has implemented MTC. Clock sync will remain adequate for time based FX.
Sorry had to paste these 2 for some reference.
Drive some synth via midi with some old 909, it just works!
No its not sample exact but, thats not needed, didnt make music sound bad the last 30 years, did it?
Mtc/smpte is for sequencers - thats what the songposition stuff is for, but thats not needed most of the time ...
And no mtc has not replaced midi!
Go to the next music shop and show me the instruments that use mtc/smpte, on what planet r we?
U wont find any, they all have midi.
You should really stop telling people here what they do and don't need...there's more than one way to make music on an iPad and I can assure you, you don't know them all.
Hey @dreamless did you edit your original post or did I miss it altogether? What a mess!
@CalCutta said:
Why dont u just say what u need? &_&
I dont need it.
And stop putting words in my mouth, im old enough to speak 4 myself.
What I need is for you to fuck off and be an arsehole somewhere else.
@dreamless thank you for starting this thread, as I'm very interested to get the developer side of things. (Never have I wished that I knew how to program more than now with iOS!)
I understand about the user backlash issue, because I think it can make or break apps in a lot of ways. Not all app users are "responsible" with respect to what they post on forums. And it seems like a fact that some apps will work well on some systems, and dome will not well on others. Taken together, that can be a nightmarish scenario for developers. And of course, add reproduce-ability of problems.
I think that what most iOS music app users want are the basics of what they expect with respect to inter-operability: MIDI clock. To me, sync/transport is also a basic necessity for any app that plays back patterns or sequences (e.g. Sector, Effectrix, Cubasis, Auria, etc.). For that reason, I WANT IAA to succeed. I WANT to be able to work with apps as smoothly as I do with Sector in Cubasis or Auria (clock and transport wise). But not all apps support IAA, and MIDI clock is the lowest common denominator. So it's incredibly frustrating when IAA is not an option, and MIDI clock and transport just don't work at all.
And I have no idea why more developers are not supporting IAA at this point. If you could shed some light on that issue, I would appreciate it. I've wondered if it's because of the existing issues with IAA, and app developers not wanting to be blamed for problems that are not of their own creation (Korg, Propellerheads, etc.).
Im still waiting for the long list of instruments that uses smpte, rofl
@lala
Whenever this subject comes up, I've made it clear what I want for that app.
I'm never going to need anything regarding tempo-sync from an app, because that's counter-intuitive. If an app doesn't give me the tempo sync I'm looking for, I'm either going to find a different way to use it, or I'm going to not use it and find a different app which will work for me.
You're not saying "I don't need it" in the post I commented on, you're implying that sample-exact tempo syncing isn't needed. Newsflash, you don't know the requirements of others!
@PaulB said:
QFT this board doesn't need this kind of nonsense
Yeah i speak for myself /newsflash
Well, he did ask. I'm done.
@supadom said:
I suppose we were doing the editing at the same time. For people getting worked up over the issue... Both types of sync being available now on iOS is a good thing. Devs will learn to incorporate both and users will have their choice and probably all the same problems that they have on desktops. I had a heck of a time getting my MPC 1000 to sync with Reaper using MTC years ago, but once it was working it was a rock solid setup.
There are 2 potential problems with clock sync on iOS: the implementation of the sender and the implementation of the receiver. It isn't always clear which one is messing up and users often make assumptions.
please please please do not engage. please.
I like this forum a lot, and interacting with developers is a rare treat. Let's not make it so we can't have nice things...
Like papertiger said, MIDI clock is the lowest common denominator. It's not going anywhere, on hardware or on desktop software (which might ALSO support MTC).
It just makes sense to support it as a bare minimum, regardless of where things may be heading with IAA. And like I said in the other thread, there are tons of apps that sync to MIDI clock just fine, so it's not like it can't be done on iOS or something.
@papertiger said:
>
Apple hasn't provided any documentation that explains how it works, only example programming projects that use it. Devs are also pretty busy. I didn't get around to incorporating it until 3 weeks ago even though it came out in September. DM-1 and FunkBox also recently released updates that incorporate it so I think that we will slowly see more devs jumping on board. DM-1 works perfectly with it which is a relief, but FunkBox only works if you start at the beginning of measure 1. And sometimes its tempo stutters a little.
@dreamless said:
is that typical of Apple? Seems a bit half-assed for something that is now part of the OS...
As for Devs being busy, I am willing to keep keeping them busy as long as they listen to what users want! There is so much potential on iOS devices. It's a young platform, but it's not like there aren't parallel situations Apple and devs could learn from -- for example, the development and adoption of MIDI, VST, etc.
But, then again, I've no idea how much and what it takes coding wise...
I dont see much love from apple for iaa or audio on ios ...
They didnt bother to fix the audio hickup when an app is running and u start another. I think they think yeah lets do the desktop thing.
They just thought, yeah that audiobus thing better do something now,
The thing is u can chain together the craziest setups with ab, where no "daw/songpostipn" is involved, just a clock and i am rolling.
So to me , right now iaa is a dead end, recording daw, boring.
I prefer those setups to live on my macbook, its getting dusty, because this is much more fun 4 me.
Oh and ableton live also isnt sample exact depending on how u drive it
Happy chin strocking
Oh and psst psst, fun sells
Mostly, cough, interesting discussion. Thanks all.
I'm curious: Why is it that MIDI Beat Clock works pretty much fine with hardware boxes? Do they generally use a chipset that has more solid timing or something that isn't available on iOS hardware? I mean, I recognize the MIDI Beat Clock has drift but for the most part, I don't notice it.
Could developers choose to offer MIDI Beat Clock at resolutions more like the resolutions we're used to in 2014? 24ppqn seems awfully slow/fragile. Like, is there a way through some sort of Core MIDI handshaking process that would allow two apps to ask each other "Do you offer enhanced PPQN? Yes? Cool." And If the app doesn't answer, stick with 24?
@lala said:
Not sure how MIDI Time Code could replace MIDI.
Its mtc vs. simple midiclock
And mtc hasnt replaced midiclock
Thats the most absurd thing i heard this week.
Lol, u can vote me down as much as u like, because u cant proof me wrong, my dear.
Kindergarten.
@dreamless said:
DM-1 and FunkBox also recently released updates that incorporate it so I think that we will slowly see more devs jumping on board. DM-1 works perfectly with it which is a relief, but FunkBox only works if you start at the beginning of measure 1. And sometimes its tempo stutters a little.
I was hoping that IAA sync was fool proof and that there was no getting it wrong, when it came to implementing it, but obviously that isn't the case judging by the Funkbox experience you've described. Well it looks like it's back to square one, an apps ability to sync with other apps using IAA sync will depend on the implementation in both apps, Sigh !
I'm sure the dev will be able to fix FunkBox, it's only happening because the pattern starts from the beginning whenever you press play instead of starting where the transport is. It seems to accept the bpm but not the current position. The tempo is always in sync but it's not in time with the transport. I found that DM-1 integrates entirely which motivated me to do the same for Beat-Machine. A few days of programming misery, thats all
@dreamless you mentioned something in the thread about the upcoming update of Beat Machine (http://forum.audiob.us/discussion/4278/beat-machine-updates-coming-/p1) that intrigued me: "Apple's default AU sampler can't do this and uses much less cpu."
This statement implies that the AU protocol is built into iOS -- is that true? If so, would that pave the way for devs to sell DAW-agnostic apps that could be used as plug-ins in Cubasis, Auria, MTD, etc.? Is that essentially what IAA is?
(Also, if you are tired of answering questions, feel free to say so, and thanks again for the ones you've answered so far)
M
Yes, apps are just Audio Units, and IAA loads an app like a plugin. It's a very powerful framework that is already established so it's only going to get more powerful as iOS develops. IAA really isn't an "answer to audiobus" like some people think.
Just like i said
IAA - The desktop thing - host and plugins
To bad there isnt any host that fits my taste
All this timeline stuff from yesteryear ...
@lala said:
ehm,yeah but you have to accept the fact that not all of"us"are just sitting there to drone the whole day.Some would like to complete trax with a...uhm...kind of classic song based structure and/or more complex arrangements .You are not the only one using ipads for music,you know?