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100$ apps, iOS music market, sustainability, dog farts and Apple = communism

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Comments

  • edited March 2021

    @celtic_elk said:
    "Is Apple communist?"

    I think the question you’re trying to ask is "is Apple anticompetitive?" There’s a rather substantial difference.

    If its bad and unamerucun its a commie!

  • @celtic_elk said:
    "Is Apple communist?"

    I think the question you’re trying to ask is "is Apple anticompetitive?" There’s a rather substantial difference.

    👍

  • I had often toyed with the idea of getting in to iOS development and I may still do one day once I retire from the day job.

    Before I even consider whether it would be worth it financially then I am immediately put off by the sudden need to start doing tax returns (at the moment I am salaried), plus the constant sword of damocles that is patent trolling. Realistically I do not know how often people get dinged by patent claims but I would need to set up a limited company so I could sleep at night knowing my house was not going to be taken from me just because I implemented a scroll bar or something in my $5 app.

    I've spent many hundreds of £ on StaffPad and associated add-ons as I think I'm getting a bargain vs the desktop equivalent. There is a risk the user bears when buying on iOS though because the company+app could disappear at any moment, leaving me having to rely on the iPad it is installed on never dying or getting borked by an OS update. Apple could surely do something about this scenario by allowing older versions of OS to be installed and provide perpetual access to bought software.

  • Apple Inc. leads all public companies with a $2.08 trillion market cap.
    This figure exceeds the GDP of most countries.
    It also exceeds the total value of stocks on most exchanges worldwide.
    Apple broke two records by becoming the first company to record both a $1 trillion and $2 trillion market cap.

    Dog farts can't compare

  • @zah said:
    Chris Randall from Audio Damage interview:
    https://theaudioprogrammer.com/the-audio-programmer-podcast-episode-05-chris-randall-audio-damage/

    Randall: "...iOS...holds its weight...we make a fair chunk of our yearly income from that format alone...the numbers are huge...iOS outsells desktop 8:1"

    Wow - interesting. That is quite opposite to our general gut feeling.

  • NanoStudio 2 could charge $100 a year and that would be paid with a smile over here if it meant a stream of continuous updates and development.

    A desktop class DAW in capability, with constant updates and improvements, is one of the few app types Im ok with being on a subscription model on iOS.

    @dendy tell Matt I got a $1000 ‘stimmy’ for him if he gets audio tracks on NS2 within the month. And note repeat on those pads, along with QWERTY keyboard support and/or midi Playhead control within 3 months after that.

    My only request is to be on the beta so I can help optimize the user experience before it’s fully baked in.

    No I’m not joking, yes I’m serious.

  • @MisplacedDevelopment said:

    I've spent many hundreds of £ on StaffPad and associated add-ons as I think I'm getting a bargain vs the desktop equivalent. There is a risk the user bears when buying on iOS though because the company+app could disappear at any moment, leaving me having to rely on the iPad it is installed on never dying or getting borked by an OS update. Apple could surely do something about this scenario by allowing older versions of OS to be installed and provide perpetual access to bought software.

    Apple killed Alchemy and is eyeing all our headphone jacks. Never forget!

  • edited March 2021

    @ipadbeatmaking said:
    NanoStudio 2 could charge $100 a year and that would be paid with a smile over here if it meant a stream of continuous updates and development.

    A desktop class DAW in capability, with constant updates and improvements, is one of the few app types Im ok with being on a subscription model on iOS.

    @dendy tell Matt I got a $1000 ‘stimmy’ for him if he gets audio tracks on NS2 within the month. And note repeat on those pads, along with QWERTY keyboard support and/or midi Playhead control within 3 months after that.

    My only request is to be on the beta so I can help optimize the user experience before it’s fully baked in.

    No I’m not joking, yes I’m serious.

    I was pro-pro-sub for many years and just assumed/expected progress to be much quicker. I suppose there were a lot of OS and hardware limits that still need(ed) to be passed. Maybe this is five years off?

  • Quite a few bands now crowdfund new albums, would this strategy work in iOS dev? Would Apple even allow it since they would not get their cut?

  • @zah said:
    Chris Randall from Audio Damage interview:
    https://theaudioprogrammer.com/the-audio-programmer-podcast-episode-05-chris-randall-audio-damage/

    Randall: "...iOS...holds its weight...we make a fair chunk of our yearly income from that format alone...the numbers are huge...iOS outsells desktop 8:1"

    People keep posting this as if these numbers apply across the board and indicate that iOS app development is more viable than it is. They ignore that, for instance, AD seems not to mean enough money to provide support or timely updates. A number of developers of popular music apps and who are considered among the best developers have said that pretty much no music app developers can earn a living from iOS app development in any sort of sustainable way...nor have consistent enough income to take on employees.

    Chris Randall’s experience may not extrapolate out as widely as you think.

  • Good conversation here but I do have one nit: The only part of Apple’s approach that resembles socialism is the part where they charge rather-high taxes in exchange for rather-good infrastructure. After that, Apple’s cut (which is almost purely profit at this point) goes into an economy that generally subsidizes the already-wealthy in the name of job creation. They aren’t investing 15-30% of App Store revenue into things that help developers earn a living; they’re using it to pad EBITDA and increase investor confidence.

    It’s neither capitalism nor socialism — I would call it “corporatism” given the outsized influence of big business and well-funded lobby groups, but I haven’t heard anyone use that term since first-year university so I don’t even know if it’s a “real” concept anymore.

    But my point is, we’re still thinking in terms of early-twentieth century ideologies while our actual circumstances have become something entirely different and unique.

  • @krassmann said:

    @zah said:
    Chris Randall from Audio Damage interview:
    https://theaudioprogrammer.com/the-audio-programmer-podcast-episode-05-chris-randall-audio-damage/

    Randall: "...iOS...holds its weight...we make a fair chunk of our yearly income from that format alone...the numbers are huge...iOS outsells desktop 8:1"

    Wow - interesting. That is quite opposite to our general gut feeling.

    They only outsell desktop in numbers because of the price. It’s not even question of cheap against the same on desktop... it’s underpriced because that’s the whole point of this business model - impulsive purchases... we even consume these apps like that - fix for a day.
    I would like to know how much AD has to spend to support their desktop line, because on iOS it’s not much if any at all, and I’m not complaining, this was the deal...
    How realistic is it to expect app like Fundamental to get touchable interface? Probably will never happen, yet on iOS they are encouraged to carry on releasing things in almost unusable way, just because it’s £10?
    On desktop they couldn’t do the same... not for £10 not for £100... changing prices won’t help anyone without changing the business model

  • @zah said:
    Chris Randall from Audio Damage interview:
    https://theaudioprogrammer.com/the-audio-programmer-podcast-episode-05-chris-randall-audio-damage/

    Randall: "...iOS...holds its weight...we make a fair chunk of our yearly income from that format alone...the numbers are huge...iOS outsells desktop 8:1"

    yes, because they have a lot of small apps, plus they AU plugins ... very different if you have one BIG apps, then numbers starts go complete opposite , especially DAW-like app ..

  • edited March 2021

    @tahiche said:

    • Would you pay 100€ for a iOS DAW? No, but that's just me. For someone who wants to work primarily or 100% in iOS, it might make sense. I hardly use the iOS DAWs I bought at a discount.

    • is the iOS music app market sustainable as it is? This has been questioned for years. The music app market and Apple's profits continue to grow, so I would presume so. Obviously, not all developers are going to succeed, and some will simply move on due to other opportunities and/or poor return on investment.

    • Is the guy behind NS2 not doing audio tracks just because tired of working weekends for us ingracious hungry lot while Apple takes 30%? No idea, and no judgement other than some people have a bizarre sense of entitlement. NS2 is a hell of a deal as is.

    • Is Apple communist? Nah, just another greedy megacorp.

    • What happens when/if Logic for iOS drops? There will be much rejoicing.

    • it’s ok to spend 200$ on a desktop app but you’d rather wait for a price drop on a 5$ app. I can't relate and wouldn't spend 200$ on a desktop app anyway.

  • @telecharge said:

    @tahiche said:

    • Would you pay 100€ for a iOS DAW? No, but that's just me. For someone who wants to work primarily or 100% in iOS, it might make sense. I hardly use the iOS DAWs I bought at a discount.

    • is the iOS music app market sustainable as it is? This has been questioned for years. The music app market and Apple's profits continue to grow, so I would presume so. Obviously, not all developers are going to succeed, and some will simply move on due to other opportunities and/or poor return on investment.

    • Is the guy behind NS2 not doing audio tracks just because tired of working weekends for us ingracious hungry lot while Apple takes 30%? No idea, and no judgement other than some people have a bizarre sense of entitlement. NS2 is a hell of a deal as is.

    • Is Apple communist? Nah, just another greedy megacorp.

    • What happens when/if Logic for iOS drops? There will be much rejoicing.

    • it’s ok to spend 200$ on a desktop app but you’d rather wait for a price drop on a 5$ app. I can't relate and wouldn't spend 200$ on a desktop app anyway.

    I totally agree with your answers.

  • @ervin said:
    BTW, while we are contemplating life as we know it, Apple is busy laughing the AUS consumer protection agency in the face...

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-says-ios-has-alternative-app-distribution-because-the-internet-exists/

    I assume they buy smart lawyers with all that money and therefore must conclude their non-argument is actually designed to be an insult. :)

    WTF!. Are they saying that AppleStore is not in a dominant or monopoly position because there is internet?.

    "Even if a user only owns iOS-based devices, distribution is far from limited to the Apple App Store because developers have multiple alternative channels to reach that user.

    "The whole web is available to them, and iOS devices have unrestricted and uncontrolled access to it. One common approach is for users to purchase and consume digital content or services on a website."

  • @ervin said:

    @celtic_elk said:
    "Is Apple communist?"

    I think the question you’re trying to ask is "is Apple anticompetitive?" There’s a rather substantial difference.

    👍

    I was looking for a Qanon alternative-truth catchy hook that went well with the dog fart. Obviously not communist, but they do the fit the “one brand of tomato sauce and no kiwis on the shelf”.

  • Now this is alarming. Seems no one connected with screen music has ever read Karl Marx or any economics ... no wonder you all find yerselves down pit working for Apple for tips.

    Apple is what capitalism has become ... deeply antisocial, decidedly private capital and inherently exploitative. You just don't like it... so it's something just really unamerican - just must be. Isn't though ... no less american than cotton or tobacco. Apple just has a new model of wage slavery ... one with no wages. Not even Amazon can do that yet.

    Apps - any and all of them - are why people buy new ipads every few years... they also save Apple from all that thankless coding and imagination... they let you do it - within limits. And they take 30% for the privilege. They need you as much as you need them.

    Much as I admire the skill and imagination of developers when it comes to midi and music I wouldn't be asking for much political or economic analysis as an IAP ... obviously not your forte ... don't even know who's screwing whom... you bring yer own lube, poor bastards.

    Worth remembering that a lot of people were damaged and died because of these isms ... worth getting their words and ideas right... or we won't understand ... they'll all just be evil and unamerican ... even - gasp - foreign ideas. How scary is that!

    Now get back down that mine and start coding.

  • Wouldn't pay $100 for any iOS daw. I don't think it would survive in the current landscape at all. Would likely grab a small niche fanbase of people deluding themselves into thinking it works better than anything they already owned just because it costs more.

  • @KirbyMumbo said:
    Wouldn't pay $100 for any iOS daw. I don't think it would survive in the current landscape at all. Would likely grab a small niche fanbase of people deluding themselves into thinking it works better than anything they already owned just because it costs more.

    Some truth in this.

  • @tahiche said:

    @KirbyMumbo said:
    Wouldn't pay $100 for any iOS daw. I don't think it would survive in the current landscape at all. Would likely grab a small niche fanbase of people deluding themselves into thinking it works better than anything they already owned just because it costs more.

    Some truth in this.

    Then you’ll get what you paid $10 for with a small user base. Which is where we are right now.

  • wimwim
    edited March 2021

    As someone who dabbles in (very) small amounts of investing I find the assumption that Apple is some giant money suck siphoning from the lower classes to the top 1% puzzling.

    Sure, some incredibly wealthy people get staggering income from Apple, but it's incorrect to assume that Apple's growth/success only benefits the already wealthy.

    • 31.13% is owned by institutional investors such as Vanguard Group, Black Rock Investments, etc.
    • 28.15% is owned by mutual funds
    • 0.33% is owned by individual investors

    The institutional investors and mutual funds make some people very rich, but anyone can share in that profit, and many do without even knowing it. Anyone with a retirement savings plan (such as a US 401K, IRA, or other retirement account) probably has a portion of their retirement savings indirectly invested in Apple through ETFs or Mutual funds.

    Anyone with the means to invest at some level in Apple can share in their profits. Many people do through their retirement accounts or through direct or indirect investments.

    If one had invested $1,000 in Apple in 2014, they would have about $6,750 at the end of 2020. Not bad. I wish I had. :D

  • There are a few problems and only time will tell if they will change: the way the App Store is set up for iOS (lots of problems, the least of which is Apple's cut) has created an ecosystem that simply isn't really economically viable for professional developers of iOS music software who are focused on iOS development (meaning doing it as a full-time business -- as far as I know all of the iOS only apps that we know and love are developed by people who have other sources of income than their music app development -- they are professional developers but their music apps aren't their sole source of income). Apple also is not super committed to our niche -- so there are issues on the OS side itself that makes life harder for developers of serious audio software.

    The other big problem is the customer base. A large enough customer base for serious professional tools is just not really here yet.

    The overwhelming majority of folks here (and this is probably even more true of the broader iOS music app market) dabblers -- many are very serious and accomplished dabblers, but they are dabblers nonetheless. There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of music app consumers serious enough to pay prices that pro quality software costs to develop and support.

    People not involved on the music app development side here on AB Forum give the impression of thinking that there is a lot more to be earned than is realistically possible with the current dynamics of the market. That is why so many developers leap into this market with dreams of ongoing feature development who after three months or six months or 12 months lose their enthusiasm. Many longtime developers kind of peter out -- unless they really enjoy writing mobile apps for their own sake, and some do.

    Every so often someone who is a professional developer in another domain or a marketing person from another domain seems to think that the app developers here are stupid or something and have failed to explore price elasticity enough to determine the right price. There is a reason that the larger companies that have entered the market -- who do have people whose job and training is to study price elasticity -- are measured in their investment -- and the longer they have been in the market, the more measured their investment seems to be: the dynamics of the market are so poor that there is not really a sustainable income to be made if you are focused on iOS apps. There might be sustainable supplemental income -- but as a business by itself -- the dynamics as they currently are broken.

  • @drez said:

    @tahiche said:

    @KirbyMumbo said:
    Wouldn't pay $100 for any iOS daw. I don't think it would survive in the current landscape at all. Would likely grab a small niche fanbase of people deluding themselves into thinking it works better than anything they already owned just because it costs more.

    Some truth in this.

    Then you’ll get what you paid $10 for with a small user base. Which is where we are right now.

    What does the current environment not have for music-making? I see a few holes but nothing that would stop anyone from making music seriously.

  • @Soundscaper said:
    Now this is alarming. Seems no one connected with screen music has ever read Karl Marx or any economics ... no wonder you all find yerselves down pit working for Apple for tips.

    Apple is what capitalism has become ... deeply antisocial, decidedly private capital and inherently exploitative. You just don't like it... so it's something just really unamerican - just must be. Isn't though ... no less american than cotton or tobacco. Apple just has a new model of wage slavery ... one with no wages. Not even Amazon can do that yet.

    Apps - any and all of them - are why people buy new ipads every few years... they also save Apple from all that thankless coding and imagination... they let you do it - within limits. And they take 30% for the privilege. They need you as much as you need them.

    Much as I admire the skill and imagination of developers when it comes to midi and music I wouldn't be asking for much political or economic analysis as an IAP ... obviously not your forte ... don't even know who's screwing whom... you bring yer own lube, poor bastards.

    Worth remembering that a lot of people were damaged and died because of these isms ... worth getting their words and ideas right... or we won't understand ... they'll all just be evil and unamerican ... even - gasp - foreign ideas. How scary is that!

    Now get back down that mine and start coding.

    While I'm also shocked to see Apple described in terms of "socialism" and "communism" simply because they have strict control of the market, I think this is very unhelpful to clarify what is at stake and to raise collective consciousness.

    If anything deserves comparison to the spirit of Marx (and not the actual implementation of State socialism/communism in some places during the 20C as authoritarian controls of the market, which were always a temporary stage and are wildly misrepresented in the West) in iOS music making, is the spirit of comradery, collaboration, disinterested sharing of knowledge and sense of collective empowerment that results from ownership of the means of production which is evident every day in this very forum—especially because of the international and quite diverse community it is.

    Apple is definitely the best example of greedy corporate capitalism and is trying hard to convert intellectual laborers into wage laborers, and it is up to us to resist that effort by remaining united. Without knowing much about other iOS ecosystems, I'd say there is nothing like the iOS world right now. It might not be profitable, but it is infinitely productive, and if oriented in the right way, it can carve a big space for itself away to resist such exploitation. Coders, artists, and intellectuals generally are in a unique position in that we cannot be completely alienated from our labor, and while corporate capitalists might extract surplus value from that labor in the sale of apps, what is produced by this labor is not limited to the app itself—it's not a commodity—but persists as code and knowledge generally (which is why open source approaches are most preferable, although not the only option).

    A parallel with the academic world (which is precarizing and exploitative in its own way) can be illuminating. A scholar spends 10+ years between getting an undergraduate, one or two MAs and a PhD, and produces articles and books which only produce monetary value for journals and editors. Scholars are not paid a single dollar for an article that results from 2+ years of research or for a book that takes 5-10 years to write (royalties are negligible). Both of those sell for way more than their commercial value because they are targeted to universities, not to individual purchasers, and are barely enough to keep the publishing infrastructure alive—although this probably won't last for long.

    In its ideal form, the system is designed so that the articles and books evidence scholars of high capacity who can be hired as researchers and teachers at universities, institutes and so on, because of their intellectual value, not because of the individual monetary value of each product. In the coding world, this is somewhat equivalent to companies "discovering" indie coders and hiring them. I don't know how much this happens in the iOS world, but the guy who made the Moog 15 app said he was hired after he proposed to develop some features in Animoog for free, if I remember the story well (as told in a recent video interview posted here somewhere). Stagelight was purchased by Roland and the developers were hired (I might be wrong about this too). I know very little of the programming ecosystem to say more, but it seems that supporting open source alternatives, coding languages which are not owned by Apple, and collective repositories is the best way to produce high quality products without turning into wage laborers for the corporations.

    We are living in the weirdest of times and distinguishing free markets from exploitation might seem harder than ever, but the spirit should be one of collaboration and coming together, not putting down others because they can't articulate a political position correctly.

    tldr; don't be a jerk. let's work and resist together. Proletariats of the Audiobus world unite (or something)!

  • People talk about Apple/iOS being the problem, but is there any evidence that anyone’s making better money developing apps for Android? If not, then it seems that consumer expectations around mobile app pricing and development are more likely the problem, not Apple as such.

  • edited March 2021

    @celtic_elk said:
    People talk about Apple/iOS being the problem, but is there any evidence that anyone’s making better money developing apps for Android? If not, then it seems that consumer expectations around mobile app pricing and development are more likely the problem, not Apple as such.

    Unfortunately Android is hardly on the map... and Apple insisting on ‘laptop replacement’ doesn’t help to set realistic expectations, but they matched the price, so that’s something...

  • It’s difficult to really understand this market without having access to some good data.

    The first thing I would be interested to know is how are what I consider to be the best in class developers doing on iOS? The ones who can marry top notch DSP with awesome UI and who can code your socks off. I’m talking @brambos , @DJB (Toneboosters), FabFilter, etc. level of quality. Because if they are not doing well then we’re in trouble.

    Next question, what is the impact of not being able to trade or resell apps on iOS? I know that I can buy a Waves, Eventide or Plugin Alliance VST on the desktop for $30 and resell it for at least $10-15. Even the more expensive plugins you can almost break even on. Buy a Valhalla plugin for $50, sell it for $40 if you want to a year later. Buy Arturia Pigments synth and you are pretty much guaranteed to resell if for close to what you paid if you got it on offer. So what does that say for desktop vs iOS pricing?

    What is the value of no piracy on iOS? Does that even out with Apple taking their cut? (Who’s the pirates? Lol).

    Do lower priced iOS apps sell at higher volumes? Is that a better strategy than higher priced apps? Again, only the developers can answer that.

    What about marketing? Who is doing it right? How can the indie developers improve their marketing? Should there be an alliance of iOS devs to at least coordinate marketing?

    Reaper DAW is $60 for most of us. How is that sustainable? When you compare NS2 or BM3 to Reaper they are not as fully featured. Stepping up a pricing tier, you compare them to Ableton, they don’t have the same amount or quality of instruments and sounds, IMO. Nor the tutorials etc. So our iOS DAWs are amazing but not necessarily equivalent.

    So, I have always agreed that iOS prices need to increase but I think there’s more to the conversation than just higher prices. I’m cheering all iOS developers on though. I know it can be a real labour of love.

  • edited March 2021

    @dvi said:

    You are totally right. The appstore is no communism but rather an extreme form of protectionism. A walled garden that keeps competitors out. I mean GPL is incompatible with the appstore - do I have to say more.

    tldr; don't be a jerk. let's work and resist together. Proletariats of the Audiobus world unite (or something)!

    🤣🤣🤣 count me in.

  • @KirbyMumbo said:

    @drez said:

    @tahiche said:

    @KirbyMumbo said:
    Wouldn't pay $100 for any iOS daw. I don't think it would survive in the current landscape at all. Would likely grab a small niche fanbase of people deluding themselves into thinking it works better than anything they already owned just because it costs more.

    Some truth in this.

    Then you’ll get what you paid $10 for with a small user base. Which is where we are right now.

    What does the current environment not have for music-making? I see a few holes but nothing that would stop anyone from making music seriously.

    Indeed, there are plenty of options ranging from free to $50 USD. Isn't it a good thing that the DAW market is fragmented? It is an indicator of healthy competition. The same is true for desktops/laptops with no clear leader except for Pro Tools in professional studios, and that market is shrinking fast.

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