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100$ apps, iOS music market, sustainability, dog farts and Apple = communism
This discussion started in the Any news on NanoStudio2 2021 edition but it was getting off-topic and it deserved its own thread.
- Would you pay 100€ for a iOS DAW?.
- is the iOS music app market sustainable as it is?
- Is the guy behind NS2 not doing audio tracks just because tired of working weekends for us ingracious hungry lot while Apple takes 30%?
- Is Apple communist?
- What happens when/if Logic for iOS drops?
- it’s ok to spend 200$ on a desktop app but you’d rather wait for a price drop on a 5$ app.
Here’s some quotes to get started.
@blueveek said:
@tahiche said:
I’m pretty sure by now a big handicap for iOS music is that it’s simply not profitable for devs. I doubt too many of them (if any) make a decent living. So they probably have day jobs. Maybe the dev of NS2 is working Monday to Friday somewhere and has to work on audio tracks on the weekends... I think that was the case with @blueveek and Atom2.This is true on both counts for me and Atom 2. Releasing one app every year or two, at what (some say) is a reasonably cheap price, seems to guarantee never being able to develop a sustainable business (depending on the part of the world the developer lives in). Atom has always been, and necessarily continues to be, a "spare time, some weekends" type of deal.
$10-20 (minus 30% apple share) for an app which has few hundred downloads maximum definitely not worth the hundreds of hours of development if I compare how much money can a dev earn from other projects or full time IT jobs.
Since I'm not into the app development business I don't want to be seen as the 'smart guy' who comes up with proposals on how to price the music apps, I'm just thinking loud.
However I wish music app development was a much more profitable business for devs, it would benefit for the users as well.
OTOH, even if you pay more for iOS sw in total, you only pay small fragments of that total to the developers of the individual apps. So instead of paying 150 for one app on Mac/PC, you pay 150 for 30 or more apps on iOS.
As a result, the only player you really pay on iOS is Apple. Not only do they sell you your iPad as if it was pure gold, but they also take a cut from the peanuts you pay for the iOS apps. And then, when all is said and done, they even take the piss by selling you a camera kit for 40 bucks, the price of another 8-10 apps - just because they can
..
@dendy said:
@ashh
Apple is Capitalism. Capitalism is Apple. This is what we signed up for.Actually.. main advantage of capitalism - free market - is exact OPPOSITE what is Apple doing. Apple is lot more socialism than capitalism. Apple (in terms of how Appstore works, which rules are there, what is allowed and not and how prices are affected) breaks rules of free market and capitalism in all thinkable ways
..
@ervin said:
@ashh said:
Apple is Capitalism. Capitalism is Apple. This is what we signed up for.True. Except when we as users want more for free, or essentially free, because then entitlement beats capitalism.
People playing around with thousand-dollar ipads waiting for app sales so they can buy a synth from an indie dev for 5 bucks instead of 10, and then proudly stating they "would pay for an upgrade" (another 5 bucks) and feeling pleased with themselves is probably all you need to know about the state of ios music business.
Got to finish with this one...
@ashh said:
Picture the scene: you've pulled all the threads of your previous work into a magnificent tapestry. Everyone loves it. They agree, it's your opus. After a few seconds of basking in the chorus of delight you hear a discordant tone. There are bugs. You listen and begin the weary process of stamping on them. You want your customers to be happy. Then the feature requests come in. Like a doting father you indulge your children, even the ones who set fire to your hair and smack you in the nuts repeatedly. You love them all equally.Your customers want you to build an extension to the house. The children have grown. It would require tearing it down and building it back up from the foundations. You say yes because what else can you say? In your heart of hearts you are sick to the back teeth of this request. You like the house the way it is, that's why you built it this way. You sit on the porch in your rocking chair. The dog farts.
Comments
Thread title = nailed it.
I’d gladly pay 100€ for an iOS DAW.
Actually I’d pay 100€ for the entitlement to complain about the 100€ DAW. I feel like an asshole wining about the missing 3rd LFO phase automation when I paid 10€ for an app that some dev spent the weekends working on. After Apple’s cut, expenses and so on, he’s made 4€ from me. That should buy me 3.8 seconds of his/her time.
Don't forget the government taxes on top of that (which can be extraordinarily high especially in Europe), plus having recurring costs for hiring a tax advisor to do all of the monthly paperwork. Doing this stuff legally has minimum monthly expenses no matter what the profits are from app sales.
We’re waiting for the Atom2 update bundle.,. 🤦🏻
@blueveek how do you see the future?. I’m most worried about sustainability.
It can’t all depend on developers’ enthusiasm. I see all these “this app hasn’t been updated in 3 years”. Of course not!.
I love iOS music apps, I really do. But is Apple the right platform for this model?. I mean, if devs are hardly making money. Wouldn’t it make more sense to develop on an open-source platform?. I know there’s open source in iOS, like the Audiokit stuff. But iOS development looks daunting. You have to get the Xcode thing, pay a yearly dev fee to apple, they have to approve it and ultimately you’re working for them.
I work as web developer. There’s a ton of open source projects that you can evolve on, contribute... Would something like that work for music?. I’m under the impression Apple is not helping much, this being a niche market. Things like sandboxing that make what should be straightforward a convulted nightmare.
What came first, greed or profit?
I do love money as well.
But, we there are inherently down sides with all systems. Being that the least powerful or those wielding influence derive a greater degree of positive rewards or status.
The whole world is being caught flat footed on one hand and intentionally being done by the technocrats on the other.
Lose/Lose.
The world governments need to address an automated/AI world along with massive amounts of cheap labor being funneled into all major industrialized nations. We have almost 3 generations stymied by Baby Boomer policy and grasp on the levers of power and finance.
Silicon Valley has essentially end arounded the will of the people due to their power of influence or suppression.
Grown men and women with no opportunities need to at least have a creative or passion outlet that helps better the world. Unfortunately, the governments are run by people who don't understand the basics of distributed computing.
I think your thread is a great snap shot of a larger underlying issue. It is not all about rich and poor any longer. It is about the ability to be a productive member of society while being able to survive.
The time for tech and mega corporations who have eliminate millions of jobs and small businesses to step up and repair the damage they have done to the people of the world.
A world and country of educated, unemployed, frustrated, smart people leads to bad things over time.
RANT OVER
Wow. I feel bad now....
Like I wanna go delete all my feature request/suggestion posts.
Not a RANT. Very conservative description of reality. Thanks for that pos, very much agree with it !
even 200 .. or 300.
no. that is fact when you look many iOS amazing project slowly dying over last few years.
I'm biased here (because i'm considering Matt as my friend) and i'm taking right to not answer this question.
But in general, he posted on nanostudio forum that he can't afford to work on NS full time - and that was before corona. And don't make mistake, he always loved this project almost like his own child. Money was always for him on third place of importance.
Not communist, but socialists. It's a quite difference (socialism is not that bad like communism, but still bad
)
I wrote it, so obviously i had to answer YES :-D I'm from post-communistic country (Slovakia, formet Czechoslovakia), so i have maybe a bit more sensitivity to this than you guys who were born and grow in free countries.
First - it's never gonna happen. I would be extremely surprised, maybe when they completely stop shipping macbooks with intention to make iPad their complete replacemet. Not before that.
Of course - IF that happens, all other iOS DAW are instantly dead. Without chance, total extermination.
What to say. No comment.
Regarding government taxes one funny thing comes to my mind. Recently chief of FED said they have basically unlimited amount of money, they can print it forever. FED guys also said that printing such tremendous amount of dollars (they printed 30% dollars in existence just during previous year) doesn't cause any significant inflation (which is of course nonsense, but it's their official statement).
If this above is true. Why then government doesn't cancel all taxes ? If they can print unlimited amount of money, there is not needed to tax people, governments have basically unlimited source to fund all their activities :-D :-D :-D
This world is sick. Led by incompetent douchebags. That's why everything is going just from "bad" to "even worse"
OK, I think we have quite some clearer picture of how the situation looks like for the indie developers. But I wonder how it is for the big names? Sugar bytes, fab filter, Roland, Steinberg, etc. I mean is it profitable to sell Cubasis for $55? I guess so because these companies do it for the business or otherwise they wouldn’t do it, right? Or could it be a strategic investment just to be present on the platform where you don’t make money but it helps to polish your brand name? Would love to know that.
I have no idea how big is Steinberg's profit, but my raw guess is they are doing it more from promotion/advertisement reasons, to get attention to "big" Cubase, than for some significant profits. But i may be wrong ..
I don’t think 100+ is realistic price for what iOS has to offer today. It’s not on devs for sure, but they knew what they signed up to. Developing an audio app is as difficult on desktop as it is on iOS, but on iOS devs are in serious platform specific disadvantage. You pay less and you get less. I can use plugins I bought 10 years ago, may even be able to sell them on desktop, on iOS the best I can hope for is that the next iOS or app update won’t render it useless...
At this point calling out Apple on this seems pointless... they are consistent... In the past 10-15 years every decision they made was the direct opposite of what we would like to see/could benefit from in audio world.
I stopped buying apps even for £10, because at this point it looks like a bottomless pit with only few original ideas...
Sometimes I have a gut-feeling that the bigger companies use the iOS/iPadOS apps as 'Marketing/Promotional Tools'.
The cost of developing these promo apps is likely covered by the total marketing budget.
For example Yamaha's FM Essentials.app is/was part of the 'promo' for the MX line of keyboards.
As long as the MX keyboards are sold the app will be updated or at least be somewhat functional.
(This is a rough interpretation of the reply I got from Yamaha regarding IAP to unlock the app without the MX keyboard).
Without having the actual sales data I can just 'guess' what the bigger companies do...
It would be interesting to see sales figures for sound packs in AudioCopy as one example?
Considering that I'm recovering (pretty well) from extreme app-o-holism I'm a bit more careful where I spend the cash.
Should a higher-end 'DAW' pop-up for iPadOS at around $100 I would seriously consider it!
With that said I would not be surprised if Apple dropped Logic Pro in some shape or form for iPadOS.
What they could do (and what I feel they will do) is to make it a 'Free' download for existing Logic Pro users.
New Mac & iPadOS users could then choose to pay the full price or 'rent to own' at iOS/iPadOS friendly prices for $9.99 per month...
Cheers!
Having spent decades in software product development on both the technical and business side for companies from start-ups to multi-billion conglomerates, rest easy...Roland, Steinberg, Korg, et al, are making money from their apps. The most significant investment is in the initial versions; updates don't take much dollars and resources, relatively speaking.
Now having said that, there are certainly apps that aren't profitable enough, despite how much they charge us, to make significant investments in updating them more than minor fixes/improvements/new OS version support, which is why we haven't seen apps (for example, a bunch of the Korg ones) go AU.
@espiegel123 pointed out to me before that a big part of iOS development is just a tactic to entice people to buy the desktop products. In the meantime the iOS users benefit from this in terms of price, and lately, in terms of more powerful apps. Apple’s cut is not the enemy here, even without it iOS would still generally be unsustainable for devs.
I think that shaming devs about bugs is unacceptable. But having a discussion about user experience and cross referencing bugs as we do on this forum is part of what makes the iOS community great. Many other sites are just immature howls of “this program sucks” or “sit down rookie”. I enjoy the “why” that is actually backed up with eloquence and objective experience. Also from my experience, iOS devs are responsive and willing to listen to customers. Whether or not they have the means to maintain product is another matter.
iOS devs should charge more, double or triple more, but they should also offer a demo or trial, even timed 5-10 minutes would be good. A public beta as trial is also not a bad option. Charge more, offer demo, win win. And no refunds.
I will complain over a $5 cappuccino because they can make a new one. This mentality carrying over to apps is toxic. It’s more about helping the devs maintain a good product, participating in it, and supporting the product. There’s a big difference. We should all feel lucky that devs even engage with us. They don’t owe us anything except the product and an occasional refund. Respect their work, help them improve it, don’t shame or threaten them. We should all be ok with higher prices.
Probably not... Steinberg is Yamaha as is Line6.
The quality and reputation of Line6 products tremendously increased since being backed by the music giant.
Considering I spent $120 for a SWAM bundle which I use 1/100th of the time I use Cubasis, which I bought for $36 on sale, I would easily pay $100-200 for a DAW that provides ridiculous utility for me.
Of course, I’m glad it’s not so expensive, and is an anomaly in this economic system. I think, except for very particular users, that we already have more than enough apps available to make better music than our skills are capable of utilizing. IMO, new apps should immediately be more expensive. If a user cannot afford it they can rely on the great tools that are already available at ridiculous prices.
LOL. This exchange is a perfect snapshot of the ios music business right there 👏
Agree. And I’m the first one to “complain”. I guess it’s about the manners. Being oblivious to the price you pay and who made it. It hurts me to see users demanding and complaining with no positive input.
There’s a big difference in wining about Cubasis, GarageBand or Zenbeats on one side and Loopy, NS2, Atom2, LK, 4pockets and so on on the other. The first are awesome devs, probably small teams, but they’re getting paid, it’s their day job!. The latter are pulling incredible apps mostly on their spare time. I’d like them to get paid for it. They deserve it. If Atom or Loopy had sold for 80€ maybe they could have dedicated full resources to the new apps. We’d have automation and more... Here we are pressuring Buleveek and Michael to get it done. Which is fine cos it might be encouraging, but it’s also unfair.
More expensive apps with trial periods. Sounds good to me.
If Logic ever comes to iOS I agree with @dendy , it’s the end of the world as we know it. Apple would arrive on a confortable piggyback ride and then slaughter the devs that got them there. Make it available for a reasonable price and boost iPad sales.
I guess you are right. A good proof is the Cubasis feature that adds MIDI learn to the mixer is on ‘the list’ since 2014.
I was cool until the dog farted and now I'm just fucking over it and ill
The internet and human nature are the problem as well. So many people say things publicly to seem nice, compassionate, or well meaning. I just left Ace hardware near me and won’t go back. They are locally owned and more expensive but I want to shop locales. However-cashiers are ignorant and nasty. I will now to to Lowe’s for cheaper price. So, attitude matters l. Customer service matters. Many variables in this. I won’t buy new Cubasis not because of money. I felt like a big FU as a 1 Cubasis edition user I didn’t matter. One thing for sure. It is odd for people to act like a job or product is a non-profit or charity situation. It is strange. Or guilt tripping users- bizarre. If shit is messed up in your life, come here. Tell your customers. If you were good to them they will rally to your support. People need to be more transparent. I understand, money is uncomfortable for some like sex is for others. Great we have such thinkers here. AB forum is top notch
I’m also wondering if it could be a possible development that Apple drops Logic and in the same moment establishes a pro segment on the appstore. The pro segment contains apps that would overwhelm the non pro iPads because they need more RAM and CPU but they also also have a higher price tag. The separation makes sense so the normal iPad users can not buy these apps and then are unhappy that the app has a bad user experience or is even unusable. There could also be cheaper upgrade options from normal to pro apps what would make upgrading your iPad more attractive.
BTW, while we are contemplating life as we know it, Apple is busy laughing the AUS consumer protection agency in the face...
https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-says-ios-has-alternative-app-distribution-because-the-internet-exists/
I assume they buy smart lawyers with all that money and therefore must conclude their non-argument is actually designed to be an insult.
I thought I smelled something...
“Apple will reduce App Store cut to 15 percent for most developers starting January 1st
Any developer that earns less than $1 million in revenue per year is eligible”
https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/18/21572302/apple-app-store-small-business-program-commission-cut-15-percent-reduction
I would gladly have paid a couple hundred bucks for NI Massive, a great touch enhanced port of the desktop Maschine software, with all those drum kits on iOS. So far there is nothing close.
As a hobby, sure.
None of my business. (PS. Think it is 15% for under a mill now)
Different shade of red.
People will bitch like with photoshop about all the missing stuff and crappy implimentation of features.
Considering how I barely used most of the ones I bought (trial/error/crappy hosts/trial/error), it checks out.
"Is Apple communist?"
I think the question you’re trying to ask is "is Apple anticompetitive?" There’s a rather substantial difference.