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Comments
I have nothing against spicier topics or ignoring some... but there seems to be a double standard... one gets banned the other gets defended... reading through the thread shit was thrown around by both of them... neither managed to be the ‘grown up’
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Had to double check I wasn’t banned. It’s rare that there’s a banhammer, and it doesn’t play wack-a-mole on my account.
I'm not really sure that getting banned is that much of a big deal. Very easy to sign up with a new account. If you've pissed enough people off often enough to get banned, the chance to start again with a fresh slate is perhaps a good thing. That said, there are certain people whose writing voices and thought patterns, media references etc are pretty much instantly recognizable, which I'm sure is the case here
What must being banned and then sneaking back in with a new account do to a persons self esteem and self worth? What will they turn out to be like when they grow up? I mean really - a modicum of introspection please. Take a hint and go elsewhere.
Prime Minister, maybe, or President?
I wouldn’t normally get involved on here with discussions other than those that are pure music-related topics as that is surely the main purpose of this forum, and that’s why I’m here.
Although, I do agree it can be good and interesting to get to know members on here a bit more by way of off topic subjects, but it really has to be done very carefully, considerately and politely for it to work and be productive, especially when straying into the minefield of political, social and economic subjects. Tread carefully.
This is just my observation FWIW: I’ve personally never before seen a pattern of so many threads on here spiralling quickly out of control on wild tangents with arguments and disagreements, even suddenly turning nasty in innocuous music-related topics, as I have seen occuring in the last year or two. It is very noticeable, troubling and disappointing.
Unfortunately, I believe it’s a sign of the current times. There’s a bigger picture behind it. A lot of political, social and economic turmoil and upheaval on a global scale happening over the last year or two that is affecting and impacting everyone to varying negative degrees. I’d call it a ‘disturbance in the force’ or ‘bad vibes in the air’. And I see it manifesting itself as increased intolerance, impatience and bitterness everywhere towards each other. People are more stressed about a lot of things they were not stressed about before or even aware of until as of lately. Things are rapidly changing on a global scale. Growing pains. A lot more division than I have ever witnessed before on many subjects. I don’t know if it’s all heading for the greater good or greater evil. But if we don’t stick together, reach compromises or exercise some restraint, compassion and thoughtfulness towards each other, it won’t end well for us.
The things I see manifesting themselves in discussions here are just a tiny part but a clear example and reflection of the way things are situated right now everywhere in the world. People seem quicker to ‘fly off the handle’ these days. A lot of outside forces causing basically good and humane people to forget their self-control and diplomacy, and exhibit short tempers and intolerance instead.
Division is our biggest enemy. But diplomacy, respect, consideration and self-moderation are still available choices to us.
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There ought to be a way to positively flag posts - if there were I would use it for @Spidericemidas previous post.
Well said, Spidericemidas...
I've been lurking in this thread, and I've wanted to leave a comment but just couldn't figure out what to say. Well you've put to words my exact thoughts.
My memory may be fuzzy, but I recall we had a button like this before. It's probably lost in the box with cables and adapters
+100 👏 👏
@Spidericemidas this development is worrying me a lot. I also notice that people are much more polarized nowadays. It’s becoming an „us or them“ very quickly. Oftentimes people even stop listening to each other and start yelling almost instantly. One wrong word and you get cancelled. Tough time for compromises but making compromises is essential in a democracy. I think it has a lot to do with social media. It fuels the internet bubbles and fake news. If someone would have told me ten years ago about QAnon or flat-earthers, I wouldn’t believe it. Instead of lifting democracy and freedom of speech to a new level, the internet seems to rather foster fragmentation and conspiracy theories.
I can wholeheartedly recommend the excellent podcast mini series from the BBC „The coming storm“ that dives deeper into the background of QAnon. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001324r
I fear these are symptoms not the cause, the true cause drives people to the extremes and is a world wide phenomena, not localised.
I haven’t seen a general polarization. I think what we have seen is extremists (predominantly on the right) feeling comfortable sharing thoughts in mainstream communities where several years ago they would not have felt comfortable…because in recent years their beliefs have been increasingly normalized.
Those that vocally try to argue against extremists are than labeled extremist or intolerant for arguing against them.
If people have the time or interest, i think this is well worth a read. It was written in 2018 so is pre-covid - they could probably do with writing an updated version if they haven't done so yet, but it's fascinating and insightful nevertheless.
https://link.medium.com/Xia7ZVcmHrb
To be honest, that piece doesn’t strike me as an accurate description of what is going on. It strikes me as a facile attempt at seeming deep and underplays (by not even mentioning) that the pro-authoritarian, anti-democratic movements have actual teeth and are politically consequential.
A few key points etc
The tribes and their goals (actual article goes into much more detail):
SJAs (Social Justice Activists) End social oppression
Black Lives Matter Justice for racialized people
MeToo End sexual harassment
Gender-Critical Feminists End patriarchy
Modern Neo-Marxists Destruction of false consciousness
Antifa End fascism
Occupy Remove the 1% from power
Dirtbag Left Overtake and revitalize the left
DSA (Democratic Socialists of America) A democratically elected socialist state
Establishment Left Achieve social and economic equality
Optimists """Enlightenment Now"" (e.g. continual progress through reason and science)"
New Atheists Objective truth in a post-religious world
Street Epistemologists Spread the correct epistemic method amongst the populace
Rationalist Diaspora Overcoming bias
Post-Rationalists Refactoring perception
Integral Theorists """Waking Up, Growing Up, Cleaning Up"""
Sorters Aim towards the highest good
Intellectual Dark Web Considered free speech
Benedictines Strategetic segregation from mainstream culture to rebuild Christendom
Christian Right A Christian nation
Establishment Right Uphold traditional values in a free market society
Tea Party Reduce national debt and government spending.
Trumpists """Make America Great Again"""
InfoWarriors Exposing and overthrowing the globalist world order
QAnoners """The Great Awakening"""
Alt-Lite Unapologetic free speech
Alt-Right White Ethno-State
Modern Neo-Nazis 14/88
Neoreactionaries Restoration
MRA (Mens Right Advocates) Social and legal equality for men
Manosphere "A ""Return of Kings"" (e.g. a return of patriarchy and traditional sex roles)"
MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) Societal and relational disengagement
Incels "Enforced monogamy through a ""Beta Uprising"""
The Six Crises
What conditions gave rise to the contentious environment of memetic tribes?
To summarize the six crises:
The meaning crisis weakened our collective understanding of what ought to be.
The reality crisis fractured our collective understanding of what is.
The belonging crisis took away a genuine feeling of community.
The proximity crisis removed distance from conflicting views.
The sobriety crisis reduced our agency and turned us into addicts.
The warfare crisis transformed our minds into weapons for hidden wars in plain sight.
Four main events initiated the leap to what we call Culture War 2.0
Event One: The End of Occupy (November 15, 2011)
Event Two: Obergefell v. Hodges (June 26, 2015)
Event Three: Caitlyn Jenner (July 1, 2015)
Event Four: The Chaos President (November 8, 2016)
The article finishes with some speculative proposals for how to deal with the meaning crisis. These are roughly:
a commitment to good faith dialogue, the principle of charity, and intellectual humility. In Sensemaking Debates, participants debate for understanding and exploration, as opposed to 'sporting debates' which are based on the idea of winning at all costs.
gaining the tools to think critically and avoid being drawn into convenient and prepackaged worldviews. Philosophy could be a guard against the pressure to join an existing memetic tribe. “If we thought more for ourselves we would have very many more bad books and very many more good ones.”
workshops for depolarization
developing “human skills” which invoke the framework of authentic relationships with other humans. It has the potential to lend itself to a non-instrumental view of relationships.
A new role might be required in the Culture War, that of the Memetic Mediator. This mediator would be a pan-tribalist participant who has the ability to communicate across tribes in a way that seems fair and reasonable to each tribe.
Venkatesh Rao has introduced the term “grey pilling,” which he views as the third pill in the blue-red pill dichotomy. A grey pill, according to Venkatesh, is the process of “relearning the value of questioning and doubt after you’ve been seduced by answers and certainties. This would be the return of Socrates, the original gadfly, who grey-pilled anyone who dared to converse with him.
@espiegel123 I'm assuming you had already read and digested the article prior to me posting it?
I agree with you, it’s disturbing how many people who I’ve know in “real life” whose views I assumed were not politically aligned with my own but seemed all the same however to be reasonable decent people have outed themselves on social media by either supporting or posting racist / bigoted ideas or groups.
Yeah, I feel like the author of that medium piece would’ve saved a lot of words by just typing “identity politics” or what not and I would’ve been out of there faster than the time I actually spent reading a couple paragraphs before I couldn’t take it anymore
This is really where it’s at.
Like, I’m reminded of this cartoon I saved awhile back, don’t remember the source now
I’d disagree, the support given to one side in the recent celebrity trial, by so called progressive MSM has been absurd, truth shouldn’t curve left or right, only right or wrong.
Ah, but whose truth?
Good point, that’s why you have to dig deeper
Thankfully that’s not too common here, but it definitely occurs from time to time.
Not quite sure why anyone would think to bring something like that here in the first place though - it’s not as if there’s a ton of political discussion in the first place.