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spotify = money for military technology ?
is it ethical to publish and listen to music on spotify after daniel ek (spotify co-founder) invests money in military technology ?
i just have read this article in german :
https://heise.de/news/Startup-Helsing-Spotify-Mitgruender-investiert-100-Millionen-in-Militaer-KI-6262541.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.atom.beitrag.beitrag
Comments
here is an article in english
https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/09/daniel-eks-fund-puts-e100m-into-defence-startup-helsing-ai-to-support-democracies/?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmRlLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHH_ocXcuyXP6HjWd6lIEJeiRED_5gdgq8B-LGWiJ6YkOnpOehD8AeWtr988v2Ai3kSjFLcCW_Ms8VDbH8c5QoD_32_h9BEzIsTDdB-PyTKpHXuojGeKcokVnm4NCkgmMlqHhkARlhOWqgCY2Gt5Uph5CLCXg0NKiNBtxuAeF0LX&_guc_consent_skip=1636529907
Yes. Next question.
(Do you have a pension? Does anyone you care about? Have you checked the ethical stance of all the investments they have made? If not, why not? Do you pay taxes in a country which has a military? How do you think they get the cash to exist and be equipped? Do you have a mobile phone? You obviously have an iPad. Where do you think the rare earths in them come from, and under what conditions were the devices produced? Have you ever used PayPal? (Peter Thiel: now *there’s a charmer). Are you now or have you ever been a person who has eaten food not produced in your country? Preferably, by you, on your own property? Have you ever taken a plane ride? Have you eaten anything containing palm oil? Or soya? Have you ever eaten dairy, or meat? Have you added to the world population of humans by breeding? Have you used single use plastics? Do you ever drive or get driven in a diesel or petrol car? Do you use clothes made of synthetics? Or cheap cotton? Or leather? Have you ever enjoyed an open fire or a wood burner?… etcetera.)
What are your thoughts, @TomNoise? I have money where it makes more money. Once I have enough then I'll start choosing to invest in places that don't.
Spotify isn’t ethical to begin with, let alone behind the scenes...
An excellent question to ask on a forum that's dedicated to making music on devices made in China. 🤷
@Svetlovska That nails the angst that constantly gnaws at my serenity and darkens every transaction I make. Ah to roam the savannas with my clan like I did many millennia ago… With simple drums, whistles, flutes and voices.
This is absolutely true and so beautifully put, but it also feels like a bit of a dodge. If a person can’t be 100 percent pure, they forfeit the right to call out any injustice or societal problem? Of course, no person is free of these contradictions.
Does it help to not eat red meat personally? Maybe not much. But in the aggregate — if there is a mass shift in red meat consumption, brought on initially by those derided as hippies or fools or SJW’s, which then expands into a common regard that the industrial production of cattle is devastating to the planet — is that not something?
Although I would agree that there are far more pressing problems with spotify than it’s investment portfolio.
…spears, arrows, clubs, uzi sub machine guns…
Behold, the addiction of pathological consumerism:
https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/pathological-consumption-has-become-so-normalised-that-we-scarcely-notice-it/
I recorded Peter Thiel once, for a video with Eric Metaxas. Ann Coulter was in the audience. Interesting gig, I didn’t know who Peter Thiel was until after the shoot was over. The social and political scene there wasn’t one I’d choose to be a part of, but I was there to record audio. I don’t remember much of what they talked about. But Peter Thiel did have several security personnel with him and they were very serious about their jobs.
You have my deepest sympathy for being in the presence of those two.
My point of course is that we are all compromised simply by being humans in developed societies shortly before the Fall Of Man in global climate Armegeddon…
By all means, take a stand where you can, make changes in your own life, champion causes you believe in.
But so much of the Whataboutery and virtue signalling on social media strikes me as nothing more than performative bloviation, and more than a little like pointing at the old woman in the village and shouting ‘witch’ in the hope of whipping up a mob to alleviate the boredom of Sunday afternoon in a mid 17th century New England town.
I have a long, long list of more egregious sins by those in public life to address before I can get exercised about the Spotify guy’s investment strategy.
Mind you, if we were to consider the ‘royalties’ paid by his invention, he definitely moves a few places up the sh*tlist…
@AudioGus : don’t worry, your chance will come 10-20 years from now. Providing you can swim, that is. Who knew that Kevin Costner was
going to get proved right all along?
classic, loved that flick back in the day.
This show was great too about flooded earth...
Looks like it will be an adorable romp.
ok, some people make it very easy for themselves here.
bending arguments and drawing oblique comparisons to perfection 😂
it is one thing when i consume products.
but if MY music is sold on spotify and i thereby have a (vanishingly small) part in these investments of daniel ek, which i didn't know before, it doesn't feel good to me.
that's why i think it's a bit of a shame that we obviously can't talk and think about this topic together here without reading absurd comparisons like witch hunts.
@TomNoise : I have thought about it. I have talked about it. Do be sure to keep me posted about how your principled stance against Spotify works out. Maybe I can use it to take Amazon down.
That seems rather ungenerous.
Most of the social progress that has ever been made surely seemed naive initially. I personally didn't help end South African apartheid, but I was certainly part of a social movement that pushed divestment in the regime. I didn't understand the history of the Boer war, I didn't remotely grasp the bigotry among ethnic castes of the nation. And I no doubt was callow and laughable as my friends and I assembled before the quad of my private university to demand it DIVEST NOW! (How ridiculous I must have been! How absurd!)
But it worked.
I'd say that the fact that artists get paid shit for Spotify streams is ample ethical reason not to use the service, regardless of what their founder is investing in.
Anti-Apartheid: certainly, cause worth organising and fighting for. On the streets.
As a callow teenager I was beaten up and robbed by skinheads for wearing an anti apartheid badge on the way back from a Rock Against Racism gig.
Later, as a young , then gay man, I was queer bashed for holding hands with my boyfriend, again coming back from a gig. (Maybe I should have stopped going to gigs…]
Most recently, as a trans woman, during my transition, a few years ago, I was assaulted by three drunk men in broad daylight in Brighton, supposed LGBT friendly capital of the UK. Though progress of a sort, I suppose… I was coming back from a supermarket, not a gig…
…So yeah. Organise, proselytise, fight for the things that matter to you. But for real. In the real world . With your life, if necessary, and you really do feel strongly enough about it.
Anti Spotify? When a global climate calamity is literally threatening the future of human kind on this planet, within the next century? What’s the phrase young people like to use now? Oh yes: check your privilege.
Meh.
Boycott Spotify personally? By all means, if it makes you feel better. But recall the OP was inviting us here to a ‘debate’, not about the ethics of Spotify’s abuse of royalties, (which might have had some salience to a forum such as this) but to the personal investment decision of a founder. Except the terms of the ‘debate’ were ‘here’s a bad thing a person did, don’t you agree with me it’s bad?’
It seems fashionable now to invite pile-ons of people or positions you don’t agree with. These aren’t ‘debates’ they are invites to virtual lynchings, and, being virtual, are (thankfully) virtually worthless.
As a trans person I disagree with the positions taken by JK Rowling and latterly, Kathleen Stock at my old alma mater, The University Of Sussex; but I would never wish either of those women to face ‘cancellation’ or opprobrium for expressing their views, no matter how much I personally disagree with them. I find this general trend towards perfomative, coercive public shaming a manifestation itself of the kind of rising intolerance to difference of all kinds that has got me thumped at least three times in my life so far. I instinctively get suspicious when I am invited by anyone to join a mob.
Besides: unless you actually do something about it… Or the climate crisis. Or the rise of the Right across Europe. Or the maltreatment of refugees worldwide. Or Syria. Or Israel. Or the Rohingya. Or the Uhygurs. Who, I dunno, might have been coerced into making elements of tablet computers for Westerners in forced labour camps (but that’s ok, because ‘…it is one thing when I consume products’ , which makes it fine, apparently) Or the fates of other indigenous people in… Brazil/America/Australia... Or any other damn bad thing in this wicked, wicked world -
Isn’t it?
I definitely agree that a lot of "cancellation" is very reactionary, without creating any discussion to communicate why one group finds another group's actions problematic.
I can understand why individuals want to "cut out" those who they find abusive (for example, an abusive partner or parent), but I don't think that logic should be applied to (most) groups like it is often done. Living in New England in the USA I had many conversations trying to explain to people why someone who voted for Trump isn't inherently evil (even though I find the man a disgusting narcissist). That sort of absolutist logic is madness, and stops people from connecting on commonalities that most people share (wanting better healthcare, less corruption in government, etc).
That being said, I don't think it's the same as what's going on here. The proliferation of contractor military and commodified military technology throughout the globe has been horrible for marginalized communities and any group trying to create a government not beholden to the major global powers. I think it is completely reasonable to criticize someone for investing in these things (especially someone with the kind of wealth and power as Daniel Ek). If anything, the critique of militarization has been forgotten in this hyper-divided era and I think we need more of it.
Edit: I don't think cancelling spotify really helps if what you care about is how Daniel Ek spends his money. Any real change will come from more from talking to one another like this, as opposed to individual consumer decisions. I definitely don't think the response to this should be shaming spotify users, that's just more pointless posturing.
Maybe its to help recruiting?
I wouldnt want to be stuck in a HumVee somewhere remote and not have any tunes to listen to even if they were ad supported.
It isn’t of great consequence actually.
It’s his money he can do
what he wants with it.
My musician friends are all
a bit miffed considering the
amount of effort they’ve put in
but it is what it is.
In this day and age who
needs ethics and principles.
They don’t get you very far.
To be fair to the op, he only asked for opinions. He didn’t even initially declare his own viewpoint, let alone invite others to share it.
@Svetlovska said, “Though progress of a sort, I suppose… I was coming back from a supermarket, not a gig…”
I’m glad you still have some semblance of humor after your ordeals.
Synchronicity, or something. Went from this forum and found Hainbach’s latest vid on YouTube. Now here’s a real-world, principled engagement with an actual immediate wrong that is not without actual risk to the musician involved, and done with elegance and wit, drawing a direct correspondence between his art and the issue at hand. Gotta love the guy:
It’s the system that’s £@&;£, where it’s leading us, everyone can see, if they care-dare to look.
Who is Hainbach and
does anyone really care?
Thousands of musicians upon learning
that their hard earned efforts are being
put to a use they do not believe in at all
and most probably fight against the
Far Right on any given day through
deeds and actions and Hainbach
makes speech for 11 minutes and we’re supposed to fall all over it???
Ludicrous.
Spotify pays musicians a pittance.
Anyway stay with Hainbach
whomever they are I’m sure
the Far Right are very concerned.
@Gravitas : okay, Peter Cooks’ famous quote about “those wonderful Berlin cabarets which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the outbreak of the Second World War.”
But: did you watch the piece? Hainbach made public art directly calling out anti-art right wing voices in a city which has recently seen right wing murders and a crackdown on culture. That strikes me as much as any one musician might reasonably do directly through the medium of their art, and a whole heck of a lot more than unsubscribing from a streaming account.
This is not an either/or. You can both oppose Spotify’s iniquity in your personal consumer choices, call out bad behaviour etcetera. Of course, any of us can, and should. But: there is a scale of sins.
Directly murdering people and attempting to silence voices of opposition to oppression will always demand a bit more of a response than clicktivism, for those brave enough to voice it. At least in my book.
Your mileage may vary.