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spotify = money for military technology ?

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Comments

  • @Svetlovska said:
    @Gravitas : okay, Peter Cooks’ famous quote about “those wonderful Berlin cabarets which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the outbreak of the Second World War.”

    But: did you watch the piece? Hainbach made public art directly calling out anti-art right wing voices in a city which has recently seen right wing murders and a crackdown on culture. That strikes me as much as any one musician might reasonably do directly through the medium of their art, and a whole heck of a lot more than unsubscribing from a streaming account.

    There is a scale of sins.

    Directly murdering people and attempting to silence voices of opposition to oppression will always demand a bit more of a response than clicktivism, for those brave enough to voice it. At least in my book.

    Your mileage may vary.

    The musicians I’m referring have also suffered at the hands of the Far Right
    and also need to feed their families.

    Your mileage may vary.

  • Okay. I’ll await the evidence of your effective opposition. That is: something that goes beyond gesture.

  • @Svetlovska said:
    Okay. I’ll await the evidence of your effective opposition. That is: something that goes beyond gesture.

    I’m not gesturing.

    Personally speaking in real life
    I’m associated with Antifascist
    groups here in London.
    Have been for over thirty years.
    I have friends who actually fought
    against Apartheid, you mentioned that earlier?
    Some of them left South Africa and
    had to live in exile because they feared assassination.
    Friends who are using their music
    to highlight the plight of the poor and oppressed in no less than five continents.
    Do you know what’s happening in Brazil?
    Of course you do.
    Friends who are fighting for equality
    and have had to physically fight
    members of the Far Right and racist groups.
    Friends who are fighting for
    Women’s and LGBT+ rights.
    Marches against Brexit and
    for the People’s vote.
    I could go on but I don’t want to bore you.
    This is the tip of the iceberg.

    You know real world stuff.

    All musicians and Artists.
    Many of them with their music on Spotify.
    Quite a few of them are notable world class musicians and artists.

    Why can I say this?

    Because we fought and are still
    having to fight this stuff and so do many other Artists and musicians who actually have ethics and are not fawning over a poster pinup.

    Who coincidentally also have to feed their families.

    Standing up for this stuff has taken me to four different continents and 18 different countries.

    My mileage is consistent.

    We don’t click.

    We act.

    As to provided proof for you?

    I don’t need to.

    My actions in the real world
    speak for themselves.

    I’m not asking you to know me.
    I don’t care about that.

    I care about my fellow musicians
    who’ve been taken for a ride.

  • edited November 2021

    @Gravitas said:
    Standing up for this stuff has taken me to four different continents and 18 different countries.

    My mileage is consistent.

    We don’t click.

    We act.

    As to provided proof for you?

    I don’t need to.

    My actions in the real world
    speak for themselves.

    I’m not asking you to know me.
    I don’t care about that.

    I care about my fellow musicians
    who’ve been taken for a ride.

    What was that about not gesturing...? You sound like Batman, Mother Teresa and Che Guevara rolled in to one person :smiley:

  • @Simon said:

    @Gravitas said:
    Standing up for this stuff has taken me to four different continents and 18 different countries.

    My mileage is consistent.

    We don’t click.

    We act.

    As to provided proof for you?

    I don’t need to.

    My actions in the real world
    speak for themselves.

    I’m not asking you to know me.
    I don’t care about that.

    I care about my fellow musicians
    who’ve been taken for a ride.

    What was that about not gesturing...? You sound like Batman, Mother Thresa and Che Guevara rolled in to one person :smiley:

    I’m trying to retire. 🙏🏾🙂

  • @Gravitas said:
    I’m trying to retire. 🙏🏾🙂

    Good idea. A saint can only do so much :smile:

  • @Simon said:

    @Gravitas said:
    I’m trying to retire. 🙏🏾🙂

    Good idea. A saint can only do so much :smile:

    Agreed. 🙂

    Still, when the call comes one must
    stand up for what one believes
    no matter what.

  • edited November 2021

    @Gravitas said:

    Standing up for this stuff has taken me to four different continents and 18 different countries.

    My mileage is consistent.

    Your carbon footprint, on the other hand… ;)

  • edited November 2021

    On a mountaintop, high above a large city, stands the headquarters of a man devoted to the cause of freedom and justice; a war hero who has never stopped fighting against his country's enemies; a private citizen who is dedicating his life to the struggle against evil men everywhere. Sainthood awaits.

  • @Svetlovska said:
    @Gravitas said:

    Standing up for this stuff has taken me to four different continents and 18 different countries.

    My mileage is consistent.

    Your carbon footprint, on the other hand… ;)

    LOL.

  • edited November 2021

    @Svetlovska said:
    @Gravitas said:

    Standing up for this stuff has taken me to four different continents and 18 different countries.

    My mileage is consistent.

    Your carbon footprint, on the other hand… ;)

    There is that.

    Still, my conscience is clear.

    I’ve done enough including
    being on this forum.

    Can’t see the point of being
    on this forum anymore.

    Ciao.

  • edited November 2021

    So much for robust debate, I guess.

  • @Gravitas said:
    Can’t see the point of being
    on this forum anymore.

    What has changed to make you decide this?

  • @Svetlovska said:
    So much for robust debate, I guess.

    He might just be having a bad day. Hopefully he will stick around.

  • @Simon said:

    @Svetlovska said:
    So much for robust debate, I guess.

    He might just be having a bad day. Hopefully he will stick around.

    Nope.

    I’m having a really good day actually.
    The weather is nice for this time of year.

    I’ve been contemplating it for awhile.

    This discussion reminded me why.

    I shall be around until Christmas
    and then I’m deleting my account.
    I am going to leave the content
    for what it’s worth.

    I’ve still got a couple of students
    so I’m honouring that purpose.

    Apologies for interrupting
    your robust discussion.
    I see it’s going very well.

    Have a nice day.

  • edited November 2021

    I hope so. The irony is that I don’t disagree with the objections to Spotify, (or indeed, the distaste for Mr Ek’s investment strategy) just question what effective action might look like… Greta Thunberg helped put the climate crisis on the political agenda, but she didn’t do it by rage quitting Facebook.

    Here in the UK there is talk about the government introducing some kind of more equitable requirement on royalty share for streaming companies, so perhaps pressuring your local elected representatives might carry some weight. More than a rage quit from the company, anyway.

    And I have my own scars from previous ‘culture wars’ fought out on the streets - I’m old enough to remember when Gay Pride marches were protests, not shopping opportunities, you got boo’ed and heckled by passers by, not cheered, and you had to be careful getting to and from the March and do it in groups, so you didn’t get jumped by skinheads.

    War stories. I could tell a few, from my own Fortress of Solitude, high above the slumbering city.

    But hey.

  • So, the lesson that we have learned here is that we should never try, because others will always oppose whatever you do?

  • @Svetlovska said:
    I hope so. The irony is that I don’t disagree with the objections to Spotify, (or indeed, the distaste for Mr Ek’s investment strategy) just question what effective action might look like… Greta Thunberg helped put the climate crisis on the political agenda, but she didn’t do it by rage quitting Facebook.

    Constructive discussion has a point.

    I’m not angry.
    That’s your imposition.

    Here in the UK there is talk about the government introducing some kind of more equitable requirement on royalty share for streaming companies, so perhaps pressuring your local elected representatives might carry some weight. More than a rage quit from the company, anyway.

    The U.K government simply wants to make money it won’t assist musicians at all.
    It will indeed hinder an already devastated industry.

    And I have my own scars from previous ‘culture wars’ fought out on the streets - I’m old enough to remember when Gay Pride marches were protests, not shopping opportunities, you got boo’ed and heckled by passers by, not cheered, and you had to be careful getting to and from the March and do it in groups, so you didn’t get jumped by skinheads.

    I remember those days very well.
    I’m sure you remember that joint on Old Compton street that got bombed.
    The Admiral??

    @jolico said:
    So, the lesson that we have learned here is that we should never try, because others will always oppose whatever you do?

    Yup.

  • edited November 2021

    @jolico: nope. Lesson #1, if I may be so bold to refer to @Gravitas, is you don’t rage quit the debate the first time somebody says something you don’t like. At least, not if you want to make your case seriously.

    Lesson #2, as I already said, several times, above, is you make what individual ethical stands you feel you must, and encourage and mobilise as many others as you can to rally to your cause, and pull on all available levers of lawful and if necessary, unlawful protest and commercial pressure to achieve your ends. The women of Greenham Common set an example there, and the economic boycotts of apartheid South Africa may have had some, at least symbolic, effect, too.

    But you know what stands out about those examples? They were actually real things being really done in the real world, in the former case of the Greenham Women, at considerable physical, legal, and mental risk to the participants involved. You might also consider the role of Extinction Rebellion protesters at this point. Or, incidentally, Hainbach’s piece.

    My initial objection to the OPs proposal was that it was a (fairly typical) social media passive aggressive invitation to an online gesture of collective disapproval of A Bad Thing. (Not, note, anything about Spotify’s iniquitous royalty system there, either, as the ‘debate’ subsequently turned to). In other words, an invitation to a virtual protest to a virtual thing, destined to have virtually no impact.

    It irritated me in it’s superficiality. Given that any activist-inclined person out there only has so many hours in the day, and only so many causes they can invest time and energy getting behind, it seemed to me to be waaaaaay down the sh*tlist, and also, as I said, more than a little virtue-signally. My perception, I may be wrong. I often am. But that was what got me started.

    And now we are where we are.

  • @Gravitas said:

    @jolico said:
    So, the lesson that we have learned here is that we should never try, because others will always oppose whatever you do?

    Yup.

    You boys need to read some history books.

    All kinds of reform (good and bad) has happened over the last 100 or so years due to efforts by people like trade unions, gay rights supporters, anti war protesters, women's lib, gun rights supporters, pro/anti abortion or whoever.

    Applying pressure to governments, business or other groups can be difficult but it is the proven way to start change*.

    • not recomnended for those living in a communist country.
  • It’s said that you can effectively change evil government policies using Drambo, if you know what you’re doing…

  • @Svetlovska said:
    @jolico: nope. Lesson #1, if I may be so bold to refer to @Gravitas, is you don’t rage quit the debate the first time somebody says something you don’t like. At least, not if you want to make your case seriously.

    Lesson #2, as I already said, several times, above, is you make what individual ethical stands you feel you must, and encourage and mobilise as many others as you can to rally to your cause, and pull on all available levers of lawful and if necessary, unlawful protest and commercial pressure to achieve your ends. The women of Greenham Common set an example there, and the economic boycotts of apartheid South Africa may have had some, at least symbolic, effect, too.

    But you know what stands out about those examples? They were actually real things being really done in the real world, in the former case of the Greenham Women, at considerable physical, legal, and mental risk to the participants involved. You might also consider the role of Extinction Rebellion protesters at this point. Or, incidentally, Hainbach’s piece.

    My initial objection to the OPs proposal was that it was a (fairly typical) social media passive aggressive invitation to an online gesture of collective disapproval of A Bad Thing. (Not, note, anything about Spotify’s iniquitous royalty system there, either, as the ‘debate’ subsequently turned to). In other words, an invitation to a virtual protest to a virtual thing, destined to have virtually no impact.

    It irritated me in it’s superficiality. Given that any activist-inclined person out there only has so many hours in the day, and only so many causes they can invest time and energy getting behind, it seemed to me to be waaaaaay down the sh*tlist, and also, as I said, more than a little virtue-signally. My perception, I may be wrong. I often am. But that was what got me started.

    And now we are where we are.

    Nope.

    Had a parents evening.

    Are you really that patronising?

    Wow.

    Proves my point.

    Carry on lecturing doing nothing.

  • @Gravitas said:

    I’ll be sorry to see you go. Your contributions have always been valuable and well considered.

  • @TheOriginalPaulB said:
    @Gravitas said:

    I’ll be sorry to see you go. Your contributions have always been valuable and well considered.

    I may change my mind but
    I’m tired of online debates that circle
    round and round and achieve nothing.
    Admittedly I stepped into this one
    so I blame myself.
    I have both FB and this forum as my
    only online social media platforms.
    I almost shut down my FB account
    last year and was requested to remain
    by my FB family which I did.
    I’ve invested a lot of time into both.
    FB more so but I need to invest time
    into me.
    I’ve deleted or am not using any of my others.
    As mentioned thirty years is a long time
    championing causes.
    I feel sorry for Greta Thunberg and
    the rest as they’re only just starting out.
    At least when I started out we didn’t have the internet and “keyboard warriors”,
    sniping at everything we do because
    they didn’t think to try enabling the future
    for themselves.
    It’s good to stand up for something but
    if you don’t then don’t hinder or belittle
    the ones who do.
    Keyboard warrior skills
    could be put to better use.
    For instance if I had had hacker skills I would’ve divested the CEO of Spotify
    of said €100 million and placed the euros elsewhere where it would’ve been much more appreciated and useful.
    The same with many other CEO’s that
    have stupidly more money than their users.
    Amazon comes to mind.
    But I don’t have said skills.
    The “you” isn’t singular to be clear.
    There are good people on the form
    otherwise I wouldn’t have stayed for
    so long but they really should speak up more.
    The iOS platform would be
    more welcoming for it.
    Now back to the debate.
    Where were we.
    Ah yes, €100 million and penniless musicians.
    Is it still the same in regards to royalties?
    $0.0045 per play?

  • @purpan2 said:
    It’s said that you can effectively change evil government policies using Drambo, if you know what you’re doing…

    We have a winner! :smile:

  • @Gravitas said:
    It’s good to stand up for something but
    if you don’t then don’t hinder or belittle
    the ones who do.

    Like Hainbach...?

  • @Simon said:

    @Gravitas said:
    It’s good to stand up for something but
    if you don’t then don’t hinder or belittle
    the ones who do.

    Like Hainbach...?

    I genuinely don’t know Hainbach
    and do you know something?
    Sometimes it’s okay not to know.
    He’s against the Far Right?
    That’s all good in my book.

  • edited November 2021

    Keyboard warrior, huh? Try walking a mile in my shoes (heels, actually - you might find it tricky), mid transition, post surgery, feeling vulnerable, physically fragile, stitched, sore, then getting assaulted by three drunk men just for offending their sense of who is allowed to exist in the world.

    Then do it the next day. And the next. And all the days after. With your head held high.

    Then tell me how hard it is to boycott Spotify. Or to quit this forum.

    You don’t have a monopoly on what constitutes living authentically, or fighting the power.

    In the real world.

  • @Sawiton said:
    @Svetlovska That nails the angst that constantly gnaws at my serenity and darkens every transaction I make. Ah to roam the savannas with my clan like I did many millennia ago… With simple drums, whistles, flutes and voices.

    Amen

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