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Atom2 for Dummies

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Comments

  • OscarSouthOscarSouth

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @OscarSouth said:

    @MisplacedDevelopment said:
    I know it is obvious but I should mention that this way of working does not stop you from creating MIDI elsewhere and then bringing it in to this environment for arrangement into a larger song. For example, a drum sequence may come from Quantum and the melody and bass come from a score in StaffPad. As long as it ends up as MIDI then it can be imported and used as a pattern. Even if the music comes from other apps you still benefit from the flexible arrangement.

    Abstraction is amazing and incredibly powerful when applied to any field -- I'm with you all the way on that.

    The only reason that I'm not personally using Atom2 for musical pattern abstraction is that I'm using a much more powerful abstraction tool called 'TidalCycles' (powerful in that the limitations of a GUI are discarded in favour of a pure text interface, and the composability of text is highly flexible). I do pretty much exactly what you're describing on that abstraction layer, which then collapses its abstracted complexity down into Atom2 as a more 'literal' persistence layer.

    Let it be said that I see this flexibility of how Atom2 is utilised as an absolute positive point and design triumph for the project.

    Here's a quick technical example of musical abstraction with a linear approach:

    Here's a semi-structured-jam piece where I'm 'cliplaunching' in pretty much exactly the way that you've described with regard to Atom2:

    As mentioned above, Atom2 gives me an independently controllable modular layer of persistence that can be separated from the abstraction layer and taken out to concerts where 'live coding' in real time might not be context-suitable (or where I want to perform a different instrument).

    I could also theoretically facilitate the entire composition process with just Atom2 -- using the modular GUI interface to basically achieve the same thing (nonlinear abstraction layer collapsing down into a linear persistence layer).

    I don't have any demos of working with Atom2 yet (apart from the bug report vids above) but I'll think about making some when I get the whole system flowing smoothly.

    Fascinating, but not really what one expects in a “for Dummies” thread!

    Haha, perhaps, but there’s really no way to approach an understanding of abstraction other than looking at the same picture many times from many vantage points, slowly chipping away at the limits of comprehension. Perhaps I might have provided a fleeting insight from an alternative perspective :)

  • PoppadocrockPoppadocrock

    @ecou said:
    Not knowing anything about Atom, does it have features for generative music?

    @wim said:

    @ecou said:
    Can somebody tell me if Atom 2 as any generative features.

    No, it does not.

    It has overall probability of notes playing and velocity randomization. It has ways that you could use it semi-generatively. But that just isn't its focus.

    I suppose you could plaster in a shit-load of notes and crank the probability down low and hope for the best.

    It doesn’t generate any midi, it records, import/exports, loops, edits, and triggers synths/drum machines/samplers, but if you put a few notes in, you can do some crazy stuff. Like play it at different speeds, or even backwards, velocity randomization, miss note randomization, swing, flip it on x/y axis, copy to a clipboard and move to another instance. So it’s not generative, but it has several features that make it awesome for adding some randomization, and the ability to basically be a “mad scientist” with midi.

  • blueveekblueveek
    edited April 2021

    Here's a nice, simple, and straightforward example of a song with verse, chorus, bridge in Drambo, using and Atom's new patterns mechanisms for arranging.

    Since Atom has Drambo integration, there's no setup required – just create 3 patterns in one instance and you're good to go.

    @Intrepolicious said:
    Finally had some time to sit down with Atom after the latest pattern overhaul update.. and wow, this is going to be all I need to compose complete songs. Clip wise or not, there’s nothing stopping me!

    Comment from here: https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/945860/#Comment_945860

  • Edward_AlexanderEdward_Alexander

    @RockBottom said:
    I am a level-zero dummy actually: please explain why would I need to launch clips instead of playing good old sequences of midi events, in the first place?

    Nobody “needs to”. The thing is, we can! :)

    @blueveek said:
    Here's a nice, simple, and straightforward example of a song with verse, chorus, bridge in Drambo, using and Atom's new patterns mechanisms for arranging.

    Since Atom has Drambo integration, there's no setup required – just create 3 patterns in one instance and you're good to go.

    @Intrepolicious said:
    Finally had some time to sit down with Atom after the latest pattern overhaul update.. and wow, this is going to be all I need to compose complete songs. Clip wise or not, there’s nothing stopping me!

    Comment from here: https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/945860/#Comment_945860

    It really is as easy as ABC!

    I just had another session going using Piano Motifs to generate the midi notes. This works perfectly in “slide-over mode” on top of Drambo with Atom pickup the notes. This gets real interesting, real quick, if you’re specifying different scales at each end!

  • ExAsperis99ExAsperis99

    @OscarSouth said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @OscarSouth said:

    @MisplacedDevelopment said:
    I know it is obvious but I should mention that this way of working does not stop you from creating MIDI elsewhere and then bringing it in to this environment for arrangement into a larger song. For example, a drum sequence may come from Quantum and the melody and bass come from a score in StaffPad. As long as it ends up as MIDI then it can be imported and used as a pattern. Even if the music comes from other apps you still benefit from the flexible arrangement.

    Abstraction is amazing and incredibly powerful when applied to any field -- I'm with you all the way on that.

    The only reason that I'm not personally using Atom2 for musical pattern abstraction is that I'm using a much more powerful abstraction tool called 'TidalCycles' (powerful in that the limitations of a GUI are discarded in favour of a pure text interface, and the composability of text is highly flexible). I do pretty much exactly what you're describing on that abstraction layer, which then collapses its abstracted complexity down into Atom2 as a more 'literal' persistence layer.

    Let it be said that I see this flexibility of how Atom2 is utilised as an absolute positive point and design triumph for the project.

    Here's a quick technical example of musical abstraction with a linear approach:

    Here's a semi-structured-jam piece where I'm 'cliplaunching' in pretty much exactly the way that you've described with regard to Atom2:

    As mentioned above, Atom2 gives me an independently controllable modular layer of persistence that can be separated from the abstraction layer and taken out to concerts where 'live coding' in real time might not be context-suitable (or where I want to perform a different instrument).

    I could also theoretically facilitate the entire composition process with just Atom2 -- using the modular GUI interface to basically achieve the same thing (nonlinear abstraction layer collapsing down into a linear persistence layer).

    I don't have any demos of working with Atom2 yet (apart from the bug report vids above) but I'll think about making some when I get the whole system flowing smoothly.

    Fascinating, but not really what one expects in a “for Dummies” thread!

    Haha, perhaps, but there’s really no way to approach an understanding of abstraction other than looking at the same picture many times from many vantage points, slowly chipping away at the limits of comprehension. Perhaps I might have provided a fleeting insight from an alternative perspective :)

    Ha, yes absolutely.
    Although as delightful as the classical-composer analogy was, I must disagree: Stravinsky is totally a timeline guy. :)

  • wimwim

    @RockBottom said:
    I am a level-zero dummy actually: please explain why would I need to launch clips instead of playing good old sequences of midi events, in the first place?

    A clip is a good old sequence of midi events. Only, rather than arranging them on a timeline like in a daw, you trigger them when you want them, either interactively, or by setting up a sequence of midi events (clip) to trigger them.

    It's just a different, more freeform way of working. The recent round of "clip launchers" also gives a way to stay within AUM rather than needing to switch out to an external app like Xequence 2.

    (BTW, Xequence 2 is an excellent timeline/track based midi sequencer. B) )

  • OscarSouthOscarSouth

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @OscarSouth said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @OscarSouth said:

    @MisplacedDevelopment said:
    I know it is obvious but I should mention that this way of working does not stop you from creating MIDI elsewhere and then bringing it in to this environment for arrangement into a larger song. For example, a drum sequence may come from Quantum and the melody and bass come from a score in StaffPad. As long as it ends up as MIDI then it can be imported and used as a pattern. Even if the music comes from other apps you still benefit from the flexible arrangement.

    Abstraction is amazing and incredibly powerful when applied to any field -- I'm with you all the way on that.

    The only reason that I'm not personally using Atom2 for musical pattern abstraction is that I'm using a much more powerful abstraction tool called 'TidalCycles' (powerful in that the limitations of a GUI are discarded in favour of a pure text interface, and the composability of text is highly flexible). I do pretty much exactly what you're describing on that abstraction layer, which then collapses its abstracted complexity down into Atom2 as a more 'literal' persistence layer.

    Let it be said that I see this flexibility of how Atom2 is utilised as an absolute positive point and design triumph for the project.

    Here's a quick technical example of musical abstraction with a linear approach:

    Here's a semi-structured-jam piece where I'm 'cliplaunching' in pretty much exactly the way that you've described with regard to Atom2:

    As mentioned above, Atom2 gives me an independently controllable modular layer of persistence that can be separated from the abstraction layer and taken out to concerts where 'live coding' in real time might not be context-suitable (or where I want to perform a different instrument).

    I could also theoretically facilitate the entire composition process with just Atom2 -- using the modular GUI interface to basically achieve the same thing (nonlinear abstraction layer collapsing down into a linear persistence layer).

    I don't have any demos of working with Atom2 yet (apart from the bug report vids above) but I'll think about making some when I get the whole system flowing smoothly.

    Fascinating, but not really what one expects in a “for Dummies” thread!

    Haha, perhaps, but there’s really no way to approach an understanding of abstraction other than looking at the same picture many times from many vantage points, slowly chipping away at the limits of comprehension. Perhaps I might have provided a fleeting insight from an alternative perspective :)

    Ha, yes absolutely.
    Although as delightful as the classical-composer analogy was, I must disagree: Stravinsky is totally a timeline guy. :)

    No way! He even described himself along the lines of a constructer of blocks of ideas. I’ve pulled apart a few of his orchestrations and I feel that his real genius was weaving those ideas together so seamlessly that they feel linear. He was very influenced by Debussy.

  • carvingcodecarvingcode

    @ecou said:
    Not knowing anything about Atom, does it have features for generative music?

    It has Probability, pattern mutation, and the ability to record on the fly from other AUs that have the generative tools you prefer.

  • cfourcfour

    Since this is an Atom for dummies thread I will go ahead with my noob question.
    I noticed under the patterns the "switch source" and "switch channel" options. I assume these are used to trigger different patterns, but I am lost as to how you achieve this in AUM. And by the way, what does "PC" refer to? The one that makes more sense to me is the "CC" option, but how do you go about switching patterns using it? Can I have an instance of Atom Piano Roll sending midi messages to another Atom Piano Roll, making it change patterns?
    Thanks!

  • wimwim

    @cfour said:
    Since this is an Atom for dummies thread I will go ahead with my noob question.
    I noticed under the patterns the "switch source" and "switch channel" options. I assume these are used to trigger different patterns, but I am lost as to how you achieve this in AUM. And by the way, what does "PC" refer to? The one that makes more sense to me is the "CC" option, but how do you go about switching patterns using it? Can I have an instance of Atom Piano Roll sending midi messages to another Atom Piano Roll, making it change patterns?
    Thanks!

    Switch Source sets the type of midi message that will change patterns. Choices are Note, Velocity, CC and PC. PC stands for "Program Change" and its just another kind of midi message, similar to a CC in some ways.

    Switch Channel sets the midi channel to listen to for whatever message you'll be sending to change patterns.

    To change patterns you just need to route the selected type of message to the Atom instance. Just as Atom can send to other apps, so it can receive from other apps or controllers.

    To change patterns in an Atom instance from another instance it's best to use notes. When you change the Switch Source to notes you'll see the note that triggers each pattern displayed at the top of the pattern. Note 0 (lowest note possible to play) triggers the first pattern, and each pattern trigger is up one note from there.

    You can't use CC from Atom because it doesn't send CC's but you can use it from controllers or apps that do.

  • cfourcfour

    Thanks a ton wim, it works like a charm.
    I have two related minor questions: 1) Despite the pattern changing I can only see the pattern where the "focus" is clicked. Is there any way to change the focus when the pattern changes (i.e., see the pattern that is playing on the piano roll)
    and 2) I cannot use midimixer to achieve this (using cc) as midimixer gives the option to send messages by using CC20, CC21 and CC22, while patterning starts from CC0. I would have to create 22 patterns to control the last three, is that correct?

    thanks again!

  • wimwim
    edited April 2021

    @cfour said:
    Thanks a ton wim, it works like a charm.
    I have two related minor questions: 1) Despite the pattern changing I can only see the pattern where the "focus" is clicked. Is there any way to change the focus when the pattern changes (i.e., see the pattern that is playing on the piano roll)

    No, but this is a suggestion I've dropped in TestFlight feedback. It can get confusing sometimes when you think you're editing the current pattern.

    and 2) I cannot use midimixer to achieve this (using cc) as midimixer gives the option to send messages by using CC20, CC21 and CC22, while patterning starts from CC0. I would have to create 22 patterns to control the last three, is that correct?

    Oooh, yeh, I see what you mean. I assumed CC switch source meant you could select a CC then send different values to change patterns. I guess the way it is now is good for controllers that work like switches, sending 127 on a particular cc when pressed, but for knobs on a controller or automation from other apps, it's not really useful. Ping: @blueveek - an CC/Value option for changing patterns would be super welcome.

    I guess you could make it work by using mfxConvert in between to convert the CC's to PC or Notes or something. Kinda messy though.

    thanks again!

    No problem!

  • blueveekblueveek
    edited April 2021

    @cfour said:
    2) I cannot use midimixer to achieve this (using cc) as midimixer gives the option to send messages by using CC20, CC21 and CC22, while patterning starts from CC0. I would have to create 22 patterns to control the last three, is that correct?

    If you want to switch with individual CC messages, keep in mind that pattern switching is modulo based - this means that if you have 12 patterns, note 0, note 12, note 24, etc. will play pattern 1. This is nice because it could correspond to C-1, C0, and C1 for example. Or, if you have an AU that generates random/semi-random notes (e.g Autony), it leads to some nice creative pattern switching explorations.

    If you want to switch patterns with a single CC, but use its value, map the “Play Pattern” parameter. This works great for using a single knob on your controller to switch through patterns. It currently goes from 0-15 (16 in total) because I wanted the defaults to suit live performances, but let me know if that’s insufficient for you. (thanks for the ping @wim)

    An option to add CC value switching that’s not based on parameters is planned.
    Finer-tuned control over which MIDI value can be used to switch each individual pattern is also planned.

  • wimwim

    @blueveek said:

    @cfour said:
    2) I cannot use midimixer to achieve this (using cc) as midimixer gives the option to send messages by using CC20, CC21 and CC22, while patterning starts from CC0. I would have to create 22 patterns to control the last three, is that correct?

    If you want to switch with individual CC messages, keep in mind that pattern switching is modulo based - this means that if you have 12 patterns, note 0, note 12, note 24, etc. will play pattern 1. This is nice because it could correspond to C-1, C0, and C1 for example. Or, if you have an AU that generates random/semi-random notes (e.g Autony), it leads to some nice creative pattern switching explorations.

    If you want to switch patterns with a single CC, but use its value, map the “Play Pattern” parameter. This works great for using a single knob on your controller to switch through patterns. It currently goes from 0-15 (16 in total) because I wanted the defaults to suit live performances, but let me know if that’s insufficient for you. (thanks for the ping @wim)

    Ahh! I should have thought of that. AU parameter switch should work well for CCs.

    An option to add CC value switching that’s not based on parameters is planned.

    That will be great for using Atom with a controller in different hosts without having to map parameters. 👍🏼

    Finer-tuned control over which MIDI value can be used to switch each individual pattern is also planned.

    Awesome! That will be nice for not needing to juggle pattern positions to get the desired control value.

    Never-ending goodness!

  • cfourcfour

    Thanks for all the help blueveek and wim!
    For the time being I have had more luck with a note triggering the pattern (for instance with another instance of Atom) than with CC. Via CC I tried: 1) midimixer, and it did its job, but it was more cumbersome to set and 2) stepbud, but I could not trigger anything. But perhaps that was just me not knowing what I was doing
    In any case, triggering the pattern change via notes worked very well :smiley:

  • wimwim
    edited April 2021

    @cfour said:
    Thanks for all the help blueveek and wim!
    For the time being I have had more luck with a note triggering the pattern (for instance with another instance of Atom) than with CC. Via CC I tried: 1) midimixer, and it did its job, but it was more cumbersome to set and 2) stepbud, but I could not trigger anything. But perhaps that was just me not knowing what I was doing
    In any case, triggering the pattern change via notes worked very well :smiley:

    Yep. That’s how I do it too. It’s a beautiful thing.
    Using LK clips with a single note in them is a nice way too.

  • xorxor

    @cfour said:
    Thanks for all the help blueveek and wim!
    For the time being I have had more luck with a note triggering the pattern (for instance with another instance of Atom) than with CC. Via CC I tried: 1) midimixer, and it did its job, but it was more cumbersome to set and 2) stepbud, but I could not trigger anything. But perhaps that was just me not knowing what I was doing
    In any case, triggering the pattern change via notes worked very well :smiley:

    StepBud, in theory, should be simple to set up. You’ll need to go to the midi setting page and add as many custom cc’s as you have patterns, starting at 0 and working up. Then on each cc, set the value to 127 for the step(s) you want that pattern playing and the rest of the steps to 0.

    But, StepBud is doing very weird things with cc#3. Even though I have three steps(bars) of 0 and one of 127, it is sending out a value of three on each step(bar). Maybe @cem_olcay might have an idea of what’s going on. The result was atom was stuck on pattern 4 (cc 3) since that’s the last cc it received except for the fourth step(measure) when all the other cc’s were 0 and cc 3 should have been 127 but was still 3 and for some reason atom hops to pattern 2 (cc 1) all quite confusing.

    I’d wait until atom’s automation update comes out and use it to generate the cc’s or try another sequencer like LK, Helium or Drambo.

  • cfourcfour

    Thanks Xor for the comment. That is exactly what I did, but could not get any response from Atom. I tried the 3 CCs at once (CC0, CC1, CC2), but that did not work:
    I recorded my screen, and as you can see the pattern that is playing is always the same. To make it more obvious I placed 3 patterns, one triggers a chord, the other a scale, the last one a single note. No matter what CC is active I always get the same pattern playing (the single note in this case)

  • blueveekblueveek

    @cfour said:
    Thanks Xor for the comment. That is exactly what I did, but could not get any response from Atom. I tried the 3 CCs at once (CC0, CC1, CC2), but that did not work:
    I recorded my screen, and as you can see the pattern that is playing is always the same. To make it more obvious I placed 3 patterns, one triggers a chord, the other a scale, the last one a single note. No matter what CC is active I always get the same pattern playing (the single note in this case)

    In Atom, set the switch source to CC, not PC.

  • cfourcfour

    Sorry for that blueveek, I did the recording in a hurry. The behavior is the same if I have Atom set to CC.
    I can record that in a bit if it helps, but I get the same result.

  • cfourcfour

    Oh I got it to work! Nevermind!

  • cfourcfour
    edited April 2021

    Oh, false alarm, I thought it was switching patterns but it was not, it just happened to start from a different pattern. I need to stop multitasking, but I believe it is not working. Only one pattern is blinking but the other ones never change. I can upload the recording in a bit as I said

  • wimwim
    edited April 2021

    @cfour said:
    Oh, false alarm, I thought it was switching patterns but it was not, it just happened to start from a different pattern. I need to stop multitasking, but I believe it is not working. Only one pattern is blinking but the other ones never change. I can upload the recording in a bit as I said

    The switch channel is set to 16 in Atom. What channel is StepBud set to send on? Are you sure it matches?

  • wimwim

    Also, I think you only need send one CC for each pattern change. You don't really need all those steps all set to the same value. You should be able to set up a slow sequence in Step Bud with just one CC per change and see the whole song laid out in a more compact form.

  • cfourcfour

    Hi wim, the number does match, at least in this new video (if I am understanding this correctly, which maybe is not the case!)

  • blueveekblueveek

    @cfour said:
    Hi wim, the number does match, at least in this new video (if I am understanding this correctly, which maybe is not the case!)

    Does stepbud emit the right CC values? Can you look at the output with a MIDI monitor?

  • cfourcfour

    This is starting to fly over my head :#
    Does this help?

  • cfourcfour

    video version

  • wimwim
    edited April 2021

    I've not been able to make it work with StepBud and CC's yet, but there are a couple of things:

    1. You need to turn off sending Portamento in StepBud. StepBud is sending cc 5 (portamento) on every step. That will definitely mess things up. For safety I'd turn off Modulation and Pitch Bend as well.
    2. As I mentioned before, StepBud doesn't need to send repeated CC's for the duration that you want to play that pattern. the CC is a switch, not like a note being held down. You'll have much longer sequences than you need and probably confuse something somewhere set up this way. It's like telling someone to do something 8 times in a row when they started doing it the first time you told them.
    3. StepBud is sending all CC's on each step. So, if you have CC 0=127, CC 1=0, CC 2=0, it's not just sending CC 0 on that step, it's sending all three. I'm guessing that is what's messing this up.

    TBH, I don't see how using CC's with StepBud to do this is a good idea. It would be much easier with Notes or Velocity, using one long step for each change. If you need changes more than the maximum step length of two measures, then follow with other steps that are disabled. Anyway, that's how I'd do it.

  • wimwim

    This is all you need for a four-pattern sequence using notes. Step rate is set to 2/1 (two bars), so this is an 8-bar sequence of four patterns:

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