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Comparisons of Geo and Naada instruments in GeoShred with SWAM instruments

edited November 2023 in General App Discussion

There are a couple of threads mentioning GeoShred / Naada / SWAM instruments at the moment also I thought I would knock up a (first) quick video comparing the GeoTenorSax with the SWAM Tenor Sax.
I’ve no axe to grind, I have them both and both are excellent. When I get time I’ll do some more videos…. Shout if you want anything in particular 😊

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Comments

  • Interesting, thanks Tony. What do you think about the GeoSwam instruments vs their Naada equivalents. Off the top of my head, both have bass, cello and viola, if I remember. Then there are the Carnatic violins vs the regular Swm violins, there might be other overlaps I don’t remember too, in addition to these ones.

  • Good point @Gavinski , hadn’t thought of doing a comparison of the Geo vs Naada where there are the same instruments. There is an overlap with Violin, Viola, Cello and Double Bass as you say.
    Technically I believe the Naada instruments are more forgiving and (possibly) work better with non MPE controllers and they allow double stopping.
    I’ll see what I can knock up.

  • @GeoTony said:
    Good point @Gavinski , hadn’t thought of doing a comparison of the Geo vs Naada where there are the same instruments. There is an overlap with Violin, Viola, Cello and Double Bass as you say.
    Technically I believe the Naada instruments are more forgiving and (possibly) work better with non MPE controllers and they allow double stopping.
    I’ll see what I can knock up.

    You can play the Naada Instruments from wind controllers as well.

  • Is there a difference in polyphony, is it in geoshred? I’m not getting that nice raunchy double string cello pull hitting two notes (using iPad as controller in geo control)

  • So is the main benefit of having the actual SWAM instruments being able to tweak the parameters? Or are the parameter exposed in Geoshred as well?

  • @HotStrange said:
    So is the main benefit of having the actual SWAM instruments being able to tweak the parameters? Or are the parameter exposed in Geoshred as well?

    You can access some things but not as many. Tbh, in the audio modeling apps, I personally found that I didn't feel all that much need for the extra parameters, the instruments are already very expressive played with an MPE controller. If money is an issue and you have to chose between geoswam versions and the standalone swam apps, I reckon most ppl would be happy with the geoswam ones, and the bundles for those are mostly also a lot more appealing than the audio modeling bundles.

  • I’m finding the GeoShred instruments to get better results out of the box. I find the SWAM stuff requires more tweaking to get something that sounds realistic. So, the GeoShred equivalents are a better deal. I just cleaned up on all the Naada instruments and it’s the best collection of world instruments on my iPad and I have bought a lot in other apps.

    I’m also learning to really use the GeoShred features chasing after GeoTony and his wonderful mastery of this interface.

  • @McD said:
    I’m finding the GeoShred instruments to get better results out of the box. I find the SWAM stuff requires more tweaking to get something that sounds realistic. So, the GeoShred equivalents are a better deal. I just cleaned up on all the Naada instruments and it’s the best collection of world instruments on my iPad and I have bought a lot in other apps.

    I’m also learning to really use the GeoShred features chasing after GeoTony and his wonderful mastery of this interface.

    Thanks. I’m certainly interested in the realistic sounds but also love pushing modeled instruments as far as possible into the realm of pure weirdness haha are there enough parameters exposed in GeoSwam to push them into the weeds a bit?

  • @HotStrange said:

    @McD said:
    I’m finding the GeoShred instruments to get better results out of the box. I find the SWAM stuff requires more tweaking to get something that sounds realistic. So, the GeoShred equivalents are a better deal. I just cleaned up on all the Naada instruments and it’s the best collection of world instruments on my iPad and I have bought a lot in other apps.

    I’m also learning to really use the GeoShred features chasing after GeoTony and his wonderful mastery of this interface.

    Thanks. I’m certainly interested in the realistic sounds but also love pushing modeled instruments as far as possible into the realm of pure weirdness haha are there enough parameters exposed in GeoSwam to push them into the weeds a bit?

    Good point… I love pushing the PianoTeq 8 models so hard they sound like “world instrument” on another world.
    There are a massive array of FX inside GeoShred if that’s your thing. Making great sounding things sound strange.

  • @McD said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @McD said:
    I’m finding the GeoShred instruments to get better results out of the box. I find the SWAM stuff requires more tweaking to get something that sounds realistic. So, the GeoShred equivalents are a better deal. I just cleaned up on all the Naada instruments and it’s the best collection of world instruments on my iPad and I have bought a lot in other apps.

    I’m also learning to really use the GeoShred features chasing after GeoTony and his wonderful mastery of this interface.

    Thanks. I’m certainly interested in the realistic sounds but also love pushing modeled instruments as far as possible into the realm of pure weirdness haha are there enough parameters exposed in GeoSwam to push them into the weeds a bit?

    Good point… I love pushing the PianoTeq 8 models so hard they sound like “world instrument” on another world.
    There are a massive array of FX inside GeoShred if that’s your thing. Making great sounding things sound strange.

    Geoshred does have some really great effects. And I have a metric shit ton of AUV3 effects to mangle the sounds with as well.

    The standalone SWAM instruments seem great but as a total package I think the Geo versions are the way to go. Cheaper, comes with a great playing surface, and uses the built in effects.

  • @HotStrange said:

    @McD said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @McD said:
    I’m finding the GeoShred instruments to get better results out of the box. I find the SWAM stuff requires more tweaking to get something that sounds realistic. So, the GeoShred equivalents are a better deal. I just cleaned up on all the Naada instruments and it’s the best collection of world instruments on my iPad and I have bought a lot in other apps.

    I’m also learning to really use the GeoShred features chasing after GeoTony and his wonderful mastery of this interface.

    Thanks. I’m certainly interested in the realistic sounds but also love pushing modeled instruments as far as possible into the realm of pure weirdness haha are there enough parameters exposed in GeoSwam to push them into the weeds a bit?

    Good point… I love pushing the PianoTeq 8 models so hard they sound like “world instrument” on another world.
    There are a massive array of FX inside GeoShred if that’s your thing. Making great sounding things sound strange.

    Geoshred does have some really great effects. And I have a metric shit ton of AUV3 effects to mangle the sounds with as well.

    The standalone SWAM instruments seem great but as a total package I think the Geo versions are the way to go. Cheaper, comes with a great playing surface, and uses the built in effects.

    There are settings you can tweak in geoshred to tweak the models somewhat, yes, have not really played with that much but maybe others who have can comment on how far they go vs how far Swam or pianoteq go.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @McD said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @McD said:
    I’m finding the GeoShred instruments to get better results out of the box. I find the SWAM stuff requires more tweaking to get something that sounds realistic. So, the GeoShred equivalents are a better deal. I just cleaned up on all the Naada instruments and it’s the best collection of world instruments on my iPad and I have bought a lot in other apps.

    I’m also learning to really use the GeoShred features chasing after GeoTony and his wonderful mastery of this interface.

    Thanks. I’m certainly interested in the realistic sounds but also love pushing modeled instruments as far as possible into the realm of pure weirdness haha are there enough parameters exposed in GeoSwam to push them into the weeds a bit?

    Good point… I love pushing the PianoTeq 8 models so hard they sound like “world instrument” on another world.
    There are a massive array of FX inside GeoShred if that’s your thing. Making great sounding things sound strange.

    Geoshred does have some really great effects. And I have a metric shit ton of AUV3 effects to mangle the sounds with as well.

    The standalone SWAM instruments seem great but as a total package I think the Geo versions are the way to go. Cheaper, comes with a great playing surface, and uses the built in effects.

    There are settings you can tweak in geoshred to tweak the models somewhat, yes, have not really played with that much but maybe others who have can comment on how far they go vs how far Swam or pianoteq go.

    Thanks. Seems like the trade off is depth of editing vs depth of playability. Both seem great for sure.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:
    So is the main benefit of having the actual SWAM instruments being able to tweak the parameters? Or are the parameter exposed in Geoshred as well?

    You can access some things but not as many. Tbh, in the audio modeling apps, I personally found that I didn't feel all that much need for the extra parameters, the instruments are already very expressive played with an MPE controller. If money is an issue and you have to chose between geoswam versions and the standalone swam apps, I reckon most ppl would be happy with the geoswam ones, and the bundles for those are mostly also a lot more appealing than the audio modeling bundles.

    I am not really familiar with how to tweat to get a really good sound, but at least for string instruments, I need some basic control on "attack", "release", "vibrato", and also "volume" for crescendo and decrescendo hopefully. May I know if Geoswam would have good control on these basic parameters? Thanks.

  • Also worth saying that, for me personally, I enjoy the geoswam instruments more than their Naada equivalents. Naada are great for the non western instruments but Geoswam is better than Naada for cello, viola etc, imo

  • @KCL627 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:
    So is the main benefit of having the actual SWAM instruments being able to tweak the parameters? Or are the parameter exposed in Geoshred as well?

    You can access some things but not as many. Tbh, in the audio modeling apps, I personally found that I didn't feel all that much need for the extra parameters, the instruments are already very expressive played with an MPE controller. If money is an issue and you have to chose between geoswam versions and the standalone swam apps, I reckon most ppl would be happy with the geoswam ones, and the bundles for those are mostly also a lot more appealing than the audio modeling bundles.

    I am not really familiar with how to tweat to get a really good sound, but at least for string instruments, I need some basic control on "attack", "release", "vibrato", and also "volume" for crescendo and decrescendo hopefully. May I know if Geoswam would have good control on these basic parameters? Thanks.

    Remember that these are modeled instruments so I don't know if there is any knob or whatever to tweak attack and release. I've never noticed them though if they are there someone will be along soon to say so, I'm sure. Instead though, the way to do that would be the same as with the actual instrument. Imagine with an actual violin, for example, there is no attack or release knob. You would just play more quietly and then swell at a certain speed, to get an attack, and do the opposite to get release. You control these swells through either finger expression on the keys - pressing lower on the key the amplitude is lower and rises as you swipe up the key, etc - or through the xy pad.

    If you directly hit a key near the top you immediately have full volume with no attack time etc.

    Obviously use of a big reverb can help you get some kind of long tails etc.

    Attack and release are needed on a piano because there is no aftertouch, but they are not needed on mpe instruments. Tremolo is done by small vertical movements on keys, vibrato by small horizontal movements. Probably wise to take a look through the online manual I guess, and maybe watch some vids 👍

  • Are the Geoshred bundles only available if I’ve upgraded to Pro? Liking the look of these Naada instruments

  • @Kashi said:
    Are the Geoshred bundles only available if I’ve upgraded to Pro? Liking the look of these Naada instruments

    It seems from the appstore description for Geoshred play that they are available. https://apps.apple.com/app/geoshred-play/id1227932062

    I don’t know what happens if you then upgrade to Pro though, for example, can u take those with you? @moForte will know. It’s probably in an faq somewhere too. This is the only thing with Geoshred, stuff like this can be a bit complex, from memory, so best to double check

  • I think swam allow double stopping. :)

    I play swam through velocity kb as it’s better than both.

    I have come to enjoy geoshred a lot though - i think they maybe didn’t have y axis stuff at first, i could be wrong though. I just remember finding it not particular expressive and not knowing why people liked it when vel kb is around, but now it’s great

    Very possible I’m wrong though

  • @Gavinski Cool, cheers Gav. I'll wait and see if I win them on your Insta giveaway, and then decide!

  • @wingwizard said:
    I think swam allow double stopping. :)

    I play swam through velocity kb as it’s better than both.

    I have come to enjoy geoshred a lot though - i think they maybe didn’t have y axis stuff at first, i could be wrong though. I just remember finding it not particular expressive and not knowing why people liked it when vel kb is around, but now it’s great

    Very possible I’m wrong though

    Pretty sure it always had the y axis stuff as an option. Before tho I think you had to turn it on in many patches as they were maybe not set to use finger expression by default, instead you used the xy pad for that, but the finger expression option was just a button press away. At least, it was like this for the geoswam instruments, before they came out I never really used geoshred

  • @Gavinski said:

    @wingwizard said:
    I think swam allow double stopping. :)

    I play swam through velocity kb as it’s better than both.

    I have come to enjoy geoshred a lot though - i think they maybe didn’t have y axis stuff at first, i could be wrong though. I just remember finding it not particular expressive and not knowing why people liked it when vel kb is around, but now it’s great

    Very possible I’m wrong though

    Pretty sure it always had the y axis stuff as an option. Before tho I think you had to turn it on in many patches as they were maybe not set to use finger expression by default, instead you used the xy pad for that, but the finger expression option was just a button press away. At least, it was like this for the geoswam instruments, before they came out I never really used geoshred

    Oh cool. I probably just moved on when realising I didn’t detect velocity through how hard I tapped without investigating everything else. I really need that for touch playing.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @KCL627 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:
    So is the main benefit of having the actual SWAM instruments being able to tweak the parameters? Or are the parameter exposed in Geoshred as well?

    You can access some things but not as many. Tbh, in the audio modeling apps, I personally found that I didn't feel all that much need for the extra parameters, the instruments are already very expressive played with an MPE controller. If money is an issue and you have to chose between geoswam versions and the standalone swam apps, I reckon most ppl would be happy with the geoswam ones, and the bundles for those are mostly also a lot more appealing than the audio modeling bundles.

    I am not really familiar with how to tweat to get a really good sound, but at least for string instruments, I need some basic control on "attack", "release", "vibrato", and also "volume" for crescendo and decrescendo hopefully. May I know if Geoswam would have good control on these basic parameters? Thanks.

    Remember that these are modeled instruments so I don't know if there is any knob or whatever to tweak attack and release. I've never noticed them though if they are there someone will be along soon to say so, I'm sure. Instead though, the way to do that would be the same as with the actual instrument. Imagine with an actual violin, for example, there is no attack or release knob. You would just play more quietly and then swell at a certain speed, to get an attack, and do the opposite to get release. You control these swells through either finger expression on the keys - pressing lower on the key the amplitude is lower and rises as you swipe up the key, etc - or through the xy pad.

    If you directly hit a key near the top you immediately have full volume with no attack time etc.

    Obviously use of a big reverb can help you get some kind of long tails etc.

    Attack and release are needed on a piano because there is no aftertouch, but they are not needed on mpe instruments. Tremolo is done by small vertical movements on keys, vibrato by small horizontal movements. Probably wise to take a look through the online manual I guess, and maybe watch some vids 👍

    This blow my mind! 😃
    That means the key factor is the MPE controller indeed. (or just use the geoshred control surface)

  • @KCL627 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @KCL627 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:
    So is the main benefit of having the actual SWAM instruments being able to tweak the parameters? Or are the parameter exposed in Geoshred as well?

    You can access some things but not as many. Tbh, in the audio modeling apps, I personally found that I didn't feel all that much need for the extra parameters, the instruments are already very expressive played with an MPE controller. If money is an issue and you have to chose between geoswam versions and the standalone swam apps, I reckon most ppl would be happy with the geoswam ones, and the bundles for those are mostly also a lot more appealing than the audio modeling bundles.

    I am not really familiar with how to tweat to get a really good sound, but at least for string instruments, I need some basic control on "attack", "release", "vibrato", and also "volume" for crescendo and decrescendo hopefully. May I know if Geoswam would have good control on these basic parameters? Thanks.

    Remember that these are modeled instruments so I don't know if there is any knob or whatever to tweak attack and release. I've never noticed them though if they are there someone will be along soon to say so, I'm sure. Instead though, the way to do that would be the same as with the actual instrument. Imagine with an actual violin, for example, there is no attack or release knob. You would just play more quietly and then swell at a certain speed, to get an attack, and do the opposite to get release. You control these swells through either finger expression on the keys - pressing lower on the key the amplitude is lower and rises as you swipe up the key, etc - or through the xy pad.

    If you directly hit a key near the top you immediately have full volume with no attack time etc.

    Obviously use of a big reverb can help you get some kind of long tails etc.

    Attack and release are needed on a piano because there is no aftertouch, but they are not needed on mpe instruments. Tremolo is done by small vertical movements on keys, vibrato by small horizontal movements. Probably wise to take a look through the online manual I guess, and maybe watch some vids 👍

    This blow my mind! 😃
    That means the key factor is the MPE controller indeed. (or just use the geoshred control surface)

    Yes! Also though remember that many of these instruments are just monophonic or duophonic, so not like typical synth strings or wind instruments presets you might be used to!

  • @Gavinski said:
    Yes! Also though remember that many of these instruments are just monophonic or duophonic, so not like typical synth strings or wind instruments presets you might be used to!

    The monophonic limitation of the SWAM string instruments is the biggest disappointment for me. The GeoShred interface is perfect for "bowing" two or more strings at a time.

  • @jamietopol said:

    @Gavinski said:
    Yes! Also though remember that many of these instruments are just monophonic or duophonic, so not like typical synth strings or wind instruments presets you might be used to!

    The monophonic limitation of the SWAM string instruments is the biggest disappointment for me. The GeoShred interface is perfect for "bowing" two or more strings at a time.

    I would like that ability too, actually. Have you ever asked for it?

  • A few people have asked about the tweakable parameters in GeoShred vs SWAM so here is a quick video showing those for the Tenor Sax in GS and SWAM. Couple of things to note…
    Firstly in SWAM the parameters with a padlock against them are not currently available to be tweaked. Theoretically they are subject to a future IAP but I wouldn’t hold your breath + I suspect they are pretty niche.
    Secondly, each SWAM instrument exposes all of their parameters as MIDI controllable parameters. In GS however, due to there being thousands of parameters, many of them being dependent on the instrument being played you have to add the parameter(s) you want to the GS control surface. This takes a few seconds so is not really an issue. Up to 14 parameters may be added to the surface + the XY / Poly Expression pad can have any parameter(s) added to it.

  • More information is available
    here… the GeoShred online help system
    https://www.moforte.com/geoShredAssets6000/help/

    and here… for the excellent videos that Pat from MoForte produces
    https://www.youtube.com/@GeoShred/videos

    and here… for the SWAM documentation
    https://audiomodeling.com/support/manuals/

  • @HeavyWater mentioned polyphony… the SWAM instruments where you would expect some form of polyphony I.e. the stringed instruments, do offer up to two note polyphony. Various options are available which are explained in the manual linked above. Similarly the Naada stringed instruments allow double stopping I.e. two note polyphony. The Geo… equivalents are restricted to single notes.

  • edited November 2023

    @KCL627 mentioned "attack", "release", "vibrato", and also "volume". @wingwizard also mentioned velocity. @Gavinski is absolutely correct with his answer.
    These are all a byproduct of the controller being used rather than the instruments in GeoShred.
    If using GS itself as the controller you can control and tweak all of these things e.g. the y axis controls the volume by default. You can switch this off so that the same velocity is sent irrespective of where you hit the note or you can define the Velocity Curve yourself so that e.g rather than going from 0 to 127 it could you from 83 to 42 (if you see what I mean)

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