IOS 17 - sideloading apps?

0tolerance4silence

I’m sure Apple will find a way to distinguish classy users... maybe in few years even they will start to appreciate the changes... the point is that all players will have a choice.

wim

@EcalusSonda said:

@wim said:

@EcalusSonda said:
I'm sure it will hurt Apple and ultimately their users. Piracy will raise and it will be an utter mess. it will loose its class.. it will transform into a shitty Android type of experience but some people like that.

In don't understand. If people prefer what the App Store has to offer, they'll stick to it just as people stick to Apple devices, though higher priced, for the same reasons. Nobody is forcing anyone to use alternative stores.

The difference is Apple will be forced to up their game. Right now they don't have to. Competition is almost always a good thing.

It will bring Apple a tacky feeling and piracy. That is not what Apple is all about.

Apple should add an OS Level user setting "Allow alternative App Stores: ON/OFF".

0tolerance4silence

• OFF
• Are you sure? Yes/No
• Yes
• Are you really sure? No/Maybe
  ...

Tovokas

Side-loading apps would be a huge boon free developers. I had to abandon the iOS and Google App stores for my free gaming utility (converting it to an HTML5 app) because I just couldn’t keep up with all the constantly changing requirements. If I was selling something, however, things would look very different.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

realdawei

@Tovokas said:
Side-loading apps would be a huge boon free developers. I had to abandon the iOS and Google App stores for my free gaming utility (converting it to an HTML5 app) because I just couldn’t keep up with all the constantly changing requirements. If I was selling something, however, things would look very different.

Which is where this is all going anyway HTML5, PWA WASM for all apps. it shall free the developers from the “evil Apple dominance”

Only catch is they won’t sell jack because no one ever solved online digital payments at scale until the App Store…so let’s go ahead and support the premature dismantling of this delicately balanced success story. It wasn’t going to stand the test of time anyway.

Free instruments and effects for all! (With ads 👀)

wim

@realdawei said:

@Tovokas said:
Side-loading apps would be a huge boon free developers. I had to abandon the iOS and Google App stores for my free gaming utility (converting it to an HTML5 app) because I just couldn’t keep up with all the constantly changing requirements. If I was selling something, however, things would look very different.

Which is where this is all going anyway HTML5, PWA WASM for all apps. it shall free the developers from the “evil Apple dominance”

Only catch is they won’t sell jack because no one ever solved online digital payments at scale until the App Store…so let’s go ahead and support the premature dismantling of this delicately balanced success story. It wasn’t going to stand the test of time anyway.

Free instruments and effects for all! (With ads 👀)

Except that Apple retains firm control over all web protocols on iOS. Even other browsers such as Chrome are forced to use only Apple’s html libraries and are limited to only those Apple decides to support. The EU will have to bust up that “monopoly” as well.

realdawei

@wim said:

@realdawei said:

@Tovokas said:
Side-loading apps would be a huge boon free developers. I had to abandon the iOS and Google App stores for my free gaming utility (converting it to an HTML5 app) because I just couldn’t keep up with all the constantly changing requirements. If I was selling something, however, things would look very different.

Which is where this is all going anyway HTML5, PWA WASM for all apps. it shall free the developers from the “evil Apple dominance”

Only catch is they won’t sell jack because no one ever solved online digital payments at scale until the App Store…so let’s go ahead and support the premature dismantling of this delicately balanced success story. It wasn’t going to stand the test of time anyway.

Free instruments and effects for all! (With ads 👀)

Except that Apple retains firm control over all web protocols on iOS. Even other browsers such as Chrome are forced to use only Apple’s html libraries. The EU will have to bust up that “monopoly” as well.

Oh yes…poor Google. Billion dollar spyware corporation is a victim of Apple Webkit. Let’s call the cops

Gavinski

@A_Fox said:

@brambos said:
Yeah... I'm not overly enthusiastic about this change.

At this point Apple's App Store monopoly has mostly come at a cost for developers, not for consumers. And this measure is going to make it even worse (I expect).

I’m not sure you are entirely correct there.. Apples 30% cut is ultimately paid for by the consumer which is why it falls foul of monopoly laws.
It does affect Devs though as they are having to sell through a monopoly.
I won’t risk my Ipad or Macs contents, nor my personal online account security to run pirate software, I reckon a lot of Apple users feel that way.
If you were selling apps from your own site, I’d buy them from there instead. They aren’t expensive.
They’re excellent, by the way 😉
The resulting competition means Apple will lower its cut, and eventually some Devs will think “I cant be bothered to run an e-store now apples lowered their cut”.

A side thing: I’d love to run some old computer emulators on my Ipad.. open source stuff.

Remember btw that now only big devs pay 30%, smaller devs - the vast majority - pay 15

Gavinski

Actually, might be good for youtubers - could finally perhaps bring back app store affiliate link commissions, which made things a lot more viable for Doug, Jakob and the like until apple took away the commission feature several years ago > @0tolerance4silence said:

Haven’t experienced viruses since Windows XP days about 25 years ago... doesn’t mean there are none but it’s usually down to the users, and I expect users to still have the choice to go with AppStore.
Other than that I think it will be good thing for the platform...
Healthier competition without Apple induced distortion, hopefully ability to install older version of apps and maybe even older OS at some point... imo these things are what keeps some major developers away.
Sure, there will be more rubbish apps too, but just like now, it’ll be down to the user.

Gavinski

@BerlinFx said:

@ehehehe said:

@Samu said:
International sales is a tricky business with different regions, currencies, tax laws etc. and that administration is not 'free'.
Currently that 'administration' is covered by the 'Apple Tax' which might even end up saving a buck or two for the developer compared to hiring own staff and/or consultants to do that.

So for a small developer it's likely more of a hassle to do it on their own than just keep on using the Apple stuff that is already in place.

A small dev needs to sell a lot before they even reach the 30% 'Apple Tax'.

😂😂😂

I think anyone capable of coding an app also would manage to sell it online, it's not exactly rocket science.

To my experience dev doesn’t like marketing and sales 🤔😅😂

I have to agree lol... So few devs are marketing savvy, it makes me want to weep at times.

Gavinski

@BerlinFx said:
As someone state it is not in the spirit of iOS users to buy piracy copy.

I don’t know if for VST on MAC there are so much piracy copy ?

But for iOS music even for a Daw at 50 USD I don’t think that piracy will be the main problem.

See how people ask dev to quickly fix a bug as they can’t do music in their loved apps. Same for videos, photos , design apps.

It's not in the spirit of ios music users to use piracy because until now that has not been possible, unless maybe you jailbroke your phone. But if it became possible to use pirates you can bet your ass that a lot of people using pirates on desktop would start using ios, and many or at least some existing ios musicians would quickly change their scruples about not paying for stuff. Maybe not too many people active on this forum, but a fair few in total nevertheless

wim

^this. I don't think you can take this forum as anything like an accurate representation of "normal" customer attitudes.

NeuM

@wim said:

@realdawei said:
this really is manipulation by larger billion dollar platforms like FB, Epic, Microsoft etc who want to setup their own App Stores on iOS and stick it to Apple. Independent developers are going to get creamed.

Why? Independent developers can still choose to distribute through the App Store if remains advantageous for them to do so. I believe for the vast majority of iOS music app developers, it is when you look at all the hidden costs involved to do it otherwise. I'm not talking about other costs of doing business internationally, not negligible "web store hosting" costs here.

On the positive side, choice is good and competition is good. Think about how shitty the App Store has been for so long. When Apple has competition from better App Stores, they will improve in ways they haven't been motivated to up to now.

On the negative side, if it leads to piracy, many independent developers will exit the game. And if it leads to onerous copy protection many consumers (myself included) will decline to purchase those apps.

Where are these “better app stores”?

wim

@NeuM said:

@wim said:

@realdawei said:
this really is manipulation by larger billion dollar platforms like FB, Epic, Microsoft etc who want to setup their own App Stores on iOS and stick it to Apple. Independent developers are going to get creamed.

Why? Independent developers can still choose to distribute through the App Store if remains advantageous for them to do so. I believe for the vast majority of iOS music app developers, it is when you look at all the hidden costs involved to do it otherwise. I'm not talking about other costs of doing business internationally, not negligible "web store hosting" costs here.

On the positive side, choice is good and competition is good. Think about how shitty the App Store has been for so long. When Apple has competition from better App Stores, they will improve in ways they haven't been motivated to up to now.

On the negative side, if it leads to piracy, many independent developers will exit the game. And if it leads to onerous copy protection many consumers (myself included) will decline to purchase those apps.

Where are these “better app stores”?

I was speaking of the future. I didn't phrase that very clearly.
When it's possible for there to be other app stores I have no doubt whatsoever that better alternatives will emerge. Also little doubt that Apple will up their game when that happens.

brambos

Apple’s current cut is very fair for the service they offer to devs. I don’t believe alternative stores are going to handle global taxes, transactions, distribution and anti-piracy measures for a better rate than today’s App Store.

wim

I totally agree about it being cost-effective.

I was thinking in terms of features, such as allowing better purchased upgrades mechanisms, ability to roll back to previous versions, a decent search engine, improved review process, fewer restrictions, etc.

brambos

@wim said:
I totally agree about it being cost-effective.

I was thinking in terms of features, such as allowing better purchased upgrades mechanisms, ability to roll back to previous versions, a decent search engine, improved review process, fewer restrictions, etc.

Yeah, 100%

I was mostly responding to the thought that the current App Store was bad for consumers because devs will pass on Apple's cut to their customers. But the same will apply to any other storefront service.

None of those services are free, and in the end the consumer will always pay for those. Except a lot of other things may now become worse than they used to be when Apple had full control over the quality of the experience.

ErrkaPetti

@Samu said:
International sales is a tricky business with different regions, currencies, tax laws etc. and that administration is not 'free'.
Currently that 'administration' is covered by the 'Apple Tax' which might even end up saving a buck or two for the developer compared to hiring own staff and/or consultants to do that.

So for a small developer it's likely more of a hassle to do it on their own than just keep on using the Apple stuff that is already in place.

A small dev needs to sell a lot before they even reach the 30% 'Apple Tax'.

Isn’t already an rule in Appstore that says that developers with revenue lower than $100000 pays just 15% to Apple?

[Deleted User]

I agree the quality of experience on iOS will be overall worst. To focus on iOS music you need to focus only on good dev not bad ones or unknown ones only few trusted iOS independent dev or corporate trusted names.

Short list and less and more selective way to buy apps. More like you will do for Destop VST.

For games and utilities do the same to avoid any problems.

wim

@ErrkaPetti said:
Isn’t already an rule in Appstore that says that developers with revenue lower than $100000 pays just 15% to Apple?

Yes, though it’s $1,000,000 per app, not total revenue for a developer, making hitting the 30% bucket very unlikely, at least for music apps.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

Silly question from me : when you buy an IAP inside an App what is the % for Apple or all is for the dev ?

ervin

Considering that noone wants to force customers to buy stuff from outside the Apple app store, is there an actual argument against not letting alternative app stores exist?

"They wouldn't work" is a valid opinion, but it's not an argument against allowing them to try.

[Deleted User]

Everyone will be still free to shop on an other AppStore, Apple is free too to argue as marketing « you can buy iOS apps where you want, but we gagnâtes a safer experience on the Apple AppStore « 

Apple sell the Harware so if you download in an other AppStore Google and you are in a mess with your computer even if you pay an extra support for your IPad , Apple could consider that it is your fault and it is a breach of garantee for Harware. EU law regulation don’t care about garantee on harware. Totally legal as they can check that this iOS app is not a one checked by Apple.

Apple as the right to , for security reason to refuse an app on its Apple AppStore and is other AppStore put this App online no garantee …..

The price for freedom just to say I am free is too high for people and for even more professional use.

realdawei

While we’re at it let’s just cut to the chase and legislate that iPhone has to run Android OS. Big bad apple needs to be open I Say!

[Deleted User]

@realdawei said:
While we’re at it let’s just cut to the chase and legislate that iPhone has to run Android OS. Big bad apple needs to be open I Say!

I will never comeback to Android or Windows I prefer to go to Unix and write again some COBOL coding , I still have a 10 years unix destop coded to be a Firewall, like a tank if behind you use Mac OS or Ios. Door closed.

Samu

Forcing Android to run on iPhones would kill all the music apps in one go, good one...
...I won't touch an Android device even if I was paid to do so.
(Even the TV's based on Android TV are so full of bugs it's scary they are even allowed to be on the Market)

realdawei

@BerlinFx said:

@realdawei said:
While we’re at it let’s just cut to the chase and legislate that iPhone has to run Android OS. Big bad apple needs to be open I Say!

I will never comeback to Android or Windows I prefer to go to Unix and write again some COBOL coding , I still have a 10 years unix destop coded to be a Firewall, like a tank if behind you use Mac OS or Ios. Door closed.

Lol that reminds me. EU should absolutely legislate that COBOL should be an equal citizen in developing iOS. Swift is proprietary!! Unfair!

Also Xenix, Ubuntu, RedHat, BeOS we demand that they be downloadable, Installable on iPhone with 1 Click! We need to protect consumer choice! It’s an emergency!

[Deleted User]

@Samu said:
Forcing Android to run on iPhones would kill all the music apps in one go, good one...
...I won't touch an Android device even if I was paid to do so.
(Even the TV's based on Android TV are so full of bugs it's scary they are even allowed to be on the Market)

Agree , since 25 years ago Russian hackers stole digitally all my data to use my server to host piracy gaming I am paranoid. Thanks to them I learnt a lot about security. I develop my own security tools on Unix strong coding as I will never trust Antivirus software made by Norton , Kapersky ….